Sugar and diet

[street]

Calories are about weight, but it’s way more difficult to eat in a nutritionally sound way. You can eat something like 2,000 calories a day and lose weight, but if it’s all rice, you’re not going to be very healthy.

Doesn't a normal average person need to intake ~2000 calories a day to just maintain body, mind and doing normal daily activities?

 

[Jerry1]

Doesn't a normal average person need to intake ~2000 calories a day to just maintain body, mind and doing normal daily activities?

The 2000 is just a place holder. Obviously, depending on current weight that number would have to be different for each person. I probably should have use a variable like “X” calories.

Main point is that you have to eat with nutrition in mind.

 

[street]

^ true, and I wasn't questioning you just confirming the approximant 2000 Cal just to keep what you have and to stay healthy and alive.

 

[street]

I don't count calories, but I can gauge somewhat close in calorie numbers at day end if I want to see where I was that day.
My way of looking at the ~2000 Cal number is that anything over that 2000 is going to added weight and more than you need to stay the same. So, the 2000 Cal a day I personally don't even think about that portion or what food makes up that number but the number over 2000 is where the concern is for me. Like I said before I eat anything I want in that 6 hour time slot when I eat. It works for me.

 

[Aerides]

Maybe it’s not a calculator. It is, however, a machine. One that operates on the principles of chemistry and thermodynamics.

There may be some middle ground where CICO works, for some, but it's hardly a principle for one-size-fits-all.

You are presumably male, so you did not grow up with incessant articles about 1200 calorie diets, which proliferated in women's publications (and probably still do). Restrictive eating "guides" like this promote anorexia and other disorders. Less dramatically, one easily reaches a point of fatigue where the body starts to shut down to preserve energy. Cold, brain fog, etc., are frequent symptoms of too-low of a caloric intake.

The "machine" has a failure point and shuts down. It's not simple and linear.

Not everything about dietary guidelines is about weight loss. Indeed, the very concept of weight loss ignores that most humans want to preserve lean muscle mass, maintain hydration and bone density, while only losing excess fat. And yet we focus on the number on the scale, which is often useless. BMI was invented by a math guy, not a doctor. "lose weight!" is catchier, I guess, than "reduce body fat!"

Besides, for many, there are a plethora of benefits to reducing sugar. But all things must factor in your overall diet, lifestyle, etc.

 

[mountainsoft]

One of my BP meds caused me to have irregular heartbeats (PAC's). My doctor recommended that I reduce my caffeine intake. My primary source of caffeine was from iced tea and cola's. I gave up the iced tea and tried to find caffeine free soft drinks I could tolerate. Unfortunately, all of the caffeine free sodas were loaded with sugar (even more than the Coke I was drinking previously). So I thought I would try the "Zero Sugar" soft drinks. While they don't have the same gross aftertaste as "diet" sodas, the flavor is still a little off. But, I stuck with it and so far I have tolerated the switch OK.

I drink a lot of beverages during the day, always have (at least a 2-liter per day, plus water). I thought I might lose a few pounds by cutting out that daily dose of high fructose corn syrup, but a month later I still weigh the same as I did before (with no other changes).

Granted, I still eat plenty of other items with sugar, but my goal was to limit caffeine intake, not to lose weight. It was just surprising since I've always been told my soda habit contributed to my weight. My glucose and A1C readings have always been fine despite my daily sugar intake.

 

[RetiredHappy]

The body processes carbs differently from protein and fats. Carbs are first made available in the blood stream to be used and any unused sugar in the blood are immediately stored as fats. Protein is the next fuel alternative for the body and then lastly fats, unless you get into ketosis, and that's when the body learns to make use of fats for energy. Ketosis was first thought to be dangerous for the body but now no one knows anymore.

