Falsely accused of extra guests

[RetireeRobert]

You also did not say whether you paid with CC or nor. Assuming you did, dispute the charges with the CC company and do not pay, or ask CC company for chargeback if already paid the CC monthly bill.

And write that scathing review---and do mention the cameras.

 

[jollystomper]

A big +1 for staying in hotels. If you can't get a quick and easy chargeback from your bank, I'd write this off as a lesson and move on. .

I agree. Part of me sees the point of the owner. We are only seeing one side of this story. There have been enough stories of "sharing economy" rentals being used for large parties and trashed, (not to mention the ensuring difficulties of getting compensated and restoring the place) that is seems perfectly reasonable for a renter to be on the paranoid side.

I also prefer hotels. There are "suite" hotels that are like apartments for long stays. When we have chosen "private" rentals, we have at least gone through local realty companies where one can talk in person to customer service. True it may cost more, but it falls into the "blow that dough" category for us.

 

[phil1ben]

I own a number of VRBO rentals (and have rented as occupant a number of units also) and have the following thoughts:

1. If you were going to have additional guests enter the rental that should have been disclosed to the owner. Frankly, it happens all of the time and as long as the additional guests are not sleeping over I am usually fine with it. Often pricing is based on the number of guests and allowing additional people to use the unit but not sleepover is a gray area. What if you invited 6 additional people over? It is hard to draw the line. Nevertheless, I believe you should have informed the owner.

2. Cameras. Plain and simple if the owner has cameras outside this should have been prominently displayed in the listing. Yes its creepy. If you found cameras inside, this certainly is illegal if not disclosed.

3. Self-Help Remedy. Normally there is no legal process to immediately throw people from an AirBnB unit if they have a written lease/occupancy agreement and are not clearly trespassers. A court process is normally required unless the police see evidence that you are committing a crime there. Understand under most state laws the occupant of an AirBnB type unit does not have the rights of a traditional tenant and is often characterized as a "seasonal tenant" having less rights. Perhaps the police might show up based upon an owner call but once you present the AirBnB booking and they see all is in order they would likely just leave. In my mind this was a bluff by the owner and his actions deserve a poor review.

4. Generally, the owner of a VRBO must understand that in exchange for $ he is allowing his property to be used by people he has never met. Some degree of flexibility is required. This owner displayed none.

 

[Aerides]

( OP I took the liberty of adding some paragraph breaks to the story for readability. )

 

[pb4uski]

( OP I took the liberty of adding some paragraph breaks to the story for readability. )

Thank you.

 

[old medic]

After reading this... I'm dragging our camper....

 

[iloveyoga]

My sister has several Airbnb rentals, it's how she makes her living. So she is called the host. Some are called super hosts, she is one of those. I agree that the extra people in the rental is a gray area, but she would not cause trouble over that. Each house has rules and hers state absolutely no parties or gatherings. That is very important for her neighbors.

I've stayed in quite a few vrbo and airbnb rentals with no issues, but you are in someone's home and I have found hotel beds to be consistently more comfortable.

 

[HarveyS]

Dispute with cc company since you were overcharged. I do feel you are over-reacting unless there were cameras inside that were not disclosed.

I've stayed in many airBNB's/VRBO units and have had no issues.

OP, I see an inconsistency in your story. You covered what you thought were internal cameras with paper towel. Host texted not to cover cameras. You replied you did not cover any external cameras. Then you say you never confirmed internal cameras. Were there, or were there not internal cameras? Why would host say don't cover cameras if there were no internal cameras? Did you cover, or just block, the external camera while coming and going?

BTW, any Nest/Ring doorbell (or the like) that I have seen also has a hot mike function that picks up noises or voices. Likely any comments you made near the front door were heard and recorded. Oh, and my old nest doorbell took a whole body view of who was at the door, including their midsection. If this creeps you out, stay away from homes with these devices.

 

[george76]

My apologies if this was already mentioned; but I'm curious how you found this place. If it was an airbnb or vrbo, were there any prior reviews? Was the owner a superhost (airbnb)? I have used airbnb in the past and your experience is a concern for me.

