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03-31-2020, 09:52 AM
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#1
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Dryer sheet aficionado
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 34
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Why the Melt Up...?
How the heck can the market possibly be going up as fast as it is, when it seems that exactly the opposite should be happening....?
I just don't get it.
There's GOT to be something that I just don't understand when it comes to the markets.
- Patrick
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03-31-2020, 09:58 AM
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#2
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 12,566
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If we could answer that, we'd all be too rich to hang out on the ER forum complaining about our 401Ks and the lack of TP at Walmart.
Instead, we'd be hanging out on our private, fully-stocked islands, to which we flew several weeks ago on our private Gulfstream jets.
__________________
If you understood everything I say, you'd be me ~ Miles Davis
'There is only one success – to be able to spend your life in your own way.’ Christopher Morley.
Even a blind clock finds an acorn twice a day.
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03-31-2020, 10:11 AM
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#3
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Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 518
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I think the significant melt down was due to a severe liquidity crunch (e.g. corporations accessing credit lines) to save up for the shut down, as a result of the virus. Once that was addressed by the fed actions, the market likely reflects where we should be reflecting where we are with the disease. Again, the market reflects not the now but estimated to be to be 6-12 months from now.
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03-31-2020, 10:12 AM
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#4
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,390
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I am wondering the same thing. I don't have a good answer for it. If we accept the premise that the market will start recovering before the virus peaks, since it is forward looking, then that might help explain it. Bottom line, I don't know.
__________________
Understanding both the power of compound interest and the difficulty of getting it is the heart and soul of understanding a lot of things. Charlie Munger
The first rule of compounding: Never interupt it unnecessarily. Charlie Munger
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03-31-2020, 10:29 AM
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#5
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2013
Location: ATL --> Flyover Country
Posts: 6,649
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There are simply too many variables at play on a NORMAL day to figure out moves in the market. HFTs, algorithms, fear/greed, just to name a few. Throw in a little "never seen this before!" and you can just forget it. Or, tune into CNBC/Fox Business/Bloomberg/Cheddar and they will have "experts" rambling for hours telling us EXACTLY why it's doing what it's doing.
__________________
FIRE'd in 2014 @ 40 Years Old
Professional Retiree
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03-31-2020, 10:38 AM
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#6
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: City
Posts: 10,308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickW
... There's GOT to be something that I just don't understand when it comes to the markets. ...
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Well, thing one is that price action is close enough to random that assuming random is a good going-in position.
Thing two is that markets are not totally rational. Richard Thaler's " Misbehaving" is an easy read and well worth the effort for any investor IMO. For less effort, here is a 42 minute video where two Nobel winners discuss the question: "Are Markets Efficient?," which is very close to the question you implicitly have: "Are Markets Rational?" To the extent that markets are not rational, you can be excused for not understanding.
https://review.chicagobooth.edu/econ...kets-efficient
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03-31-2020, 10:43 AM
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#7
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 3,046
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I think this posting marked the end of the melt up.
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03-31-2020, 10:48 AM
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#8
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,992
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim584672
I think this posting marked the end of the melt up.
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Been seeing that a lot here lately. Someone starts a thread to make a point, and the initial post becomes OBE. Kind of like yesterday's posts about how the number of deaths had "decreased" on Sunday, which to them meant we had flattened the curve. Hours later, several states reported their death counts, and yesterday ended up having the highest one-day reported death total for COVID-19
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03-31-2020, 10:55 AM
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#9
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 11,078
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Did you ever have a blazing fire(2019 market) that settled down to a thick hot bed of coals(last 3 weeks)and throw some kindling on it(Fed actions)? It will flare up for a while while the new fuel is quickly consumed.
Markets are more complicated than a fire. [emoji849]
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03-31-2020, 11:06 AM
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#10
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: SoCal, Lausanne
Posts: 4,408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickW
How the heck can the market possibly be going up as fast as it is, when it seems that exactly the opposite should be happening....?
I just don't get it.
There's GOT to be something that I just don't understand when it comes to the markets.
- Patrick
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Markets discount the future. The near term bad news has been discounted. Markets never fall in a straight line. There is always incentive for short sellers to cover and take profits. The current stimulus will carry the economy through the end of May. What the market needs to determine is what the economy will look like on the other side. This is going to be a long recovery until a vaccine or viable treatment is available. Many businesses that were in serious trouble before this event will shutter permanently. Consider that clothing retailers are holding seasonal inventory that they can't sell when they re-open. Also consider that a small number of stocks carry the weight of the broader market and that situation is getting worse.
Those that are in good financial shape can ride this out without any damage but the vast majority are financial wrecking balls living pay check to pay check. They will be the first ones to blow through their stimulus checks. Temperature screening before entering a business or workplace will become the norm moving forward. Those that continue to defy common sense and congregate in large numbers or are not abiding by quarantine orders are just going to prolong the problem.