Obviously eating more calories than the body consumes will result in weight gain. Since the body processes carbs, proteins and fats differently, restricting carb intake is the most effective way to drop weight. I have been counting calories and carb intake for the past 20 years and I can tell you that a calorie from carb is different from protein and fats. I have to restrict both caloric and carb intake to manage weight. I have never been overweight, mainly because I have never allowed myself to get my BMI to above 23. Whenever I got to 22.5, I would get disciplined with weight management. My BMI is now 21.5 and would like to get back to around 19. With respect to calorie intake, on non-golf days, I keep it to between 1200 to 1500. On golf days I manage food intake to 2000 calories.

 

[Time2]

There may be some middle ground where CICO works, for some, but it's hardly a principle for one-size-fits-all.

Yes, I seeing that the type of food matters in that it affects metabolism.

"The source of calories has different effects on your metabolism

Foods affect your metabolism differently. For instance, some require more work to digest, absorb, or metabolize than others. The measure used to quantify this work is called the thermic effect of food (TEF).
The higher the TEF, the more energy a food requires to be metabolized. Protein has the highest TEF, while fat has the lowest. This means that a high-protein diet requires more calories to be metabolized than a lower-protein diet does (2Trusted Source, 3Trusted Source).
This is why eating protein is often said to boost your metabolism to a greater extent than eating carbs or fat. That said, when it comes to weight loss, the TEF of foods appears to have only a small effect on your calorie balance (27Trusted Source, 28Trusted Source, 29Trusted Source)."


Here's the source of the quote, you need to read about half way before they start mentioning types of food and that they matter. The first half starts off sounding like CICO, but then adds they additional piece.


https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/counting-calories-101#TOC_TITLE_HDR_7

 

[chassis]

There may be some middle ground where CICO works, for some, but it's hardly a principle for one-size-fits-all.

You are presumably male, so you did not grow up with incessant articles about 1200 calorie diets, which proliferated in women's publications (and probably still do). Restrictive eating "guides" like this promote anorexia and other disorders. Less dramatically, one easily reaches a point of fatigue where the body starts to shut down to preserve energy. Cold, brain fog, etc., are frequent symptoms of too-low of a caloric intake.

The "machine" has a failure point and shuts down. It's not simple and linear.

Not everything about dietary guidelines is about weight loss. Indeed, the very concept of weight loss ignores that most humans want to preserve lean muscle mass, maintain hydration and bone density, while only losing excess fat. And yet we focus on the number on the scale, which is often useless. BMI was invented by a math guy, not a doctor. "lose weight!" is catchier, I guess, than "reduce body fat!"

Besides, for many, there are a plethora of benefits to reducing sugar. But all things must factor in your overall diet, lifestyle, etc.

CICO works for all. It’s a simple concept. It may indeed have non-linear and inconstant behavior. No one suggested otherwise, agree?

Many people don’t understand their own bodies. The body (chemical-thermodynamic machine) doesn’t read dietary literature or compare notes with friends, relatives and photos of magazine cover boys/girls.

Drugs and disorders affect the machine. The human may not be aware of, understand, or act in a way that accounts for drugs or disorders. The chemical-thermodynamic machine will do it anyway.

Regarding counting calories, it’s the same. People who “don’t count calories” should have no doubt that their chemical-thermodynamic machines will count the calories for them.

 

[Turbo29]

CICO works for all. It’s a simple concept. It may indeed have non-linear and inconstant behavior. No one suggested otherwise, agree?

Many people don’t understand their own bodies. The body (chemical-thermodynamic machine) doesn’t read dietary literature or compare notes friends, relatives and photos of magazine cover boys/girls.

Drugs and disorders affect the machine. The human may not be aware of, understand, or act in a way that accounts for drugs or disorders. The chemical-thermodynamic machine will do it anyway.

Regarding counting calories, it’s the same. People who “don’t count calories” should have no doubt that their chemical-thermodynamic machines will count the calories for them.

Many who claim to be gaining weight on 1200Kcal/day are grossly underestimating their intake. Are they using a food scale to weigh everything they eat? Or are they just eyeballing the food and saying, "Yep, 3oz of x food," when in reality they have 8oz on their plate.



