Thoughts on TESLA

[NW-Bound]

Well, did the owner read the fine print? Or was there any contract or manual at all?

 

[samclem]

Well, did the owner read the fine print? Or was there any contract or manual at all?

Yep, I'll bet it's all covered in there. Maybe Tesla's general counsel Mr Butswinkas penned it during his two months on the job.

 

[ERD50]

But that guy owns the car. He bought it with the understanding that the Supercharger charge rate would be X. Tesla Inc has modified his car, without his consent, so that it only charges at .75 X.

Who really owns the car?

It has certainly lost a lot of resale value unless Tesla deigns to restore it to the capabilities it formerly had. Does he get compensated for that?


True, this is not a giant issue affecting many owners. But the whole principle of remote centralized "tweaking" of cars without the permission (or knowledge) of owners is going to have to be addressed, I would think. It's similar to Apple's decision to slow down the performance of older iPhone models.

I'm not saying that this guy can't/shouldn't be upset about it. I'm in-line with your later point, that it isn't a big issue for Tesla, or EVs in general.

I'm not sure it matters, but is this even 'remote tweaking'? Or is the algorithm built into the car from day 1, it just doesn't start to trigger until X conditions are met?


-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

... I'm not sure it matters, but is this even 'remote tweaking'? Or is the algorithm built into the car from day 1, it just doesn't start to trigger until X conditions are met?

Tesla car software does the "ET call home" all the time to report back the operating condition, from what I have read. And the company is also proud of frequent software update to correct "deficiencies".

It is not implausible that Tesla detects cars getting their batteries worn out, and projects the aging rate to a budget-crunching massive warranty repair. Uh oh. Time to throttle them back.

It would be not at all acceptable if some cars are singled out for throttling, not because their operating conditions are excessive, but because their particular batteries are "lemon". I read the thread from teslamotorsclub.com, and posters there have all different experiences. Makes me wonder if some poor guys get penalized with throttling simply because their batteries are defective.

 

[samclem]

It would be not at all acceptable if some cars are singled out for throttling, not because their operating conditions are excessive, but because their particular batteries are "lemon". I read the thread from teslamotorsclub.com, and posters there have all different experiences. Makes me wonder if some poor guys get penalized with throttling simply because their batteries are defective.

Yes, and regardless of the cause of the battery degradation (manufacturing defect? Storage temperature? Discharge rate and depth history? Charge rate and max charge history?) Tesla could be ratcheting down the car's capability (and utility) to assure the battery pack survives the warranty period.


Also, relevant to some earlier posts here, it was interesting to read what Tesla owners think about their cars as cross-country vehicles:

Road tripping in my Telsa already takes 2x as long as a gas car, but now it's taking even longer. I can't imagine wanting to take this car on any further road trips at this point.

Not all comments were negative, some folks mentioned that they enjoy stopping and letting the dog play around at the dog park while the car charges up, etc.

 

[bobandsherry]

Not good news for Tesla:

Tesla shares fall after Consumer Reports says it will no longer recommend Model 3

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/21/tes...-consumer-reports-new-reliability-survey.html

 

[oneill225]

Not good news for Tesla:
Tesla shares fall after Consumer Reports says it will no longer recommend Model 3
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/21/tes...-consumer-reports-new-reliability-survey.html

Whiplash. A week ago (and probably today, as well) the Tesla Model 3 was rated number one in owner satisfaction by Consumer Reports. Now, the car cannot even be recommended. I fear Consumer Reports is trying to stay relevant and in the news.

https://insideevs.com/tesla-model-3-consumer-reports-owner-satisfaction-win/

 

[REWahoo]

Whiplash. A week ago (and probably today, as well) the Tesla Model 3 was rated number one in owner satisfaction by Consumer Reports. Now, the car cannot even be recommended. I fear Consumer Reports is trying to stay relevant and in the news.

Might be educational if you read the CR write-up. The change in recommendation came from surveying Tesla owners:

Tesla’s Model S sedan lost its recommendation largely because of suspension problems reported by CR members in the survey.

