Stock Picking (Beat Boho) Contest - V2.0

Sigh. And, pray tell, how is this relevant? Or to put it another way, how come you are behind nunnunn, instead of in 3rd place?

-ERD50

It shows all I needed to do was rely on my stock picking ability and set some kind of consistent "sell at" order or similar safeguard for each trade, then I wouldn't have had one huge loss that erased all of my gains. It's not really hard to make money with a 89% record but there are still ways to screw it up that are easy to fix.
 
It shows all I needed to do was ....

Quite honestly, you sound like a Kindergartner.

... rely on my stock picking ability and set some kind of consistent "sell at" order or similar safeguard for each trade, ...

Then why didn't you?

... then I wouldn't have had one huge loss that erased all of my gains ....

But you did.

... It's not really hard to make money with a 89% record . ...

Yes, it is, and you are living proof.


... but there are still ways to screw it up ...

And there always will be.


... that are easy to fix.

Then why didn't you?

I thought you had this all figured out with your Rock-Papers-Scissors smarter than everyone strategy before the contest started?

So I expect a straight up shot to the moon from you now that you have it figured all out and it's easy. You should reach the top in another month or two, right?

:popcorn:

-ERD50
 

That study that Kiplenger covered was pretty well done and considered relevant enough to conduct and publish. Throw out whatever information you want but that's no way to learn. You're taking a simplistic look at things.

I still don't use the robotic system that may have worked because I know it doesn't have to be that robotic but I've said I have tweaked things. Win or lose I'm doing something right and if I don't tweak the right things (which I think I have as evidenced from the last year of trading, particularly the past two months), that doesn't mean I can't make it work with an 89% success rate in stock picking.
 
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I can see it now

BUY MY BOOK AND LEARN THE SECRETS OF MY SYSTEM THAT PRODUCES 89% WINNING TRADES!!!!!!
 
I can see it now

BUY MY BOOK AND LEARN THE SECRETS OF MY SYSTEM THAT PRODUCES 89% WINNING TRADES!!!!!!

:LOL:

Subtitled:

"And still not beat the market!!! *"


*("Past performance is no guarantee of future results." if you are lucky!)

And Boho - if you are serious, there is a difference between X% right, and profiting from those X% right over and above the 100%-X% that are wrong. And a further difference between profiting, and beating the market.

-ERD50
 
That study that Kiplenger covered was pretty well done and considered relevant enough to conduct and publish. Throw out whatever information you want but that's no way to learn. You're taking a simplistic look at things. ...

On a more serious note, I took a more detailed look at the study. I really can't agree that is was 'well done' or has much meaning at all. It was a general look at the gurus market predictions, with all sorts of if/ands/buts in their methodology. The most important, IMO:

Some forecasts may be more important than others, but all are comparably weighted. In other words, measuring forecast accuracy is unlike measuring portfolio returns.

Well, results is really the only measurement that matters. It's even more important than the excuses/trade ratio! :) That's undefined for nunnun - zero excuses divided by zero trades?

So the guru makes a bear/bull forecast, with some vague time frame and %. But what did they do? When did they buy/sell, or sell/buy, or sit it out? You can get a general forecast right, but get in/out at sub-optimal times.

Simple example, for a guru who is only right 25% of the time:

Declares a bear 3 times, takes no action, and the markets drops, and then returns. Declares a bull one time, leverages it, and gets out at a good enough time to beat the market by a large margin. His 25% accuracy was poor by that measure, his results were great.

And Boho's results are poor, even with an 89% "got out of the trade at a profit" measure. And how many of those were out at a market-beating profit? And how many losers are held right now? Without that, and weighting, it is meaningless. Results take all this into account, with no fudge, no fog.

-ERD50
 
Results take all this into account, with no fudge, no fog.

I came into this contest with a few months experience. I think I was behind nunnun after the first year of the contest. For the year ending a couple of weeks ago I believe I gained more than nunnun for the year. I'm probably behind nunnun for the year now. It's hard to say who's better at this point. I don't want learning points forever but I don't think the performance of any of the gurus was looked at when they had four months trading experience.
 