[MOD EDIT]

 

[chassis]

Many who claim to be gaining weight on 1200Kcal/day are grossly underestimating their intake. Are they using a food scale to weigh everything they eat? Or are they just eyeballing the food and saying, "Yep, 3oz of x food," when in reality they have 8oz on their plate.



[MOD EDIT]

Excellent post, fully agree.

It’s awareness of caloric value of food being consumed, and the self-accountability of consuming calories to the extent weight is maintained, that results in weight maintenance.

Again, exercise is a necessary ingredient. Someone who says, “I eat really well but can’t lose weight” is a person who eats too much and exercises too little.

 

[chassis]

I’m not @Irishgirlyc58, but I agree. To lose weight you must have a net calorie deficit, it doesn’t matter where the calories come from. It would be possible to lose weight eating nothing but cookies, as long as you consumed fewer calories than you burned. You probably wouldn’t feel good and it’s certainly not a healthy diet, but the math works.

Cutting carbs and sugar works because at the end of the day, you’ve consumed fewer calories. Replacing carbs with fats keeps you satiated longer without the blood glucose swings.

I’m in the process of shedding the eight pounds I found over the holidays. I love to bake and used the season as an excuse to indulge in that hobby. Unfortunately not all of the goodies went to friends and I overindulged, so now I need to pay the price. MyFitnessPal works for me; I track the calories in vs burned and shoot for ~300 calorie deficit daily.

Great real world example.

 

[jollystomper]

I have a sweet tooth but I do to try to manage my refined/added sugar intake along the daily recommended guidelines, as I learned more about its dangers. Cutting out sugared sodas and drinks was probably half of my weight loss in retirement (and improved dental results as well).

I do find the zero sugar sodas and drink packets tasty and with no aftertaste. I primarily drink decaffeinated tea, and my one concession to sugar drink is my Arnold Palmer mix: 2/3 decaf iced tea sweetened with erithrytol (it tastes a lot like sugar to me and has no aftertaste), 1/3 great value lemonade (sugared but relatively low with hfcs). However, with all of these drink, my practice is to (a) alternate 16 oz of water with 16 oz of any of these drinks, and (b) drink water only with any meals.

The majority of my snacking is fruit - oranges, pineapple, strawberry, blueberries, bananas. I figure the sugar in them ins "better" than the refined/added sugar. These do not impact my weight. I will also blend some combination of the above fruits into a smoothie with protein powder and a zero sugar sports drink.

Being active definitely helps. In the summer, when I am golfing 3-4 days a week and at the gym on the other days, I have trouble keeping weight on even when going into "give in to snack temptation" mode. According to fitbit I am burning over 4K calories on those days, and I just cannot eat that many calories in. This time of the year is the most "dangerous", but adding swimming to my winter activities is helping.

I will still indulge in "unhealthy" snacks if my weight is in the lower range of my desired weight, but will do so in moderation. I still need some aspect of my life to live dangerously .

 

[tmm99]

18 months ago I decided that old, fat people with chronic conditions weren’t doing so well with Covid. The only item I controlled was my weight. So I lost 50lbs. I have always exercised. I eat 1600 calories a day except for one day a week when I don’t keep track. I was able to get off of one of my 2 HBP medications. I also quit drinking at the same time. I have a few pieces of candy every night included in my calories.

Wow, that's an amazing weight loss you achieved in such a long time!

 

[athena53]

Here are two more links to Peter Attia interviews about the health affects of Fructose.

https://peterattiamd.com/rickjohnso...utm_content=220207-pod-rickjohnson-email-subs

I just started on that one. They get VERY deep into the weeds of biochemistry but Dr. Attia is really good about saying "Let's make sure I understand this.." and then boiling it down into stuff the rest of us can understand. What I'm getting so far:

A calorie is NOT a calorie.
Not all sugar calories are alike. Fructose is worse than the rest. (Table sugar is a combination of fructose and sucrose.) Studies (although many so far are animal studies) show that fructose (including additional fructose the body makes from other sugars) can put your body into "survival mode", making you want to eat more and slowing down your metabolism. Fructose from whole fruit is less likely to have this effect. High-fructose corn syrup is the most evillest sweetener of all.