 

[oneill225]

Tesla's Competition

More proof that Tesla is confounding legacy car makers in Europe. Thousands of Teslas are now pouring into their home market.

https://electrek.co/2019/02/21/tesla-top-priority-automakers-bmw-dealer-model-3-affecting-sales/

https://insideevs.com/aerial-image-shows-tesla-ship-to-europe/

 

[oneill225]

Might be educational if you read the CR write-up. The change in recommendation came from surveying Tesla owners:

I stopped reading Consumer Reports about 15 years ago.

 

[Chuckanut]

Not good news for Tesla:

Tesla shares fall after Consumer Reports says it will no longer recommend Model 3

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/21/tes...-consumer-reports-new-reliability-survey.html

Good grief! I hope Tesla is not going the way of GM. Shades of my Pontiac! (The car that made me swear of GM products for life.)

Oh, wait. The article mentions this:

While many Tesla owners may not be happy about the reliability of their car, Consumer Reports says those owners are generally satisfied with their electric vehicles.
"They like their cars, but they still tell us the truth. They tell us the problems they are having with them," said Fisher.

I guess Telsa has a ways to go before it hits the low standard GM set for my Pontiac and customer satisfaction. Time will tell.

I'm glad to see CR is willing to shift with the data and not feel they have to go along with their past views or current thinking if the data shows a change. Good for them.

 

[bobandsherry]

Whiplash. A week ago (and probably today, as well) the Tesla Model 3 was rated number one in owner satisfaction by Consumer Reports. Now, the car cannot even be recommended. I fear Consumer Reports is trying to stay relevant and in the news.



https://insideevs.com/tesla-model-3-consumer-reports-owner-satisfaction-win/

Enough of a whiplash that the stock is down over $10 today.

But there's a difference between asking people if they like their car and then looking at factual data that highlights actual problems with the car. For example, person could have have failures with their car and Tesla gives them a car to use, so they remain "happy" and "satisfied". But that doesn't negate that they had a flaw and/or failure and therefore the reliability of the car.

 

[NW-Bound]

Not good news for Tesla:

Tesla shares fall after Consumer Reports says it will no longer recommend Model 3

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/21/tes...-consumer-reports-new-reliability-survey.html

To be fair, the above article says this:

While many Tesla owners may not be happy about the reliability of their car, Consumer Reports says those owners are generally satisfied with their electric vehicles.

"They like their cars, but they still tell us the truth. They tell us the problems they are having with them," said Fisher.

If car buyers like their cars enough to overlook some problems, there's nothing wrong with that. Cars with even worse reliability problems still have fans, we all know that.

What I find more interesting is this:

a Tesla spokesperson said,: "We're setting an extremely high bar for Model 3. We have already made significant improvements to correct any issues that Model 3 customers may have experienced that are referenced in this report, and our return policy allows any customer who is unhappy with their car to return it for a full refund."

A full refund?

As mentioned in a way earlier post about some Youtube videos, I read some Youtube comments that some M3 buyers refused to accept delivery of their new cars due to paint defects, and their money were withheld by the company.

What is the truth here? Somebody who hates Tesla so much to make up stories like that? I guess anything is possible.

 

[bobandsherry]

More proof that Tesla is confounding legacy car makers in Europe. Thousands of Teslas are now pouring into their home market.

https://electrek.co/2019/02/21/tesla-top-priority-automakers-bmw-dealer-model-3-affecting-sales/

https://insideevs.com/aerial-image-shows-tesla-ship-to-europe/

More proof that investors are no longer confident in Tesla. And stock is now below the price when this thread started....

 

[Chuckanut]

Not good news for Tesla:

Tesla shares fall after Consumer Reports says it will no longer recommend Model 3

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/21/tes...-consumer-reports-new-reliability-survey.html

Good grief! I hope Tesla is not going the way of GM. Shades of my Pontiac! (The car that made me swear of GM products for life.)

Oh, wait. The article mentions this:

While many Tesla owners may not be happy about the reliability of their car, Consumer Reports says those owners are generally satisfied with their electric vehicles.
"They like their cars, but they still tell us the truth. They tell us the problems they are having with them," said Fisher.