I came into this contest with a few months experience. I think I was behind nunnun after the first year of the contest. For the year ending a couple of weeks ago I believe I gained more than nunnun for the year. I'm probably behind nunnun for the year now. It's hard to say who's better at this point. I don't want learning points forever but I don't think the performance of any of the gurus was looked at when they had four months trading experience.
Boho, did you just say that you didn't know what you were getting yourself into?

Because you sure seemed to know when the contest was set up.

No excuses.
 
Your excuses/trade ratio just increased by one excuse.

And it was your (2nd) contest. If you wanted a warm up period, you should have called a future date for the contest (can't we consider the 1st contest your warm up?).

-ERD50
 
I think it was Boho's hubris that started this whole silly thing.....
 
It's not the number of contests, it's the time involved that counts for experience.

So, you want to ignore my stock picking success rate AND how good I've been this past year. Fine, just don't expect to convince me of my lack of skill.

As for whether it's been a "no news" weekend, I don't think it has, with headlines like "Schumer: Trump's 'temper tantrum' over wall funding is leading to shutdown" and "White House prepares for shutdown as both sides dig in over Trump’s wall" so you could add that to my excuses/trade ratio.
 
I think it was Boho's hubris that started this whole silly thing.....


Yep.

This contest got started as rather than reading Boho's posts, self exclaiming how he has a special stock picking skill, how does that go?, "Put up or ... " :LOL:.
 
I don't think I even made any claims about my ability before the first contest started, aside maybe for what I've actually achieved in real life and my public predictions on this forum that turned out to be correct. I think I was saying maybe stock picking could work and people interpreted it as something more.
 
I don't think I even made any claims about my ability before the first contest started, aside maybe for what I've actually achieved in real life and my public predictions on this forum that turned out to be correct. I think I was saying maybe stock picking could work and people interpreted it as something more.






This is what we are convinced you are trying to do:


For me it's about how well I do compared to a real world benchmark. If everyone looks at each other's trades and trades in weird ways, that just means that I won't care what their results are. As long I know I'm better than one of those index funds. And the more better, the better.


Currently, you are NOT performing better than the said "index funds", yet you keep saying you are....
 
Currently, you are NOT performing better than the said "index funds", yet you keep saying you are....

How could I even say I am if I'm not. I speak the truth. I just said like two days ago that I'm behind.
 
How could I even say I am if I'm not. I speak the truth. I just said like two days ago that I'm behind.


Oh, like this little nugget?!



My skills transcend math. In the contest I try to buy about $200,000 - $300,000 of each of my stocks by adjusting the maximum down a bit. I'm often off since the max depends on volume and I'm lazy with the math but I'm still gaining ground.



People who time the market like myself think they know when cash is good, and we need cash for trading, but I actually changed my trading because of what I heard about cash being a drag. I try to stay more invested than I used to. That's one of the reason's I bought an index fund in this contest a few times and why I was intending to hold an international fund for a decent amount of time (I changed plans about the latter).
 
It's well documented that I could make numbers bend from the shear force of my talent. Look it up.

I believe it!

Now, if you could only learn to make them bend in the right direction! :LOL:

-ERD50
 
This has been an interesting game so far. I thought I might get some insight into the other player's stock picking and market strategy thought process; but instead I'm getting the feeling that many on this forum (maybe most?) don't pick stocks or have a market strategy. If there is a 'market strategy' these folks follow, it's to buy the index and forget about it.

Am I wrong about this?

To me, the idea that an intelligent investor can do no better than the market average is like telling a bright high school student that it's pointless to try to achieve better than the average GPA because, on average, each student will just achieve the average. :(

I know there are many studies out there showing that the pros don't do better than the average and there is the famous bet Warren Buffet made using indexes against a fund manager. ERD50, you've made a strong case here and I'm sure you'll cite more examples.

That being said, I would think many on the Early Retirement Forum are here because of better than average stock picking and market strategy. Are we all just super frugal savers and not awesome investors?
 
Is there a thread yet about the guy who recently said people shouldn't invest passively because too much of that is messing up the market? I haven't read much about the consequences of everyone being passive.
 
This has been an interesting game so far. I thought I might get some insight into the other player's stock picking and market strategy thought process; but instead I'm getting the feeling that many on this forum (maybe most?) don't pick stocks or have a market strategy. If there is a 'market strategy' these folks follow, it's to buy the index and forget about it.

Am I wrong about this? ...