And that's only the first hour of the podcast. I also recommend Robert Lustig's "Fat Chance" on the same subject.

 

[braumeister]

CICO works for all. It’s a simple concept.

Smug oversimplifications are unhelpful.

 

[MRG]

Many who claim to be gaining weight on 1200Kcal/day are grossly underestimating their intake. Are they using a food scale to weigh everything they eat? Or are they just eyeballing the food and saying, "Yep, 3oz of x food," when in reality they have 8oz on their plate.



[MOD EDIT]

+1

A food scale is mandatory for accurate measurement of calories or ingredients. Guess what fellow Americans our measurement system suck. Throw out those inaccurate cups and get with grams.

 

[timbervest]

Mod note:
Naked link deleted.

 

[caninelover]

I found myself at my heaviest ever weight last fall, and my annual physical returned some elevated blood glucose and cholesterol levels. I decided to make a change.

Like many - I drastically cut back on all the 'white' stuff - sugar, pasta, bread. The bulk of this change was switching to black coffee in the mornings (vs. sugar and half-and-half before). The cravings for the first 2-3 weeks were intense in the morning but the results I was getting kept (and continue to) encouraging me to power through the cravings. I've lost 15 lbs so far and am still steadily dropping. We swapped out our once a week 'regular' pasta night with zoodles and turkey meatballs, with a homemade marina sauce. Instead of sandwiches for lunch, I eat salads. We don't have pizza regularly but will enjoy it out from time to time, and I try to order a cauliflower crust if its on the menu. I cut out all sugared soft drinks and drink water or herbal tea during the day (after my morning black coffee). I do eat some dark chocolate daily (> 70% cacao) to help curb my sweet tooth.

I don't really 'count' carbs but this is how I eat on a regular basis. I do consume 'healthy' carbs mostly in the form of beans, but avoid bread, pasta, and added sugar. Now if we go out to a nice restaurant - we might splurge on a pasta dish, or a starchy side dish, and a dessert. But just not part of our weekly at-home rotation anymore.

I feel so much better at this weight (the lowest I've weighed in 5 years) and my at-home blood glucose numbers are now back in the normal range.

So I guess my point is cut way back on the stuff we all know we should eat less of - sugar and refined carbs. Way back doesn't mean zero, but it does mean way back. Which of the bad stuff you cut out completely vs. enjoy occasionally is up to you. You may find it more worthwhile to eliminate pasta, but eat a little bread. Or eliminate sodas but have a teaspoon of sugar in your coffee. Everyone is different. The best thing to do is start with a small change, see how it works, then do more and bigger changes if you like.

It is hard at first but worth it.

 

[Retch The Grate]

Yeah, I have to cut out carbs to lose weight, basically no more bread, sugary foods, etc for me and trying to watch rice and milk while still getting to have some stuff I like (sushi and chocolate milk made with sugar free syrup) to ameliorate feelings of deprivation. And I have to lose weight to get my liver less fatty. :/ Trying, but it is harder than the last time I took off serious amounts of weight, not sure I approve of these metabolic changes of aging.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

Calories play a role in weight loss but there seem to be many more factors at play - "Six years after dramatic weight loss on the TV show "The Biggest Loser," most contestants in a recent study had regained the pounds - and on top of that, their metabolism had slowed and they were burning fewer calories every day than they did before their stint on the show. https://www.scientificamerican.com/...r-metabolism-is-slower-and-weight-is-back-up/

Some people lose weight when given zinc or vitamin D, but not changing their diets or calorie intakes. Higher uric acid levels seem to be linked to more weight gain. Stomach bacteria play a role. Some of the food we ingest actually gets eaten by our stomach bacteria. Ginger and green tea can help with weight loss. There's probably hundreds of factor on Pubmed.

