The Volkswagen Whee ..

[harley]

If prices for these used VW diesels are really headed to the cellar , I will be looking to pick one up, being the cheap ass I am. I have no doubt VW will come up with a compliance / retrofit strategy.

Don't be hard on yourself. You're not cheap.

 

[Texas Proud]

Strangely enough, when VW had trouble meeting Tier II Bin 5 emission standards in 2007 - 2008 and did not sell a TDI those years, the price of older TDI's went up, not down.

There may be panic sellers of the 2009 - 2015 TDI's, but the owners that don't get them re-flashed with the coming "fix" (that will effectively de-tune the performance), will probably see their cars value stay high.

I'm keeping my 2014 Passat that gets almost 50 MPG on the highway and 42+ around town.

Since this is a known problem, I would bet that the states that do emission testing will require that the fix be done in order to pass.... if I were in state legislature that is what I would propose...


Heck, if I could, I would make the shop doing the testing actually test to make sure that the fix was done and not rely on a sticker showing it was done... there is enough computing power now a day to make that an easy check...

 

[aja8888]

Since this is a known problem, I would bet that the states that do emission testing will require that the fix be done in order to pass.... if I were in state legislature that is what I would propose...


Heck, if I could, I would make the shop doing the testing actually test to make sure that the fix was done and not rely on a sticker showing it was done... there is enough computing power now a day to make that an easy check...

In Texas, and a lot of other states, emission testing for diesels is not required for the annual inspection process. Here, (Texas) they just conduct a $14 safety check. A good thought, though.

I suppose there are too many diesel class vehicles (trucks) that are exempt from EPA emission standards to justify expensive test equipment that is not the same as for gas engines.

This all may change in the future.

 

[Texas Proud]

In Texas, and a lot of other states, emission testing for diesels is not required for the annual inspection process. Here, (Texas) they just conduct a $14 safety check. A good thought, though.

I suppose there are too many diesel class vehicles (trucks) that are exempt from EPA emission standards to justify expensive test equipment that is not the same as for gas engines.

This all may change in the future.

Wow... they test my engine.... but they use the onboard computer to do so...

I just looked.... I do not see an exemption for the diesel.... do they not have the OBDII?


TxDPS - FAQs: OBDII Emissions Testing

 

[Totoro]

Why do we pay more for diesel than gasoline; the opposite of Europe? Why can we always find a good turbo diesel in Europe that gets great gas mileage while at the same time those cars aren't sold in USA?

Those two are related: the answer is taxation, both relative (diesel vs. gasoline) as absolute (Europe has much higher taxes on fuel, so better mileage has a bigger impact on total cost).

 

[Rick_Head]

I just wonder how they could keep it secret for so long. There must be more than "3" people who program the computers on said cars. I've worked on embedded systems in the past (although few and far between). Most were fairly small but I suspect an ECM doesn't have much code. Why did it take this long. Surely, if they didn't pay off the code-monkeys, the blackmail might have started. If not the code-monkeys, the spec writers. There had to be at least 100 people who knew what was going on.

OOC, since I'm retired, I asked DS who writes embedded code for such varied things as cable TV switching equipment, GPS locating devices (included in every new Peterbuilt truck) and a few other things. His opinion was that it he was programming an ECM, he would have had to know he was breaking the rules if he knew the rules.

But it nothing else, it provides a reason to pay more for "fine German engineering".

 

[Totoro]

Reminds me of the saying:

It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!

 

[Texas Proud]

I just wonder how they could keep it secret for so long. There must be more than "3" people who program the computers on said cars. I've worked on embedded systems in the past (although few and far between). Most were fairly small but I suspect an ECM doesn't have much code. Why did it take this long. Surely, if they didn't pay off the code-monkeys, the blackmail might have started. If not the code-monkeys, the spec writers. There had to be at least 100 people who knew what was going on.

OOC, since I'm retired, I asked DS who writes embedded code for such varied things as cable TV switching equipment, GPS locating devices (included in every new Peterbuilt truck) and a few other things. His opinion was that it he was programming an ECM, he would have had to know he was breaking the rules if he knew the rules.

But it nothing else, it provides a reason to pay more for "fine German engineering".

You also have to put in the realm of possibilities that the code was outsourced to a Chinese company and those code writers just did what they were told and might not have known what was happening...

 

[timo2]

This really isn't a life or death issue, except maybe for stockholders. No car explosions, ignitions turning off, unintended accelerations, and so on. I have one of the Golfs in this category. It's not like they are 'coal rollers'. Since I'm not planning on selling the vehicle, I'll just hang out and see what happens. I expect the software fix may affect performance, but so what.