I'm glad to see CR is willing to shift with the data and not feel they have to go along with their past views or current thinking if the data shows a change. Good for them.

 

[bobandsherry]

What I find more interesting is this:

a Tesla spokesperson said,: "We're setting an extremely high bar for Model 3. We have already made significant improvements to correct any issues that Model 3 customers may have experienced that are referenced in this report, and our return policy allows any customer who is unhappy with their car to return it for a full refund."

A full refund?

As mentioned in a way earlier post about some Youtube videos, I read some Youtube comments that some M3 buyers refused to accept delivery of their new cars due to paint defects, and their money were withheld by the company.

What is the truth here? Somebody who hates Tesla so much to make up stories like that? I guess anything is possible.

Yes, a full refund. But look at the timeline for refund -

The standard return period is one (1) calendar day after delivery. If you have taken delivery of your vehicle without ever having taken a test or demo drive with us, we understand that you may want additional time to get to know your vehicle. In that case, you will have three (3) calendar days after delivery to return your vehicle, subject to the terms and conditions of this policy.

We will accept your vehicle for return if the vehicle:
Has an odometer mileage of less than 500 miles at the time of return;

So yes, a full refund within 1 or 3 days (depending on if you have taken Tesla on a test drive or not).

https://www.tesla.com/support/tesla-return-policy

But then there is this too:

Tesla customers describe maddening problems with returns and refunds

Today, some Tesla customers say the company left them stressed and stranded, waiting months to be paid back for returned cars or canceled reservations.

 

[NW-Bound]

Yes, a full refund. But look at the timeline for refund -

So yes, a full refund within 1 or 3 days (depending on if you have taken Tesla on a test drive or not).

https://www.tesla.com/support/tesla-return-policy

But then there is this too:

Tesla customers describe maddening problems with returns and refunds

A 1 or 3-day period is a lot more generous than which other car dealers give their buyers (which is 0), although it is too short to allow one to notice any reliability problem. For that, one has to rely on past experiences reported by others. Like Consumer Report articles?

About poor customer service, it all jibes with other stories on the Web. Tesla may have a good engineering design team, but lacks experienced personnel to be a consumer-product company.

As an engineer, I would rather do the design and leave the manufacturing and service headaches to others. But one cannot get rich without getting into the business aspects that are not fun. Musk wanted this, and it's the price to pay.

 

[bobandsherry]

A 1 or 3-day period is a lot more generous than which other car dealers give their buyers (which is 0), although it is too short to allow one to notice any reliability problem. For that, one has to rely on past experiences reported by others. Like Consumer Report articles?
.

Yep, better than the mainstream manufacturers, but then they are well established and have a known product so those buying from those who know what they are getting.

Probably one of the reasons that Tesla owners mentioned they are happy. But difference with being happy and having a reliable car.

 

[NW-Bound]

I just saw another article about the company taking forever to return deposits.

Tamara Tanney got tired of waiting for a new Tesla, so she asked for a refund of her $1,000 deposit. It’s been a year since the Toronto-based digital strategist canceled her fully refundable order...

Mark Allewell, a tech company founder in Cape Town, South Africa, said between emails, phone calls and social media posts, he tried to contact Tesla almost 50 times about the status of a Model 3 deposit refund he requested in August. The 45-year-old received a U.S. check by mail in December that he’s been unable to cash or deposit. His bank has told him he’ll be charged a transaction fee.

An invalid check that's no good? What is that all about?


For more stories, see: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla-customers-grouse-deposit-refunds-181555105.html.

 

[oneill225]

More proof that investors are no longer confident in Tesla. And stock is now below the price when this thread started....

Tesla has come a long way over the past two years. I believe the stock is poised to finally break-out this year.

in 2015, Amazon was also bouncing around $300 before taking-off. Amazon is now trading over $1,600. 2019 will be the year TSLA takes-off.

The future is bright for this company and for those investors who are willing to take a little risk.

 

[Chuckanut]

The future is bright for this company and for those investors who are willing to take a little risk.