I'm not on this program, but Day Two has this to say, "Every person is unique, and how food impacts blood sugar is different from one individual to the next. DayTwo gives you insight into how your body uniquely metabolizes food, and gives you the tools you need to manage blood sugar through food choice." https://www.daytwo.com/patients/

 

[Irishgirlyc58]

Maybe it’s not a calculator. It is, however, a machine. One that operates on the principles of chemistry and thermodynamics.

@Irishgirlyc58 do you agree?

But those aren’t the only principles our bodies operate on.
I don’t quite agree with the analogy that our bodies are machines either.
We have the ability for critical thinking and emotions.
Saying that it’s calories in/calories out doesn’t take into consideration the social and sometimes emotional reactions humans- and probably other animals I’m assuming- have with food. We can’t separate our minds from our bodies (yet) and therefore should look at the entire body.

To say it is “as simple as that” is like me telling an alcoholic struggling to just not drink. It’s that simple. For me it is because I rarely if ever drink. But other people have a different attachment to alcohol than I do. But I wouldn’t be taking that into account.

I am enjoying the discussion on metabolism and how what type of foods we eat makes a difference.

I will say if I only ate 1200 calories a day I would absolutely lose weight- when I gnawed off my arm from hunger!
I have to have approximately 1500-1600/day. I’m sure that will decrease with age but that’s how I am now.

 

[Irishgirlyc58]

Does anyone remember when fat was the “enemy” and all kinds of diet books came out telling us what to eat to eliminate fat from our diets?
I was about 30 at the time and at work with several people. We determined from one of the diet books that we could eat marshmallows and drink beer. [emoji23]

 

[Dash man]

High fructose corn syrup is the worst thing you can consume and it’s in many processed foods. It’s a major cause of high triglycerides that can lead to heart disease. Things like pasta and bread in moderation are not bad, but of course excess amounts can hurt.
My digestive system is intolerant to fructose and lactose, so I have to be very careful of what I eat. Many common vegetables and fruit contain fructose requiring me to avoid or limit my intake. Since I learned and modified my diet to avoid fructose and lactose, bread and pasta along with meats have become my staples, with small portions of vegetables that have lower fructose content.
My triglycerides have dropped and my weight is stable. My doctor is pleased with my bloodwork. So avoiding every “white” food is not the issue. Avoid any highly processed foods, especially with additives like high fructose corn syrup.

 

[chassis]

But those aren’t the only principles our bodies operate on.
I don’t quite agree with the analogy that our bodies are machines either.
We have the ability for critical thinking and emotions.
Saying that it’s calories in/calories out doesn’t take into consideration the social and sometimes emotional reactions humans- and probably other animals I’m assuming- have with food. We can’t separate our minds from our bodies (yet) and therefore should look at the entire body.

To say it is “as simple as that” is like me telling an alcoholic struggling to just not drink. It’s that simple. For me it is because I rarely if ever drink. But other people have a different attachment to alcohol than I do. But I wouldn’t be taking that into account.

I am enjoying the discussion on metabolism and how what type of foods we eat makes a difference.

I will say if I only ate 1200 calories a day I would absolutely lose weight- when I gnawed off my arm from hunger!
I have to have approximately 1500-1600/day. I’m sure that will decrease with age but that’s how I am now.

This is the important point.

The machinery is real. I left out "electro". The body is an electrochemical machine that abides by the laws of thermodynamics.

The emotional part of the picture needs also to be dealt with. An earlier post in this thread that described a person who perceived to have 3oz. of food on the plate when in fact 8oz. was there is a hypothetical, and credible and likely every day example. This example points out a person that is potentially in denial (emotional work to be done) or unaware (educational work to be done).

Is self control of value in any facet of life? Money? Food? Human relationships?

One needs to govern oneself in all of these areas.