Falsely accused of extra guests

[JoshTrent]

I am a frequent user of Short Term Rentals, but I do not own one.

It's great to read the perspective of @phil1ben - I think they are spot on from an owner's perspective.

I enjoy staying in Hotels, but there are times when a Short Term Rental is the appropriate choice. They are two completely different beasts, with very few similarities.

I have had all sorts of experiences with Short Terms, and my suggestion for your situation would be.. Offer to pay for the single night with the (4) guests. Write an HONEST Review (not vindictive) about your experience. Be done with it. The police aren't coming after you, the host isn't taking you to court, learn from the experience and move on.

As a renter, in the future I suggest..
1) reading ALOT of reviews about the properties you are interested in booking.
2) communicate PRIOR to booking with the owner of the property - ask the questions you have about that specific property, but also any general questions you might have. This is also a good time to bring up any special situations for your stay.
3) communicate DURING your stay - ask questions (if any come up) about the property and/or make statements of fact about the property (e.g. the toilet runs, there is a big carpet stain, something stinks, etc.). If warranted, take photos/videos.
4) communicate AFTER your stay - let the host know what you liked/disliked about the property, and be gracious.

Steps 1 & 2 - will give you insight into the host. This will go a long ways into your experience at the property.

Step 3 - may help you after your stay, should there be a dispute.

Step 4 - is just common courtesy and it gives the Host feedback that lets them improve.

The last thing I want when staying at a Short Term, are surprises.. it only makes sense that the Host would be thinking the same thing. I find that communication helps me (and them) avoid surprises. In my experience, I find that I tend to book more with Hosts who communicate well, and really act like they are completely vested in my experience.

just my $0.02

 

[ivinsfan]

JoshT what exactly is the OP supposed to learn?



He didn't have 4 guests stay over why should he say he did? The host could learn a thing or two, common courtesy among them. The host could have asked directly are those 2 extra people sleeping over and also explained yes I do have inside cameras and said where these cameras were located. I don't know of any town anywhere that would justify a police call over this petty crap.

 

[Scratchy]

Sorry to be unsympathetic but I suspect if we heard the host's side of this story it would sound totally different. OP's account is a bit convoluted. He has persevered on certain points but has not addressed simple relevant questions (like what company was he dealing with). If his communication with the host was similar, I'm not surprised the host lost patience.

To be clear, I am not condoning the practice of placing internal cameras.

 

[ivinsfan]

Sorry to be unsympathetic but I suspect if we heard the host's side of this story it would sound totally different. OP's account is a bit convoluted. He has persevered on certain points but has not addressed simple questions (like what company was he dealing with). If his communication with the host was similar, I'm not surprised the host lost patience.

To be clear, I am not condoning the practice of placing internal cameras.

I don't have a huge issue with not stating the name of the company..it could be a smaller outfit and he doesn't want any more negative blowback from them...I am curious if it was a domestic US location for the rental.

 

[JoeWras]

I don't have a huge issue with not stating the name of the company..it could be a smaller outfit and he doesn't want any more negative blowback from them...I am curious if it was a domestic US location for the rental.

We've already asked for general information (local or national) and there has been silence. We're spinning here. Time to find the "Thread ignore" pulldown.

 

[RetireeRobert]

OP---ok, you have had enough feedback, and you seem convinced you were wronged.

Have you disputed charge with CC company or not? it is that simple.
Whether to also post an honest review on this lodging from your perspective, that is up to how badly you feel.

Tell us, did you--will you--dispute the charge with credit card company---or did you not use a credit card?

 

[Aerides]

The name of the company is irrelevant, we really don't like to get in the business of those call outs here anyway:

A couple of things might have set off the host. Let's assume for the sake of argument the host has had issue with 6 ppl instead of 2 in the past, and come home to a post-party-wreckage of a unit, or has had neighbors complain when a unit was used as a noisy party, or whatever. So the Owner is a bit uptight about that. The terms of the rental might have been very specific on that point.

