Thoughts on TESLA

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I believe (not sure) the high powered recharging stations work with capacitors. ...

No, capacitors simply do not store much energy. That's why all our portable gadgets use batteries, even though caps have big advantages in other ways. Caps are sometimes used in place of (or to supplement) batteries when very low power levels are involved.

Storing enough charge for one car @ say, 50 kWh would take about 1200 F at 550V, and I see caps at around $3 for 1F @ 5.5V (so lets say $1 at large wholesale prices), that is 1200*100*$1 = $120,000. If you actually want to shift the recharge time to off peak, you need enough to charge X cars during the day, you are in the millions of $ per station, just for a time shift. And there are conversion losses - you need to be able to run that capacitor bank from 550V all the way down to zero V to get all that energy out, and it is hard to make a circuit that is efficient over such a wide range.

Either way, the caps need to be charged, and losses accounted for. Not really any big win. If anything, they might use old EV batteries to level load the grid draw over a few hours.


... As for long lines: there are 20.000 fully electric vehicles in the Netherlands, another 100.000 or so plug-in hybrids. We have electric recharging stations here. I've never even seen a car refueling along the highway, let alone see a queue. Anecdote isn't data, still ...
Yes, but Netherlands is not the US.

True, charging stations won't see the kind of use gas stations do, since people will charge at home mostly. But the point was that if something like half the cars were EV, the ratio of charge stations to gas stations would have to get a bit closer, and that is still a lot of charge stations, that draw a lot of power.

-ERD50
 
There's more power outlets than gas stations already, my brother has his own gas station (power outlet for Tesla S), cost him hundred usd or so to wire up. No waiting time.

How many cars never drive more than a few hundred miles a day? I'd wager most do. My mother never goes beyond 200 miles or so, if that.

Trucks will still exist, long range gas cars as well for a good while. The question is what is the end state, and how fast will it get there? If Tesla doesn't implode it will have pushed electric cars along into the realm of scaled production, and accelerated its timeline. Gives it a decent shot if the technology is ultimately viable (and I see no reason why it isn't).

In any case, more alternatives and flexibility to power transportation besides oil, what's not to like.


Well, lets compare gas pumps to electric stations since those are one for one... below is # of stations, but I will reduce it to 110K... not sure of the number of pumps per station, but most of the ones I see around here have a minimum of 6 and up to 24... some even more if they are Buckey's (at least I think they have more, never counted).... so let's say 8 per station means 880,000 pumps...


Now, does every EV owner have their own charging station? Not sure, but let's say they do... (they can charge on a regular outlet)... that means 540,000 in 2016... add 150,000 to get to now and you have less than 700,000.... not sure how many are out by themselves that people can pay and plug into...


So, you might be right, but not by much...


It still does not address the longer travel that happens.... if you have ever driven between any of the major cities in the US, you will see there are thousands of cars traveling the highways between them every day... and I am talking one city to another, not all combined...



Now, there are around 250 MILLION vehicles in the US... getting even half of them electric means you will have to get that charging time down... which means a huge multiple of charging stations from what exists today...









The USA had 114,474 filling stations (gas stations) in 2012, according to the U.S. Census Bureau, down from 118,756 in 2007 and 121,446 in 2002.[4][5][6]





In November of 2016, there were 540,000 electric cars on the road in the USA. This sounds like a lot, but it’s only .22% of all cars on the road in the USA. If we look at yearly production numbers, it still paints a miniscule picture. In 2016, there were around 17.5 million cars produced of which only 134,000 were electric (about .77%). So who is selling all these electric cars?

https://www.nanalyze.com/2017/03/electric-cars-usa/
 
...Now, does every EV owner have their own charging station? Not sure, but let's say they do... (they can charge on a regular outlet)...

I just want to add that most (all?) EVs can be trickle-charged from a wall outlet, and it just takes a long time.

One hour of charging gets you about 4 miles of driving. For that 2nd car that we could use to make a grocery run once or twice a week, it will work OK.
 
One hour of charging gets you about 4 miles of driving. For that 2nd car that we could use to make a grocery run once or twice a week, it will work OK.

Not sure what the benefit is of owning an electric car vs gas engine car for such infrequent and short trips. Not like you are saving much, if anything, on gas. Nor making a dent in your carbon footprint. Seems a older model basic high mileage car would probably be more economical on the wallet.
 