It does seem there is a curse to being the number one automobile company. Toyota, GM, and VW all have had that title and all took a hard fall.

 

[easysurfer]

I don't have any articles to back me up, but I remember over the last decade or so VW was making a lot of noise about becoming the largest car company in the world. And they did it, just recently. I suspect this cheat was a part of that drive.

We've got a VW Beetle TDI that we love. It's a 2002, so it's not part of this problem. We've been spending a lot of time researching it's eventual replacement, and were pretty firmly in the VW TDI camp again. We loved the combination of mpg, performance, and environmental friendliness. After this betrayal we won't be looking at VW again, probably for at least a decade. Even if they stay in business after the fallout, their loyal customer base is gone.

We're now leaning toward the Mazda 3. Everybody we know that has one says they get much higher mileage than what's on the sticker. If anybody knows anything bad about them I'd be interested.

Will be interesting to see if after the fallout, VW tries to make a turnround as the most honest auto company around to win back loyalty. Similar to GM after the faulty ignition switches on their Cobalt. I've never owned a VW or GM, but would consider a GM in the future as I liked the way GM's CEO Mary Barra went about have a recall after another in an attempt to transform GM into honest and safe car company.

 

[samclem]

The older cars are not using SCR and there may not be an easy fix for those cars. Those may be bought back by VW and the owner's compensated. This is the thinking here in the U.S. (TDI Club members). This is speculation right now.

Buying the cars back would sure be expensive. Maybe VW will offer to compensate owners for diminished value (thus making them whole) and also pay for installation and maintenance of pollution control devices on some other sources of particulates (fixed power plants, etc) that will theoretically reduce total particulates to the level they would have been if the cars polluted at the allowed level (this compensating for the environmental damage these cars will continue to cause).

The only parties then left uncompensated are the other car companies who played by the rules and lost business to VW. Don't expect any government effort to fix that.

It remains to be seen how compliance with the fixes will be verified (owners obviously have an incentive not to get it done if it decreases mileage/performance). I'd guess that the feds might cut highway funds/etc to states that don't set up a mechanism to deny registrations to vehicles that haven't been [-]neutered[/-] fixed by a VW dealer. That wouldn't stop owners from having them changed back on their own dime.

If the "fixes" to engine computer controls bring down mileage in order to meet NOX targets, it means the car is burning more fuel and possibly producing more of other emissions. Even if the other emissions are within the EPA limits, the overall result could be a net decrease in air quality. I hope somebody is studying those tradeoffs, but I doubt we'll do anything that nuanced.

Silver lining: This may point out to the public the tradeoffs in performance, economy, and other pollutants that result from our present pollution control approach. Maybe we'll see some changes.

 

[utrecht]

Waiting for someone to blame the the Patriots........

Hmmmm, does Robert Kraft have any large interest in VW stock? This could be like the Kevin Bacon game. Try to link anything and everything to the Pats

 

[eytonxav]

Outright fraud, not looking good to the VW empire.

 

[someguy]

At least in CA, once a recall is issued CARB won't pass vehicles without emissions-related recall(s) applied. Apparently, they will get a list of VINs from VW so they will be able to identify vehicles without it and deny the ability to register or re-register it.

 

[Running_Man]

In an ultimate hubris, VW apparently has grabbed 51 million in government environmental credits for making diesel engines in the US which "exceeded" US government minimums, for purchasers of their cars.!!

Taxpayers wasted $51 million on VW diesel credits

 

[cathy63]

We're now leaning toward the Mazda 3. Everybody we know that has one says they get much higher mileage than what's on the sticker. If anybody knows anything bad about them I'd be interested.

I love mine! My 2015 hatchback is getting about 31mpg on my commute (So Cal traffic), but I got 42mpg on a road trip where I was on an interstate using cruise control most of the way. That beats our Ford C-Max Hybrid for that type of driving, though the C-Max is definitely superior for stop-and-go driving.

If I had to give a negative ... the door pockets are oddly shaped and hard to use. They're sleeves that will only hold a bottle of water. I was used to putting misc papers, sunglasses, my work badge, etc in the drivers door pocket on my old car and all that stuff now has to go somewhere else and I keep forgetting where I put things.

 

[travelover]

Sure hope this doesn't cause the CEO to resign....ooops , too late.