When owner first asked if you had extra people, you automatically think that's creepy? "just two, a couple extra joined us for an hour to change, but only two for the rest of the night" - done.

You define external cameras as "creepy crotch cameras" which seems odd. Not just cameras. You then covered and obscured the sight lines of the external cameras as you were coming and going, and made drinky-faces at them. Then when he asks you about that, you lie to him and say you aren't covering the cameras.

So now your host is extra super uptight. He thinks he has someone with extra guests partying it up, who is lying to him and covering his tracks.

I think you're both in the wrong. Your host is probably too suspicious to be a host and overreacted, and you are overly sensitive to the right of the host to keep an eye on his property. Heck, there are cameras in the hallways, lobbies, in hotels.

I'd pay for the actual stay and move on.

 

[ivinsfan]

I'm reading with interest. As I've mentioned before we snowbird in SGU and I rent a big unit. Last one was 4 bedroom, 3 1/2 baths..


Friends drive from MN and can spend a week or two and then I have got boatloads of family in SLC who can come down for a weekend. On the drop down for guests I always put 4 people. When it comes time to finalize I also tell owner/booker that due to family living close I might occasionally have 6 but only for a long weekend.



I've never had a bit of pushback on that but I always book a bigger unit then we actually need.

 

[ikubak]

The name of the company is irrelevant, we really don't like to get in the business of those call outs here anyway:

A couple of things might have set off the host. Let's assume for the sake of argument the host has had issue with 6 ppl instead of 2 in the past, and come home to a post-party-wreckage of a unit, or has had neighbors complained when a unit was used as a party, or whatever. So the Owner is a bit uptight about that. The terms of the rental might have been very specific on that point.

When owner first asked if you had extra people, you automatically think that's creepy? "just two, a couple extra joined us for an hour to change, but only two for the rest of the night" - done.

You define external cameras as "creepy crotch cameras" which seems odd. Not just cameras. You then covered and obscured the sight lines of the external cameras as you were coming and going, and made drinky-faces at them. Then when he asks you about that, you lie to him and say you aren't covering the cameras.

So now your host is extra super uptight. He thinks he has someone with extra guests partying it up, who is lying to him and covering his tracks.

I think you're both in the wrong. Your host is probably not too suspicious to be a host and overreacted, and you are overly sensitive to the right of the host to keep an eye on his property. Heck, there are cameras in the hallways, lobbies, in hotels.

I'd pay for the actual stay and move on.

I appreciate your input but take issue with your assertion that I lied to the owner. While I was away from the rental unit, the host texted me and asked, that I not cover his security cameras. At the time of his text I had two suspected devices covered inside the unit. I assumed he was talking about those devices since they were covered (I don't think of standing in front of a camera for 5 seconds as covering it) and the owner used the plural when referring to cameras so again, I assumed he was again referring to the two inside the unit. I responded, "There are no blocked cameras outside the building." That's a true statement. A communication problem? Perhaps but I had my suspicions about the owner and based on his phrasing of the question, I thought he slipped up and was talking about the two suspected interior cameras that were not disclosed. Undisclosed interior cameras are serious.

Bottom line, he said he had six external cameras and could see me coming and going. If that's true (he lied to me and the company about several things), then he knew there weren't 4 people staying at his rental. He lied to the company about local laws and lied about how many were sleeping there. I distrusted him but did not lie to either him or customer service when trying to resolve the issue. Even went to the police department to answer any questions in the event that I had broken laws. Not exactly the actions of a guilty party, no?

I know we've beat this dead horse to a pulp so I'll just add that the best course of action seems to be to dispute this with my CC company. I'll pay the rate for one night for two people and dispute the rest. Lesson learned. Once this has been resolved I'll leave an accurate review. Not scathing but accurate. Some guests might be looking for this kind of host.

 

[ivinsfan]

OP can I ask why you simply didn't straight out say to the owner, Do you have inside cameras in our unit and if so what rooms are they in.

