I've sold all my Boeing shares

Boeing is heavily entrenched in defense contracts of US and international governments. Domestic airline industry is just a minor piece of their pie. They will be around a long time, despite the QC issues. Can you spell military 'drones'?
 
I bought BA stock when it went down after the "plug" fiasco. Figured it would recover in a year or two. Don't consider it a long term hold though.
 
CaptTom said:
But I keep wondering, what if? What if SpaceX has a spectacular failure. Maybe a loss of life. Maybe they prove totally unable to supply the multiple Starliners required to do in-orbit refueling. Or the whole concept (starliner, or the refueling) turns out to be unworkable with the engineering they've chosen. What if some major flaw shuts the whole program down?.
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Flip side ... what if that agile start-up says "we wil move more broadly into defense" and throws its hat in the ring to compete on things like military planes?

The defense industry (and defense budget) badly needs more competition. That would be very interesting to watch.
 
Closet_Gamer said:
Flip side ... what if that agile start-up says "we wil move more broadly into defense" and throws its hat in the ring to compete on things like military planes?

The defense industry (and defense budget) badly needs more competition. That would be very interesting to watch.
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And with only a few players they can charge a LOT more than if there was real competition...


I remember many years ago when they asked for bids on a nuclear sub... IIRC there were two firms that could do the work... one of them figured they would get the bid as it was 'their turn'... but lost the bid... the other firm could build cheaper but did not bid on the cost to make it but they spent time figuring out what they thought the other firm would bid and then undercut it by some percent... a big hulabalu that went to court...
 
tominboise said:
What do you base this information on? Just wondering, as I worked there for many years and didn't see this going on. But maybe I missed something.

Not to say that the IAM and SPEEA are perfect - they certainly aren't.

However, Management decisions regarding corporate mergers, outsourcing, selling facilities to non union companies, internal staffing, QA processes, etc, etc, etc, are the real cause of these sorts of issues.
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Which union at Boeing did you belong to?
 
maestro said:
Boeing is heavily entrenched in defense contracts of US and international governments. Domestic airline industry is just a minor piece of their pie. They will be around a long time, despite the QC issues. Can you spell military 'drones'?
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Sorry maestro, Boeing is losing their shirt on military contracts right now, including their MQ-25. Take a look......

https://www.defensenews.com/industr...eports-139m-loss-across-three-major-programs/

https://breakingdefense.com/2023/07...losses-for-q2-though-kc-46-deliveries-resume/
 
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Hawkeye,

Yeah - but, remember those sort of news outlets are looking for anything to sell subscriptions - their pieces are not always written by the swooftist folks.

After reading them for a couple of decades, and then comparing what was actually going on, it reminds me still of reading GAO reports and comparing what was really going on. Generally accurate as macro over long periods of time, but not always so accurate for specific activities.
 
Over the past number of years I believe that Boeing senior management has failed it's employees, it's shareholders, it's Board of Directors, it's supplier partners, and its customers big time. Such a shame.

Quality starts at the very top. Clearly this has not been the modus operandi of Boeing leadership for quite some time.

The real question is what needs to happen to change this corporate culture from the very top down to the assembly floor?? Words are meaningless at this point.

Their reputation is in shatters. Think what that does to employee morale and customer confidence!
 
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tenant13 said:
I'm sure in 2-3 years we will all forget (again) how terrible QC is at that company but I just don't want to support them by holding their stock.

Logically, I understand that you can't make these planes perfect: they would cost too much and require ticket prices to go way up. So 100-300 dead passengers every now and then is probably an acceptable price for running a business. Cars, guns, trains, boats etc. - all these industries deal with accidents and we happily own their stock. Besides, worldwide demand for new planes is too big for one company - Airbus - to handle it. I'm not even going into military contracts which have nothing to do with market.

So... all that is logic but I don't care about being logical - I don't trust them, I don't like them and I hope they will fail. They certainly deserve to.
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How long did you own the shares, and did you make any gains on the stock?

VW
 
brett said:
Over the past number of years I believe that Boeing senior management has failed it's employees, it's shareholders, it's Board of Directors, it's supplier partners, and its customers big time. Such a shame.

Quality starts at the very top. Clearly this has not been the modus operandi of Boeing leadership for quite some time.

The real question is what needs to happen to change this corporate culture from the very top down to the assembly floor?? Words are meaningless at this point.

Their reputation is in shatters. Think what that does to employee morale and customer confidence!
Click to expand...