 

[MichaelB]

Sure hope this doesn't cause the CEO to resign....ooops , too late.

You should have spoken up sooner.

 

[Texas Proud]

I did read an article (do not have it now) that said that states could easily determine if a vehicle did not get the fix and not let it get re-registered...


I do not think that any offset should be done... fix the cars... and if you cannot fix them, take them off the roads...

I am not concerned with making it easy on a company that committed fraud... not something that came up later, but was designed to do the fraud...

Some might think it is the same when a car company tries to hide a defect... like the sudden acceleration or the key problem... to me that is not as bad... those were problems that arose after going on the market, not one put in specifically by the company....

 

[aja8888]

Some might think it is the same when a car company tries to hide a defect... like the sudden acceleration or the key problem... to me that is not as bad... those were problems that arose after going on the market, not one put in specifically by the company....

I think it's only as bad, or worse, when people are killed from the result of "defect". Weren't people killed from GM's ignition switch cover up?

Not defending VW here, and they did wrong, very wrong, but no one has died from the re-code switch. All they did was fraudulently violate the U.S. emission standards testing protocol for that class of vehicle.

For those no knowing the whole story, here is a guide to "Diesel-Gate":

http://jalopnik.com/your-guide-to-dieselgate-volkswagens-diesel-cheating-c-1731857018

 

[Lakewood90712]

The internal investigation at VW is complete, and the corporate communications officer spoke about the issue at a press conference today.

RIP John Banner. Long gone, A truly good man

 

[samclem]

Not defending VW here, and they did wrong, very wrong, but no one has died from the re-code switch.

I wouldn't be surprised if people died, and that others were sickened as a result of this VW fraud. People do die of respiratory problems made worse by higher NOx levels, and there's no doubt these cars contributed to increasing those levels. Figuring out the exact mortality/morbidity would be a good subject for an epidemiological study. I sure don't think we can say now that VW's fraud didn't kill anybody, and it's possible the number will be higher (but less directly attributable on an individual case basis) than more well-known instances of safety-related auto defects.

 

[easysurfer]

VW's cheating might end up making consumers avoid diesel cars:

VW's cheat may throw doubt into consumers' minds as to whether any diesel car is actually providing the benefits its manufacturer claims, but Boehman noted that consumers really have no recourse except to "rely on the EPA to validate the emissions of the vehicles."

For Volkswagen owners, the scandal is only growing bigger. On Tuesday, VW said the software at the center of the emissions scandal is fitted in 11 million of its cars across the globe. The automaker had previously said the software was installed in 482,000 passenger cars sold in the U.S.

​Will VW's emissions scandal burn diesel cars? - CBS News

You know, as in one rotten apple spoils the bunch.

 

[aja8888]

I wouldn't be surprised if people died, and that others were sickened as a result of this VW fraud. People do die of respiratory problems made worse by higher NOx levels, and there's no doubt these cars contributed to increasing those levels. Figuring out the exact mortality/morbidity would be a good subject for an epidemiological study. I sure don't think we can say now that VW's fraud didn't kill anybody, and it's possible the number will be higher (but less directly attributable on an individual case basis) than more well-known instances of safety-related auto defects.

The amount of excess NOx put out by these cars over the period on non-compliance is minuscule compared to the other NOx sources in the U.S that are emitting on an ongoing basis, some on a constant basis. So directly attributing a death to the subject emissions is a challenge for sure.

If human harm were suspect, or alleged, the NHTSA organization would be involved like they were with GM (actual deaths) and Toyota (unintended acceleration issues, and deaths).

In any event, no direct (or indirect) loss of human life has been alleged as of yet. That may change as Dieselgate moves along.

 

[Texas Proud]

I think it's only as bad, or worse, when people are killed from the result of "defect". Weren't people killed from GM's ignition switch cover up?

Not defending VW here, and they did wrong, very wrong, but no one has died from the re-code switch. All they did was fraudulently violate the U.S. emission standards testing protocol for that class of vehicle.

For those no knowing the whole story, here is a guide to "Diesel-Gate":

Your Guide To Dieselgate: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe 

I am not saying that the deaths are not a tragedy.... and I agree that a cover up is pretty bad... but the GM problem was errors that came to light after the fact... it is not like (IIRC) the Pinto where they decided not to put in a $5 part knowing that there would be a number of deaths but the cost was 'manageable'....


I think VW will have problems with consumers for decades to come.... people remember these things....

I would be interested in a diesel, but the price for one is just too high compared to the ICE.... kinda like the hybrid....