A gas engine needs more maintenance with the oil change, coolant, fuel getting stale, etc... It has more things to go wrong.

I have seen some LEAFs with 20K miles for just a bit more than $8K. It's very tempting, but still the battery life is a real concern.
 
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Not sure what the benefit is of owning an electric car vs gas engine car for such infrequent and short trips. Not like you are saving much, if anything, on gas. Nor making a dent in your carbon footprint. Seems a older model basic high mileage car would probably be more economical on the wallet.


The one benefit for me would be that I could run the AC and have the car cool for my trip...


Like today... drove to the gym and by the time I was getting there the car was cool... came out and went to my mom's condo to get her mail, was cooling down as I went inside (let it running)... then went to the grocery store... after shopping the car was hot again and was just starting to cool down a bit by the time I got home... we are talking 2 to 3 mile trips and when it is in the high 90s a car does not cool down that quick... but leaving the AC on when in a store is something I would do if I could...
 
A gas engine needs more maintenance with the oil change, coolant, fuel getting stale, etc... It has more things to go wrong.

I have seen some LEAFs with 20K miles for just a bit more than $8K. It's very tempting, but still the battery life is a real concern.

Plus, the older Leaf's don't have thermal management on their batteries so they lose capacity quickly (from what I have read). And the A/C, which you will need, will suck that small capacity battery down quickly.

AL T bought a used Leaf last year, but he is in a cooler climate than you. Maybe ask him how he likes it?
 
I am not sure about the original LEAF, but the current one has air cooling. Some say it's not as good as liquid cooling in cars like the Volt, or the Tesla.

About AC using juice, yes, that's a concern. You don't want to have to keep the car cool the whole day, but short periods should be OK. My 1kWh lithium battery could run a small window AC for 90 minutes.
 
Just invested in Tesla shares today when it dipped to $310. But I own an Audi and a Bimmer
 
The one benefit for me would be that I could run the AC and have the car cool for my trip...


Like today... drove to the gym and by the time I was getting there the car was cool... came out and went to my mom's condo to get her mail, was cooling down as I went inside (let it running)... then went to the grocery store... after shopping the car was hot again and was just starting to cool down a bit by the time I got home... we are talking 2 to 3 mile trips and when it is in the high 90s a car does not cool down that quick... but leaving the AC on when in a store is something I would do if I could...
High 90's all summer for me in Florida. My gas engine car is black on black with leather, has no problem cooling down in only a minute or two. Or I can get it cooled down before I get into it by using remote start.
 
High 90's all summer for me in Florida. My gas engine car is black on black with leather, has no problem cooling down in only a minute or two. Or I can get it cooled down before I get into it by using remote start.


What kind of car do you have? Our Pilot with the window tint that blocks the heat will cool down quickly... but the Elantra with no tint will not... the steering wheel is hot to the touch, the seat you should put a towel down if the sun was directly on it...



These drives are about 5 to 10 minutes... so mine is cooling down a bit, but not cold...
 
What kind of car do you have? Our Pilot with the window tint that blocks the heat will cool down quickly... but the Elantra with no tint will not... the steering wheel is hot to the touch, the seat you should put a towel down if the sun was directly on it...

These drives are about 5 to 10 minutes... so mine is cooling down a bit, but not cold...
2017 Lincoln MKC. Windows are tinted as well (driver and passenger too). We get some really heavy sun and, even with shorts on, seats never have been too hot and steering wheel not too hot to the touch. Steering wheel is leather wrapped. And seats have cooling too. AC set to auto, so it's really cranking initially to cool down. But by the time we get out of the parking lot the car has cooled down.

Believe me, I had concerns with black/black, but two years now with cruising in it during the summer.
 
What kind of car do you have? Our Pilot with the window tint that blocks the heat will cool down quickly... but the Elantra with no tint will not... the steering wheel is hot to the touch, the seat you should put a towel down if the sun was directly on it...



These drives are about 5 to 10 minutes... so mine is cooling down a bit, but not cold...

Look into a hybrid - it looks like some of those can run the A/C for a while on the traction battery, they use a direct electric motor to run the compressor, not a belt off the ICE. But they might also need to be in a mode where the engine will start to charge the battery if it drops too low. This is likely model specific, so you'd need to do some homework.

