Better definition of investment risk

Risk means losing money (or purchasing power, as inflation kicks in) you need to live the way you want.

If you’re all in “no risk” TBills at <1% while inflation runs 10%, you’ve actually got return free risk. Lol.
 
Risk means losing money (or purchasing power, as inflation kicks in) you need to live the way you want.

If you’re all in “no risk” TBills at <1% while inflation runs 10%, you’ve actually got return free risk. Lol.

It all depends on how much ya got and what your withdrawal rate is. There are many, some here some on other forums who openly refer to having rather large stashes but live on 1% or some freakishly small withdrawal. So, inflation might not be a factor the way some think volatility is not a factor. Your money bouncing up and down hard enough often enough can cut into survivability the same way inflation can. Likewise starting with enough and tapping little enough is like having infinity bucks with the world's worst AA.
 
Risk means losing money (or purchasing power, as inflation kicks in) you need to live the way you want.

If you’re all in “no risk” TBills at <1% while inflation runs 10%, you’ve actually got return free risk. Lol.

Well said. In current environment it is crazy to be in cash and bonds.

 
Risk means losing money (or purchasing power, as inflation kicks in) you need to live the way you want.
I would agree with that definition, but I haven't seen that represented as a single number. And maybe it can't be, because of what needs to go into the calculation.

Maybe instead of volatility, risk should be measured in "sequence of returns" risk? The chance crashes early in retirement permanently lower the safe withdrawal rate of a portfolio.


There are many, some here some on other forums who openly refer to having rather large stashes but live on 1% or some freakishly small withdrawal.
This might be an apt categorization of my portfolio, where it takes freakish events before I encounter risk. I had planned a normal withdrawal rate, but a couple events dramatically lowered it. I moved from high to low cost of living, and then invested well when the market lost it's mind.

It's possible a measure of risk exists but doesn't include outliers. That would be fine, too - I'd use that measure of risk to help newer investors, even if it didn't apply to me.
 
@DjBrown what is your recommendation rather than holding cash? SCHD?

Anything that is inflation resistant: Equity index funds small, mid, large, international, US, developed, emerging. A bit of gold and real estate.

Anything but cash and bonds. If high yield is something you need then something like SCHD, KO or VYM would be much better option than some bond fund.
 
Since I withdraw annually, I think of my investment risk in terms of annual volatility*, or how much my nest egg could potentially drop over a year. Then it’s just a matter of how well I could survive such a drop due to the decreased income the next year. And this could happen several years in a row. I’ve run models and understand what the worst case historical scenarios are.

*Plus inflation risk although that is mitigated by having a sufficient equity allocation.
 
Well said. In current environment it is crazy to be in cash and bonds.

Everything is way bid up. I don’t see how equities are any safer.

I just stick with my all-weather AA.
 
Last edited:
Well said. In current environment it is crazy to be in cash and bonds.
That Ray Dalio video is from "Mar 27, 2021", almost 10 months ago.

Look at how Vanguard Total Bond performed over the past 12 months. When Mr Dalio made that video, bonds had just crashed. So he said bonds were not a good thing to own... and then for the 4 months after his video, bonds recovered and did well. I wouldn't call his advice on bonds very helpful.

Mr Dalio ran the Bridgewater hedge fund for a long time, which did very well for his investors. I'm just not sure he can predict every macro decision correctly.

It seems like he's over-reacting to events? Like after the March 2020 crash, he predicted an even bigger crash caused by cycles and super cycles. Yet nothing of that sort happened in 2021.
 
That Ray Dalio video is from "Mar 27, 2021", almost 10 months ago.

Look at how Vanguard Total Bond performed over the past 12 months. When Mr Dalio made that video, bonds had just crashed. So he said bonds were not a good thing to own... and then for the 4 months after his video, bonds recovered and did well. I wouldn't call his advice on bonds very helpful.

Funny that is exactly what I did and I concluded he was right on the money. BND was a dog in past 12 months.

I should add inflation since then skyrocketed just as he predicted.
 