 

[Amethyst]

Phil1ben summed up my thoughts perfectly.

 

[ikubak]

Dispute with cc company since you were overcharged. I do feel you are over-reacting unless there were cameras inside that were not disclosed.

I've stayed in many airBNB's/VRBO units and have had no issues.

OP, I see an inconsistency in your story. You covered what you thought were internal cameras with paper towel. Host texted not to cover cameras. You replied you did not cover any external cameras. Then you say you never confirmed internal cameras. Were there, or were there not internal cameras? Why would host say don't cover cameras if there were no internal cameras? Did you cover, or just block, the external camera while coming and going?

BTW, any Nest/Ring doorbell (or the like) that I have seen also has a hot mike function that picks up noises or voices. Likely any comments you made near the front door were heard and recorded. Oh, and my old nest doorbell took a whole body view of who was at the door, including their midsection. If this creeps you out, stay away from homes with these devices.

Thanks for the comment. Some good skepticism in my story makes for a more thorough discussion.

I stated that I did not confirm inside cameras because I found what I thought could be cameras. I didn't dissect the devices to confirm.

After reading about hidden internal cameras at rentals I followed the suggestions and turned off all the lights and shined my flashlight from my phone around the room. The article said if you find something that is shiny and looks like glass, it could be a lense. I saw something in one of the smoke alarms and a device on the wall that looked like a motion detector that I thought might have a camera as well. I didn't take the devices apart to examine the contents so I can't say with 100% certainty that there was a camera there. I felt more comfortable inside the unit with those devices covered.

While DW and I were away from the rental, I got a text from the host asking why I was covering his cameras. I found this to be an odd question since it was written in the present tense also, he referenced cameras (plural, more than one) and at the time we weren't at the rental but we did have two things covered inside the rental. Did I overreact or did the host slip up and indicate that he had undisclosed internal cameras? Undisclosed internal cameras is a huge no no according to the article I read.

Another red flag in his question about covering his cameras was with the camera on the landing which was about waist high. It's the only external camera that we found creepy. When entering and exiting the unit, I would stand in front of the device while DW walked by and then I would follow her. I didn't think of this as "covering" the device. And this was the only external camera that I did this with. I saw other cameras externally and didn't have a problem with them since they were at a distance. We referred to this particular camera as the creepy cam or the crotch cam since it seemed to be pointed in that direction.

I hope I answered your questions. Did I overreact? Maybe but I would rather be cautious. My creep-o-meter was on high alert for sure.

 

[pb4uski]

Reading you post, basically your 2 in-laws joined you and your wife when you first entered the unit and they brought in their bags since they planned to freshen up for a walk and dinner. Your in-laws and their bags we in the unit temporarily for less than 3 hours from when you arrived to when you left for dinner.

I don't see that as out-of-bounds at all. The host is in the wrong. Your deal with the host was that only 2 of you were staying there, but having 2 guests for a few hours shouldn't be a problem.

Actually, the cameras wouldn't bother me at all. If the host wants to spy on us then s/he is the wierdo, not us. I have security cameras at my homes. Mine are motion activated and I would need to disarm them if someone was using my place and I can see what is going on but I wouldn't other than perhaps to see if they have left the place so I could go in and clean it up.

 

[target2019]

1. Demand a refund to the extent you deem fair.
2. Complain, and document just basic facts. Your on-line review in several places will get attention.

What do past tenants say of this property?

 

[ikubak]

My sister has several Airbnb rentals, it's how she makes her living. So she is called the host. Some are called super hosts, she is one of those. I agree that the extra people in the rental is a gray area, but she would not cause trouble over that. Each house has rules and hers state absolutely no parties or gatherings. That is very important for her neighbors.

I've stayed in quite a few vrbo and airbnb rentals with no issues, but you are in someone's home and I have found hotel beds to be consistently more comfortable.