 

[NW-Bound]

OP can I ask why you simply didn't straight out say to the owner, Do you have inside cameras in our unit and if so what rooms are they in.

+1

I would have taken photos of the suspicious devices to use as evidence later.

I would not make faces to the exterior cameras. It's childish.

The crotch-level camera may appear offensive, but is it? It's apparently not concealed. It's not pointing up to look up women's dresses.

 

[dirtbiker]

I guess I would prefer if the OP addressed the burning question that has been asked several times. What company? If you don't want to say for whatever reason, just say so, so we can move on. It's rather frustrating. I'm beginning to wonder if that type of communication may have led to the issues with the host...

 

[ikubak]

OP can I ask why you simply didn't straight out say to the owner, Do you have inside cameras in our unit and if so what rooms are they in.

Because the owner texted that there were only external cameras. If I found internal cameras and confronted the owner with that finding, it could escalate in unexpected ways and might put me and DW at risk. We were leaving the next day and I was ok with just covering anything I thought were undisclosed internal camaras and getting out of there.

I'll admit I wasn't myself. The day prior to arriving I had served on a grand jury and convicted a man of murder. I was probably a little more paranoid than usual. But again, this owner gave me a bad vibe within 30 minutes of arriving and he ended up lying about local laws, law enforcement dispatched to the rental unit and video supplied to police to press charges. It might have just been two paranoid people interacting with each other but I didn't lied to him or the company at any time.

It was a very strange situation, I know. Hard to believe but I gave you guys the short version. This all took place in 26 hours.

 

[ivinsfan]

Because the owner texted that there were only external cameras. If I found internal cameras and confronted the owner with that finding, it could escalate in unexpected ways and might put me and DW at risk. We were leaving the next day and I was ok with just covering anything I thought were undisclosed internal camaras and getting out of there.

I'll admit I wasn't myself. The day prior to arriving I had served on a grand jury and convicted a man of murder. I was probably a little more paranoid than usual. But again, this owner gave me a bad vibe within 30 minutes of arriving and he ended up lying about local laws, law enforcement dispatched to the rental unit and video supplied to police to press charges. It might have just been two paranoid people interacting with each other but I didn't lied to him or the company at any time.

It was a very strange situation, I know. Hard to believe but I gave you guys the short version. This all took place in 26 hours.

And that's a very good reason and make sense. When you think about it the guy knows where you are and has keys to access the property. The whole thing sounds really stressful.

 

[ivinsfan]

I guess I would prefer if the OP addressed the burning question that has been asked several times. What company? If you don't want to say for whatever reason, just say so, so we can move on. It's rather frustrating. I'm beginning to wonder if that type of communication may have led to the issues with the host...

Did you read his last post. The owner knows his name who knows what else about him...for my part I am happier that the last several rentals I have done use professional on site rental managers. There is no direct contact between the owner and the renter. The owner had the op's cell number.


He doesn't owe us the name of the company if he feels they aren't looking out for him or if the owner might continue going off on him.

 

[ikubak]

+1

I would have taken photos of the suspicious devices to use as evidence later.

I would not make faces to the exterior cameras. It's childish.

The crotch-level camera may appear offensive, but is it? It's apparently not concealed. It's not pointing up to look up women's dresses.

The faces in the camera...not my best moment, agreed. Wine will do that.

Once I was threatened with a law suit, I hurried back to the rental unit (we were at a family party 15 miles away) and removed my belongings as quickly as possible and took pictures of the covered devices. We should have taken more pics. We were a bit distraught at the time. We then waited for the police to arrive. Here we learned the owner lied to us and no police were dispatched. We confirmed this with the local police dept the next day.

In retrospect I should not have entered the unit to recover my things but instead asked the police retrieve them. This would have resulted in a police report showing two overnight bags were recovered and they probably would have taken pictures if requested. It would have been hard for someone to claim four people were staying when only two overnight bags were recovered and no evidence of two additional people. But when really strange things like this happen it's hard to think straight.