Last edited:
Funny that is exactly what I did and I concluded he was right on the money. BND was a dog in past 12 months.
Why are you measuring BND's performance from before his prediction? He doesn't get to predict the past! Bonds had already crashed when he posted that video on March 27, 2021. After his video, bonds recovered nicely - the opposite of his prediction.
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/bnd?ltr=1
 
Last edited:
Why are you measuring BND's performance from before his prediction? He doesn't get to predict the past! Bonds had already crashed when he posted that video on March 27, 2021. After his video, bonds recovered nicely - the opposite of his prediction.
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/bnd?ltr=1

March 27th 2021 BND 84.50
Today. BND 83.64

Deduct from it 6% inflation. By my math it is today worth about 78.50 in March 27th 2021 dollars.
Is this what one calls "recovered nicely"?
Do you think some superb year 2022 is in front of BND? I don't.

You are correct though that if you look at 12 months picture is even more bleak. From 87 bucks it went to 78 bucks in inflation adjusted dollars. Not something that I would call "low risk" investment.
 
Last edited:
March 27th 2021 BND 84.50
Today. BND 83.64

Deduct from it 6% inflation. By my math it is today worth about 78.50 in March 27th 2021 dollars.
Is this what one calls "recovered nicely"?
Do you think some superb year 2022 is in front of BND? I don't.

I've heard multiple people talk about why they continue to hold bonds. This thread being the 1st to say anything about recovering nicely.

I'm with you -- & fed seems to agree
 
March 27th 2021 BND 84.50
Today. BND 83.64
...
Do you think some superb year 2022 is in front of BND? I don't.
That's not how bonds work. You can't select prices and ignore the interest generated between those two dates, like you just did. A bond fund generates interest, which you ignored. Add back in interest, and it has a positive return over that time, and not as you claimed "BND was a dog in the past 12 months"

Funny that is exactly what I did and I concluded he was right on the money. BND was a dog in past 12 months.
 
I've heard multiple people talk about why they continue to hold bonds. This thread being the 1st to say anything about recovering nicely.

I'm with you -- & fed seems to agree
I did not say you should continue to hold bonds.

My comment about recovery was meant to refer to my earlier comment, which was more specific: I meant the several months after Ray Dalio's prediction.

So he said bonds were not a good thing to own... and then for the 4 months after his video, bonds recovered and did well. I wouldn't call his advice on bonds very helpful.
 
I did not say you should continue to hold bonds.

My comment about recovery was meant to refer to my earlier comment, which was more specific: I meant the several months after Ray Dalio's prediction.

Thanks for clarification -- now I'll clarify my comments.

I didn't say you said that. My point was that there has been a lot of discussion in recent time about bonds & what place they have in someone's portfolio. Different people have different needs, time horizons, etc. Lots of people have been defending their reasoning. Through what I've seen, I don't recall anyone else saying bonds have recovered nicely, etc. That's all.

Djbrown had 2 questions & clearly stated his opinion...which I agreed with.

I hadn't done the math on BND's performance. I did see your post about "adding back in" the interest; not really sure what that means, but I assume it means reinvest. So, I looked at a couple of sources for approximate time frames. Haven't found one yet that gives a "positive return over that time" as was suggested. Even if it did, that would be nominal -- not real return.

Were Dalio's comments helpful to me? Kinda hard to say for me since they're almost a year old. I didn't listen to all of it (I didn't hear him give explicit time delimiters for example), but I understood it. On both his inflation & bond/cash comments. I was of like mind in March 2021 & so perhaps easy for me to get it. With hindsight, I don't see any data to show he wasn't right in this case. I know many disagree with anything/everything he says.

But to each his own. At least his own opinion & data is what it is regardless.

Happy investing!
 
That's not how bonds work. You can't select prices and ignore the interest generated between those two dates, like you just did. A bond fund generates interest, which you ignored. Add back in interest, and it has a positive return over that time, and not as you claimed "BND was a dog in the past 12 months"

You are correct about adding back yield. That would make BND today worth about 80.50 in March 2021 dollars a bit less in January 2021 dollars.

It is still a dog that lost money in last 12 months since 12 months ago it was worth about 87 bucks. This is no surprise since bonds usually don't perform well in high inflation, very low rates and future rising rates environment.
 
Last edited:
EOI PDI JEPI for monthly income

Bottom line is most folks need some bond/monthly income to smooth out drawdowns, 2 of the 3 above have been time tested and JEPI is new but backed by 4 Billion in AUM and JP Morgan wealth mgmt puts their best clients in JEPI.

I look at these fixed income plays as "PRE-BUYING" the return of the S&P 500....so you get between 6 and 10% yearly divy income that is of course taxable plus with some luck and time, the principal actually GROWS as well over time. To each their own, but this is what I'm doing....
 