Shortly after arriving the host texted asking how many were seeking accomodations that night. I answered that there would be two of us. It never occurred to me that letting my brother in-law and sister in-law use the bathroom and change clothes in the rental would cause the host to cancel my reservation, lie about contacting the police, tell me in a text that I had broken the law and he was pressing charges. I might add that the cancellation and threats happened 18 hours after I took my in-laws to their next stop.

I think the host was upset that I stood on the landing in front of his camera as my wife walked by. He might not like how I let my wife pass his camera but at no time did I lie to him or break any house rules or local laws.

 

[Ready]

I don’t understand the overreaction to having 2 extra guests. Is there any additional cost to the host if two more people stay there? Wouldn’t a bad review be more damaging to future revenues than allowing a renter to have two extra people stay in the place, regardless of whether it was just for a few hours or longer.

This host just sounds like a real weirdo.

 

[ikubak]

I don’t understand the overreaction to having 2 extra guests. Is there any additional cost to the host if two more people stay there? Wouldn’t a bad review be more damaging to future revenues than allowing a renter to have two extra people stay in the place, regardless of whether it was just for a few hours or longer.

This host just sounds like a real weirdo.

I don't understand it either. I asked customer service to share with me the documentation the host provided as proof that I had more than two guests and that I had broken local laws. They would do it. EDIT - they wouldn't do it.


I find it hard to explain my position without knowing what the hot said about me.

 

[dirtbiker]

Did I miss it, but what rental company are you dealing with? VRBO? AirBNB? Another one?


If it were me, I would dispute the entire charge with my CC and write a scathing review, and have my family and friends also write poor reviews to really hammer him. If it happened as described, it's beyond creepy. This person should not be renting apartments. I'd be concerned about cameras you don't know about, and what he's doing with that footage.

 

[MichaelB]

I don't understand it either. I asked customer service to share with me the documentation the host provided as proof that I had more than two guests and that I had broken local laws. They would do it. EDIT - they wouldn't do it.


I find it hard to explain my position without knowing what the hot said about me.

If you believe the host may have had unlawful video surveillance or abused the terms of contact with the guests, you might consider filing a dispute with your credit card company together with filing a complaint with the Consumer Protection Agency or State Attorney General, both your state of residence and the state where the rental is located (if they are different). Consumer service providers get lots of complaints and many tend to push back as a primary defense, but take them much more seriously when payment is challenged or state watchdogs get involved.

 

[JoeWras]

If it were me, I would dispute the entire charge with my CC and write a scathing review, and have my family and friends also write poor reviews to really hammer him. If it happened as described, it's beyond creepy. This person should not be renting apartments. I'd be concerned about cameras you don't know about, and what he's doing with that footage.

The OP hasn't even shared whether it is "local" or "national," so I doubt they would want to put out a review. Perhaps shy about legal ramifications.

 

[EastWest Gal]

I am not with you on this one.

It seems you chose to see security cameras as negative It seems you have a sense of entitlement about possibly breaking the rules by letting others on the premises with their luggage without notifying the host. You could have instead chosen be thankful that the owner cared about their property enough to spend time and money to protect it and to catch illegal activity, and perhaps to protect you as well. Deliberately standing in front of a security camera and making faces at security cameras was unnecessarily hostile. It could be your hostility triggered the expulsion from the unit, not the just presence of others. But the presence of others in the unit may have been a breach of contract, allowing the owner to expel you.

We are only hearing one side of the story. I agree cameras should be disclosed, but apparently it is not against AirBNB policy, even in certain inside areas.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technol...ens-when-you-find-cameras-your-airbnb/585007/

Perhaps if you had apologized to the host, and let the host know there would be another couple inside briefly between the airport and your dinner reservation it would have helped. Also, your brother and sister-in-law carried their bags into the place, which was a concern for the owner. Since you had made a point of blocking the cameras, the owner felt you might be hiding something and made the choice to expel you.