Define 'little'. IMHO, no more than 4% in any single stock.

Personally, if I could, I would buy into SpaceX before I bought into Tesla. Mr. Musk has a secret ingredient there that he doesn't have at Tesla - Gwnne Shotwell. IMHO, he could use a clone of her at Tesla. Just my 2¢.

She is the President and Chief Operating Officer at SpaceX, an American space transportation company, where she is responsible for day-to-day operations and company growth.[1] As of 2016, she is listed as the 76th most powerful woman in the world by Forbes.[2]

FWIW, the WSJ reports Tesla is flooding China with cars just in case the current tariff negotiations don't work out so well and the 25% tariff goes into effect.

 

[bobandsherry]

Tesla has come a long way over the past two years. I believe the stock is poised to finally break-out this year.



in 2015, Amazon was also bouncing around $300 before taking-off. Amazon is now trading over $1,600. 2019 will be the year TSLA takes-off.



The future is bright for this company and for those investors who are willing to take a little risk.

Comparing Amazon to Tesla is like apples to rocks comparison. Not even close to similar business models. Amazon was pricing low to build volume and increased prices and margin. Tesla priced high, used government subsidies to help move a small volume and only a promise of some day delivering on low prices, and thinner margins.

There is more than a little amount of risk here. And with all the good news as you call it Tesla is still trading below price when this thread started two years ago.

I could be wrong, but so far my position and comments I've made here is this is not a stock that is worth investing in. So far I've been correct. So maybe time for me to be wrong, or maybe I'll continue to be right.

 

[oneill225]

Define 'little'. IMHO, no more than 4% in any single stock.

Sounds about right to me. I totally agree that it is foolish to put all of your eggs in one basket. I would also offer that I own some very conservative and middle of the road investments, as well (index funds, etc.).

That being said, I do not consider TSLA my riskiest stock pick going forward. Things could change, but they are killing the competition right now and the market for EVs is huge.

 

[NW-Bound]

Personally, if I could, I would buy into SpaceX before I bought into Tesla. Mr. Musk has a secret ingredient there that he doesn't have at Tesla - Gwnne Shotwell. IMHO, he could use a clone of her at Tesla. Just my 2¢.

Gwynne Shotwell is too busy to run the company, she does not have time to make silly tweets.

PS. Unlike Musk, Shotwell has a real engineering background. She has an MS degree in Mechanical Engineering, and has been working in the aerospace business ever since graduation. She has real credentials, unlike Holmes of the former Theranos.

Musk deserves credit for having the vision and the gumption to do something new that big stodgy corporations do not dare take the risks to do. But when it comes to executing the plan, he must learn to hire and trust true experts to do it.

 

[oneill225]

Comparing Amazon to Tesla is like apples to rocks comparison. Not even close to similar business models. Amazon was pricing low to build volume and increased prices and margin. Tesla priced high, used government subsidies to help move a small volume and only a promise of some day delivering on low prices, and thinner margins.

You are missing the similarities. Prior to 2015, Amazon was reinvesting every penny into building out a massive infrastructure to support their business. Speculation, at the time, was whether they would ever make a profit. Amazon skeptics also believed that the established retailers like Target, Walmart, Et al, could simply crush Amazon at their leisure by duplicating Amazon's efforts. Sound familiar? This caused many to avoid the stock until it was obvious that the plan was working.

There is more than a little amount of risk here. And with all the good news as you call it Tesla is still trading below price when this thread started two years ago.

If you had purchased two years ago, you would be no worse off, today. Does not seem too risky so far. Much of the pain and dramatic swings have now run their course and Tesla is on firm ground (two consecutive profitable quarters) with a 1 to 2 year lead on the competition.

I could be wrong, but so far my position and comments I've made here is this is not a stock that is worth investing in. So far I've been correct. So maybe time for me to be wrong, or maybe I'll continue to be right.

What did you think of Amazon stock back in 2014?

Of course, time will tell. If you do not want to take any risk (or at least minimize risk), more power to you; I respect such a position. For me, a high potential return is worth taking a little risk (in moderation). To each his/her own.