You could have a look into Value at Risk.https://www.investopedia.com/terms/v/var.asp

From that article:

"The financial crisis of 2008 that exposed these problems as relatively benign VaR calculations understated the potential occurrence of risk events posed by portfolios of subprime mortgages. Risk magnitude was also underestimated, which resulted in extreme leverage ratios within subprime portfolios. As a result, the underestimations of occurrence and risk magnitude left institutions unable to cover billions of dollars in losses as subprime mortgage values collapsed"

You could argue the same thing happened with meme stock GameStop (GME) during Jan 2021. No sudden spikes upwards for a long time, then a short squeeze costing hedge fund billions of dollars - much larger than their positions or expected risk.
 
You are correct about adding back yield. That would make BND today worth about 80.50 in March 2021 dollars a bit less in January 2021 dollars.

It is still a dog that lost money in last 12 months since 12 months ago it was worth about 87 bucks. This is no surprise since bonds usually don't perform well in high inflation, very low rates and future rising rates environment.
Are we discussing bond performance after Ray Dalio's video? You keep bringing up bond performance before his video - predicting the past is not interesting. I predict high growth, high P/E stocks will do badly last month - I'm right! That's what you're applying here, when you talk about bond performance which Ray Dalio already saw when he made the video. It's not relevant to his prediction.

I rarely see anyone factor inflation into performance. I suspect if I went through your past posts, I would almost never see it factored into performance. It looks like you're trying to be right about bonds using inflation. After Ray Dalio's Mar 27 prediction, bonds went up for a few months. As of now, they are up very slightly from their start when you include interest in their total return. That is not "a dog", which I usually see ascribed to poor performance over many years.

People who bought 10% treasury bonds in the 1980s did extremely well, so high interest rates by themselves are not the problem. Repeated rate inflict losses on bonds equal to their duration, although the loss isn't uniform across all durations. The last point that bond rates are low, in my opinion, was caused by a Fed mistake.

Early in 2021, the Fed called inflation transitory. Chair Powell only admitted that as a mistake in November, after it was clear to everyone the Fed was wrong. The Fed predicted 2 rate hikes in 2022 back then, which has gone up every month to the current 2 rate hikes. The Fed is playing catch up.
 
Bottom line is most folks need some bond/monthly income to smooth out drawdowns, 2 of the 3 above have been time tested and JEPI is new but backed by 4 Billion in AUM and JP Morgan wealth mgmt puts their best clients in JEPI.

I look at these fixed income plays as "PRE-BUYING" the return of the S&P 500....so you get between 6 and 10% yearly divy income that is of course taxable plus with some luck and time, the principal actually GROWS as well over time. To each their own, but this is what I'm doing....
JEPI is not a fixed income ETF, it's an equity ETF. It's 80% equities. In 2021 it's performance was 21.5% versus the stock market's 25.7% (VTI). Where did you see the claim that fund is fixed income?
 
Haven't found one yet that gives a "positive return over that time" as was suggested. Even if it did, that would be nominal -- not real return.
Ray Dalio did not predict "nominal" performance from bonds, he said it would be much worse than usual. So if you agree bonds didn't do much, then it follows that Ray Dalio's March 27 2021 prediction for bonds was wrong.

BND closed on Mar 26 2021 at $83.28, right before Ray Dalio's weekend prediction. It is currently $83.56, which is higher. You can check Yahoo Finance for that data, under historical data.
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/BND/history?p=BND

But that ignores interest, which Vanguard displays under "distributions" on it's website. I count $1.53073 of interest and gains since Mar 27 2021. So that needs to be added back to the $83.56 share price to get the total return.
https://investor.vanguard.com/etf/profile/distributions/bnd

$83.56 + $1.53 = $85.09
And now the performance: 85.09 / 83.28 = 1.02117, or +2.2%

A return of 2.2% is not a disaster, so from the data I conclude Ray Dalio was wrong.
 
Last edited:
Thoughts on PDI and EOI?

JEPI is not a fixed income ETF, it's an equity ETF. It's 80% equities. In 2021 it's performance was 21.5% versus the stock market's 25.7% (VTI). Where did you see the claim that fund is fixed income?

Thank you for correcting me on JEPI, its not fixed income. Thoughts on PDI and EOI? JEPI is still useful for monthly income in retirement, rather than selling 4% a year of VTI....right?
 
Back
Top Bottom