I've only stayed in such a rental unit once, through Home Away, and we were treated exceptionally well. The owner checked with us before, during, and after our stay through the website, left a free bottle of wine, some chocolates and a small bottle of rum in addition to spices and condiments for our use. The owner made sure we had a good experience and we made sure to respect the owner's lovely property while we were there. It was made clear to us that no one besides us was allowed on the premises.

Make a stink if you want, but you may not get very far. We cannot change the behavior of others, but we can change our own behavior to have better experiences.

 

[retire to nature]

I own a number of VRBO rentals (and have rented as occupant a number of units also) and have the following thoughts:

1. If you were going to have additional guests enter the rental that should have been disclosed to the owner. Frankly, it happens all of the time and as long as the additional guests are not sleeping over I am usually fine with it. Often pricing is based on the number of guests and allowing additional people to use the unit but not sleepover is a gray area. What if you invited 6 additional people over? It is hard to draw the line. Nevertheless, I believe you should have informed the owner.

I agreed with his quote.

I have airbnb place, but this case owner maybe hired a company to watch for the reservation. So from the company's safe side not to be grouch by owner, it would have been more strict in this case.

So as a host, biggest concerns are what kind ppl come and they would maintain the property well. I also have no anyone without pre-approval comment on my house rule. Because without it, ppl would think like you. They can utilize my property to store luggage or use bathroom or shower etc. Or dont need to find a place to chill out. etc. This misunderstanding happen all the time if there is no rules. some of my guests visited their friends and bring them over here as non overnight. Then, I would alarm those ppl to monitoring closely not following rules.

If you did asked about extra guests even of a short period time, it would have been better. at least you were fine until this violation.

But from my perspective, blocking camera is big red card. I think thats why you were kicked out. you brought guests without telling and blocked camera. Host's concern and anxiety will go up. They know they followed where they can install the camera not to show privacy. so from their viewpoint, no problem.

Also, due to your violation, it is cancelled, i am not sure they charged the whole period time or not. But they are losing money due to your fault. They would try to collect money as much as possible.

This forum ppl, well education and wealthy, but out there, there are so much bad ppl. I had a guest booked to do drugs with non registered guests over.

It is hard to present what kind person we are. But from my experience, who follow rules are very considerate stay in the property.

 

[Gumby]

...
I agree cameras should be disclosed, but apparently it is not against AirBNB policy, even in certain inside areas.
...

That may be AirBNB policy, but the owner must also comply with state law. In certain states, you cannot audio or video record people without their consent. If I were the OP, I'd look into the applicable state law and call the attorney general's office if the law prohibits such recordings.

 

[ikubak]

I appreciate the comments of those that side with the owner. it helps me understand what his concerns could be.

I was charged for extra guests. The owner stated that he had six external cameras and could see me coming and going even if I stood I stood in front of his creeper cam. I didn't have an issue with the other external cameras as they weren't a couple of feet from the crotch. If he had all those cameras then he knew there were only two guests seeking accomodations that night. That was the question he asked me. I answered there would be two and my answer was truthful.

The owner said I had broken the law and reported to the online company that I had more than two guests and had broken local laws. I submit that the owner lied to the company and to the guest.

Maybe I was a uncooperative guest, but I didn't lie to the owner or the company. I didn't break any house rules or local laws.

 

[braumeister]

I don't see how we can give you any more specific advice without knowing what rental company you were using.

 

[ivinsfan]

My sister has several Airbnb rentals, it's how she makes her living. So she is called the host. Some are called super hosts, she is one of those. I agree that the extra people in the rental is a gray area, but she would not cause trouble over that. Each house has rules and hers state absolutely no parties or gatherings. That is very important for her neighbors.

I've stayed in quite a few vrbo and airbnb rentals with no issues, but you are in someone's home and I have found hotel beds to be consistently more comfortable.

Hold on are you saying friends or family shouldn't even enter the rental? Sleeping over is one thing, but visiting?


I'm still hung up over the breaking the law thing, if you weren't told there were cameras how could you be accused of covering them up?



IMO when you leave the unit you should be told that cameras are used and which rooms are monitored so you can decide if you want that rental.