-ERD50
 
My 2014 Prius gets 55 mpg ... love to have a Tesla (like the simplicity in engineering) but after doing the math it looks like we'll keep the Prius.

As for Tesla stock? This is a total crap shoot ... not going there.
Musk has a twitchy Trump finger on his twitter acct.
 
It still does not address the longer travel that happens.... if you have ever driven between any of the major cities in the US, you will see there are thousands of cars traveling the highways between them every day... and I am talking one city to another, not all combined...

Now, there are around 250 MILLION vehicles in the US... getting even half of them electric means you will have to get that charging time down... which means a huge multiple of charging stations from what exists today...

For >99% of the days a car drives, they drive less than 200 miles in total. 95% actually drives less than 60 miles.

Can EVs handle the distances we drive? • A Study

If you have a decent outlet at home, those >99% of days the car does not need to recharge outside your home. Let's make it 99% indeed and make every day a driving day, a strong overestimation. USA wide that means 2.5 million vehicles need a recharge every day outside their home at the outmost. 110k stations can handle that. I'd wager it's actually an order of magnitude less.

Or on a microlevel: today _every_ car needs to gas up at a gas station. Most EV owners never have to, unless they are traveling sales men or insane commuters.
 
One hour of charging gets you about 4 miles of driving. For that 2nd car that we could use to make a grocery run once or twice a week, it will work OK.


Is this because of low amp x voltage in US homes? Homes standard can draw 3.7kW from the grid here, so that's roughly three times more.
 
Is this because of low amp x voltage in US homes? Homes standard can draw 3.7kW from the grid here, so that's roughly three times more.

No. The standard wall outlets in the US are wired for 15A x 115V = 1.7kW. Unless the home owner gets a larger and special outlet installed, he is limited by that.

At the entry to my home, the master breaker is 200A x 115V x 2 = 46kW. That is the total that I can draw. Americans are energy hogs. :)

My AC/heatpump has the breaker size of 50A x 230V = 11.5kW.

The kitchen range also has a breaker for 50A x 230V.

The water heater breaker is 30A x 230V, etc...

PS. In the US, portable appliances that are plugged into the wall are limited to 15A @ 115V for each circuit. A home may have 5 to 10 circuits like that, depending on size of the home. A circuit feeds several outlets along its run. For example, all the outlets in my bedroom are on one 15A circuit.

Fixed appliances like AC, kitchen ovens, etc... are wired for 230V, and up to 50A each. Many EV owners get an outlet installed for 50A x 230V in the garage to get faster charging.
 
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Was listening to CNBC this morning on XM radio and a law firm had an advertisement about the "funding secured" tweet, and getting compensation for the damage done to a TSLA trader in that timeframe.

That was fast.
 
If I were a Tesla shareholder, I would be mad like hell at these random tweets. :)
 
Was listening to CNBC this morning on XM radio and a law firm had an advertisement about the "funding secured" tweet, and getting compensation for the damage done to a TSLA trader in that timeframe.

That was fast.


Heck, I thought one would have been filed in the next day or two after the tweet... from the shorts...


Now I can see that the longs who bought because of that tweet have a loss also...
 
If Tesla stock doesn't get to $359.87/sh by 12/1, high chances then that the stock plummets significantly as Tesla would then have to use cash to redeem the convertible debt that comes due in March. Since Tesla had $2.2 billion in cash at the end of June, their burn rate for the next 3 quarters and then having to come up with the $920 million for the convertible stock redemption would really put Tesla in a bind.
 
I saw press releases soliciting class action clients immediately after the “funding secured” tweet. I was traveling at the time and not watching the news as much. I tuned in Bloomberg on XM in the middle of a heated debate on TSLA and was able to guess the subject of the tweet. It’s hard to imagine that someone isn’t benefiting from advance knowledge of these tweets. Seems irresponsible and inadequate to disclose material information this way. Of course, it ‘s not just Musk.
 
Just invested in Tesla shares today when it dipped to $310. But I own an Audi and a Bimmer

But the other luxury manufacturer announced investing 12 Billion dollar investment in electric cars with production starting 1/2 half of next year (5 years from now in TeslaTime) Stock is giving you chance to purchase more for cheaper!
 
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