In one sense, I totally agree with your statement.
But...
There have been complaints for decades that the various European governments find ways, large and small, to subsidize Airbus. IIRC, the unions at Boeing have gotten some nice contracts in recent years. So perhaps Boeing feels backed into a corner, they have to scrimp and save and cut corners to be competitive with Airbus on price and delivery times, or they'll lose their customers.

Only Boeing knows for sure, and I'm not totally sure they know all of it. Might be similar to GM vs Japanese automakers in the past. Good management is an important part of success, but some things are beyond management control.
 
tominboise said:
It's time for a management philosophy change at the Boeing company. It morphed from an engineering based company with the mission statement of "Be the #1 aerospace company in the world" to an MBA based company with the mission statement of "Be #1 in shareholder value". I worked there when it happened in the late 1990's. It's taken a while to weed out all the old values but they have finally accomplished their goal. Too bad they managed to kill the company in doing so.

Note - I understand that Boeing wasn't perfect before the Phil Condit era, but since then, it's been a long slide of questionable business decisions. Promoting Alan Mullaly to the CEO was the last hope they had of reversing the slide. Too bad they passed on him.
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I have longtime friends (husband and wife) who worked at Boeing (now retired) and foretold this day about 20 years ago. I always hoped they were exaggerating and just whining about how bad it was and how far off track Boeing was getting. Nope, not whining nor exaggerating at all.
 
I’ve just read a very good article on the subject: https://www.businessinsider.com/boe...greedy-broken-stock-market-wall-street-2024-2

It’s that kind of thinking that led me to selling BA shares. Interestingly I’m also a big Apple stock holder and I couldn’t help thinking what a different way of governing these two corporations represent. Apple just released Vision Pro which is just another innovative product in their portfolio. They are consistently on the vanguard of technology - we already forgot that it’s thanks to Apple, digital music is the norm (iTunes store) as well as digital payments (Apple Wallet). They are gently mocked for their ideas (Apple Watch, wireless headphones) only to become leaders in the industry. Even things like their TV shows - a side hustle - are top notch quality (have you seen Slow Horses and Foundation?!). I want to hold their stock because they are the example of what American ingenuity and success should be.
 
tenant13 said:
...Apple just released Vision Pro which is just another innovative product in their portfolio. They are consistently on the vanguard of technology - we already forgot that it’s thanks to Apple, digital music is the norm (iTunes store) as well as digital payments (Apple Wallet)...
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While I agree these are very differently run companies, I think you're giving Apple a bit too much credit for innovation here. There have been VR and AR products for years. Likewise digital music and payments. Apple made them popular, but didn't invent them. Whether because of true quality or just very clever advertising. But you certainly can't go wrong buying stock in a company whose products people will line up to pay a premium for. Fashion industries always have high profit margins.
 
VanWinkle said:
How long did you own the shares, and did you make any gains on the stock?

VW
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A few years. I bought it shortly after Max 8 disasters thinking that after such a hard lesson, Boeing will completely change and come back stronger and better.
I haven't lost money on it but whatever gains there were, they are not memorable.
 
CaptTom said:
While I agree these are very differently run companies, I think you're giving Apple a bit too much credit for innovation here. There have been VR and AR products for years. Likewise digital music and payments. Apple made them popular, but didn't invent them. Whether because of true quality or just very clever advertising. But you certainly can't go wrong buying stock in a company whose products people will line up to pay a premium for. Fashion industries always have high profit margins.
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This is a common come back to Apple fanboys (which I admittedly am). But my point stands: they are investing in R&D, they diversify, they pay great attention to detail and quality, they respect the customer, they managed to elevate the retail experience to a cult-like level and their products are pretty and long lived. While paying dividends and conducting stock buybacks. What's not to like?

Not everything that Apple touches turns to Gold. Their Maps app is a never-ending unusable mess (and I try VERY hard to like it) and Siri is a joke. So far from perfect.
 
tenant13 said:
...they managed to elevate the retail experience to a cult-like level...
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I try to avoid joining cults. Apparently I'm in the minority on this.

I can't argue that their stock is worth buying, or that they produce quality hardware.

I will quibble with the idea that they respect their users. It may be true that their lowest-common-denominator approach works for most users who don't want, or know how, to do anything more complex than drag and tap. And that creating a fashion brand which people love to be seen carrying is good marketing. But respect? I'd say it's more like a clever way to take advantage of human weaknesses. Still, I admire a good con game.
 
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