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03-31-2020, 12:41 PM
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#11
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,174
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I think there will be a lot of pent up demand for all types of goods and services after the shelter in place orders are lifted and when we're well past the peak of the number of infections. Social distancing will continue, restaurant seating will be less dense, but people will be back to work and life will go on. More online shopping will continue and businesses will adapt. I think the market reflects 'this too will pass', just like every other crisis.
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03-31-2020, 12:46 PM
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#12
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 1,360
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I think most of the bad news regarding the virus has been consumed by people who really pay attention to this stuff. We're going to see shocking headlines for the next 12 weeks, but they're pretty easy to predict at this point, so should really be priced in.
The daily news out of Europe is increasingly better if you get past the horrid news stories about fatality rates, hospital equipment, etc. and actually look at the data.
The Italian stock market index has been powering higher for the last two weeks.
My guess -- note the word guess -- is that while we'll see some headline driven volatility it will be pretty minor relative to the hurricane of the last 3 weeks.
The market is mainly going to be digesting actual new information when it comes out, rather than reacting to the rehashing of the now well known tragedies being played out on CNN, etc.
I think the four big movers are...
1) Does Europe actually turn the corner like it appears to be? (Italy in particular is putting up numbers that make me hold my breath and hope.)
2) Provided #1 comes true, what happens when Europe tries to restart the economy?
3) Does the US seem to be getting on the Europe curve, or has the US approach to the response charted a curve that is markedly different (and therefore both #1 and #2 are less predictive).
4) Some crazy black swan a la AIG or GE being unable to roll over its commercial paper in 2008. If a very big company face plants publicly, that could really scare the squirrels again. It seems like the governments have tourniquets on all the badly wounded big companies but something ugly could still surface.
BTW...none of the above makes me think I'm smart enough to trade this market. Just my observations.
__________________
Luck is when Preparation meets Opportunity.
FIRE'd 1/1/24
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03-31-2020, 02:35 PM
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#13
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freedomatlast
... we're well past the peak of the number of infections...
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?!?!?
No, just no.
I am not a statistician, epidemiologist, or health policy expert, but will say with absolute certainly: we are not well past the peak. We are not even at the peak. ?!? And if we do not do an absolute lock-down like China, and we are not, then the American curve will be drawwwwn out.
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03-31-2020, 02:43 PM
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#14
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rio Grande Valley
Posts: 37,931
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Short squeezes can cause dramatic melt ups, but they are generally short-lived.
__________________
Retired since summer 1999.
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03-31-2020, 02:44 PM
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#15
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rio Grande Valley
Posts: 37,931
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P.S.
?!?!?
No, just no.
I am not a statistician, epidemiologist, or health policy expert, but will say with absolute certainly: we are not well past the peak. We are not even at the peak. ?!? And if we do not do an absolute lock-down like China, and we are not, then the American curve will be drawwwwn out.
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I think they meant WHEN we are well past the peak - it’s clear from their statement that they are talking about after several things happen.
__________________
Retired since summer 1999.
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03-31-2020, 02:52 PM
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#16
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 445
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thanks, I misread.
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03-31-2020, 05:53 PM
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#17
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audreyh1
Up I think they meant WHEN we are well past the peak - it’s clear from their statement that they are talking about after several things happen.
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Correct. I amended my previous post for the sake of clarity. In my area, the peak is projected to be around 4/16 and it will be a while after that before we can begin to think about a return to some form of normalcy.
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03-31-2020, 06:02 PM
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#18
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 8,304
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We’d all like to believe market action is rational. The market went up/down/ sideways because of x, y, or Z. Reality is that it is basically random with an upward tilt. I agree fully with Old Shooter on this. This recent market volatility is far more random than normal. Investors are driving in the fog with no idea when it will lift or get worse. They’re guessing on which stocks will be in favor when the fog lifts. It will lift but I’m proceeding at reduced speed until visibility improves
__________________
...with no reasonable expectation for ER, I'm just here auditing the AP class.Retired 8/1/15.
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03-31-2020, 07:40 PM
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#19
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 317
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Simple answer: PPT & Fed
In addition to the known manipulations, there are probably a lot of things happening behind the curtain that is not disclosed. This would explain a lot.
__________________
To endure the unbridled micromanagement of one's time on this earth, whether paid or unpaid, is to offer up one's soul to a paradigm of increasing tyranny, exploitation and indignity.
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03-31-2020, 07:47 PM
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#20
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickW
How the heck can the market possibly be going up as fast as it is, when it seems that exactly the opposite should be happening....?
I just don't get it.
There's GOT to be something that I just don't understand when it comes to the markets.
- Patrick
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Hedge funds re-buying with extremely cheap credit. Same buyers as were sellers in the rapid drop.
Wall street was selling last 3 weeks , main street, not so much. I would suspect most on this forum did not sell much.
My Portfolio is less than 10 % equity, and I didn't seriously consider selling, even at the low.
__________________
" A person is smart, but People are dumb, dangerous, panicky animals, and you know it " Agent "K", Men in Black
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