I think it is generally true. There are always exceptions, and there is a 'stock pickers' thread. I try to stay out, because I'll just end up telling them they are playing the wrong game, but that is their game, so I try to refrain. There's also a subset that believe dividend paying stocks have some magic, but I have yet to see the numbers back that up.


... To me, the idea that an intelligent investor can do no better than the market average is like telling a bright high school student that it's pointless to try to achieve better than the average GPA because, on average, each student will just achieve the average. :( ....

It seems perfectly reasonable that a pro will do better - that is our experience in most things. But when you dig in a bit, you realize that beating the market involves predicting the future, which is a skill set no one seems to have. It isn't good enough to identify 'good' stocks, or 'good stocks to buy', because all the pros are trying to do that. So you'd have to out-pick the pros. But wait, studies show that most pros can't do it reliably!

... That being said, I would think many on the Early Retirement Forum are here because of better than average stock picking and market strategy. Are we all just super frugal savers and not awesome investors?

Many of us are awesome investors! We keep our money working in broad-based index funds. No sector selecting, no timing, just boring 'buy the market' and hold on.

Now there are a few (a very few, a 'handful'?) that claim to be able to stock pick and/or time the market successfully. Maybe they can, who knows? The only way we could tell is to audit them over a 10 year period or so, and that's not going to happen. Only a couple are in this contest. But this contest is too short to tell us much.


Is there a thread yet about the guy who recently said people shouldn't invest passively because too much of that is messing up the market? I haven't read much about the consequences of everyone being passive.

There have been a few threads on that. I never did look into it much. My gut says if passive got to the point of affecting the market, there would be opportunities for someone, or some computer. That would create more active investing, and that would be eating up the opportunities, until there were no opportunities, and active investing would dry up again. It would be self-correcting. Too many eyes and computers on the market to miss something. And they will spot it before you and I do - maybe they already did?

There's some AI fund now, heard it wasn't doing so well.

-ERD50
 
Now there are a few (a very few, a 'handful'?) that claim to be able to stock pick and/or time the market successfully. Maybe they can, who knows? The only way we could tell is to audit them over a 10 year period or so, and that's not going to happen. Only a couple are in this contest. But this contest is too short to tell us much.
-ERD50

Who knows? I think I do! :) How about Warren Buffett, Benjamin Graham, Peter Lynch, John Templeton, John Bogle, ....? I could go on.. There are plenty of great stock pickers out there that actually beat the market over very long periods of time.

I think people get wild speculation schemes mixed up sound investment strategies. The legends out there didn't get famous by buying indexes and holding. Yes, I know you will say that some of the famous investors I've quoted above actually advise the 'average investor' to buy and hold the indexes (Bogle in particular). But hey, games like this one can test you to see if you can beat the average! :cool:
 
Who knows? I think I do! :) How about Warren Buffett, Benjamin Graham, Peter Lynch, John Templeton, John Bogle, ....? I could go on.. There are plenty of great stock pickers out there that actually beat the market over very long periods of time.

I think people get wild speculation schemes mixed up sound investment strategies. The legends out there didn't get famous by buying indexes and holding. Yes, I know you will say that some of the famous investors I've quoted above actually advise the 'average investor' to buy and hold the indexes (Bogle in particular). But hey, games like this one can test you to see if you can beat the average! :cool:

Yes, but wasn't Buffet actively involved in some of those companies? And didn't Lynch hang it up while he was winning (smart - go out on a high note)? And in [-]Bogle[/-] Buffet's recent bet with a hedge fund manager, he went B&H index - if he was so confident in his abilities, why didn't he go active?

And, unfortunately, we can't rule out survivor bias - you won't find too many lists of the losers. If these winners are 'proof', do the losers disprove anything?

And of course, I would never say that no one can do it. I fully expect that some will, and have done it. But how can we ever know if it is skill? There are a lot of stock picking monkeys plunking away at typewriters, there will be extreme winners/losers on the Z-tails of the distribution.

So the thought process is fun, but when it comes to my money, I get pragmatic real quick. What is actionable? How would I really go about beating the market? I'd want to see a system with a proven track record and enough logic to it to convince me it could persist.

If you have that system and documentation, please PM me. If we let everyone know, it won't work! ;) And don't tell Boho! :LOL:

-ERD50
 
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