And for those who have asked, I haven't disclosed the owner or the company. I am still working through this. I don't think calling out either is necessary for the discussion.

Thanks for the input.

 

[pacergal]

OP--
Based on what you have written, my "creep vibe" would be going, also.
I see absolutely no reason to have a camera at crotch level. If you want to see the landing/door area, put the camera up above. And asking why you covered up the cameras is a red alert, whether he was talking about the outside ones or not. Occuring after you covered the inside objects you felt might be cameras, is really disturbing to me.

And threatening you with police and eviction, which may have been illegal, is plain weird.
Although, at that point, if it were me, I would have just vacated the premises and found someplace else if at all possible.
I would dispute the charges with your CC, and write a letter to what ever rental entity does the advertising/intake/etc. And write a review, with just the facts as you found them.

 

[ivinsfan]

Our very first SGU rental was almost 15 years ago before this became common. It was the bottom lock off unit (the entire bottom floor) of a brand new home.



The owners were upstairs and we shared the backyard. We returned there multiple times and became friends. Once we got there for 2 weeks and they left the same day,saying keep an eye on things for us.



Now imagine instead of this couple you ran into the guy the OP did. Who wants to be treated like that, let alone pay good money for it.


I once had a guy call me about his VRBO house and he seemed fine until I asked about security deposit, he said, "I don't need one, I have a way to keep an eye on things" I couldn't hangup quick enough.

 

[ikubak]

OP--
Based on what you have written, my "creep vibe" would be going, also.
I see absolutely no reason to have a camera at crotch level. If you want to see the landing/door area, put the camera up above. And asking why you covered up the cameras is a red alert, whether he was talking about the outside ones or not. Occuring after you covered the inside objects you felt might be cameras, is really disturbing to me.

And threatening you with police and eviction, which may have been illegal, is plain weird.
Although, at that point, if it were me, I would have just vacated the premises and found someplace else if at all possible.
I would dispute the charges with your CC, and write a letter to what ever rental entity does the advertising/intake/etc. And write a review, with just the facts as you found them.

Excellent advice pacergal.

I'm willing to bet the owner has had bad renters before but in my case, I think he assumed I was trouble from the moment I arrived.

Thanks for the input.

 

[ivinsfan]

Excellent advice pacergal.

I'm willing to bet the owner has had bad renters before but in my case, I think he assumed I was trouble from the moment I arrived.

Thanks for the input.

Bad owner beget bad renters, that's the way it works.

 

[target2019]

Because the owner texted that there were only external cameras. If I found internal cameras and confronted the owner with that finding, it could escalate in unexpected ways and might put me and DW at risk. We were leaving the next day and I was ok with just covering anything I thought were undisclosed internal camaras and getting out of there.

I'll admit I wasn't myself. The day prior to arriving I had served on a grand jury and convicted a man of murder. I was probably a little more paranoid than usual. But again, this owner gave me a bad vibe within 30 minutes of arriving and he ended up lying about local laws, law enforcement dispatched to the rental unit and video supplied to police to press charges. It might have just been two paranoid people interacting with each other but I didn't lied to him or the company at any time.

It was a very strange situation, I know. Hard to believe but I gave you guys the short version. This all took place in 26 hours.

No doubt the owner has had shite renters in the past. But to assume you were one was a mistake. But try to bring your story down to simple steps. When your relatives put one foot over the threshold, probably a technical violation, but I'm sure all VRBO hosts don't act that way.

The lesson here is that if a legit hotel room is available, use that. Our daughter recently tried to steer us to a rental near a lake. When I saw the queen bed and a cot in an old house, I compared to Golden Nugget where the same price got us two King beds and other niceties.

Another lesson? Everybody lies...

 

[euro]

+1



I would not make faces to the exterior cameras. It's childish.

The crotch-level camera may appear offensive, but is it? It's apparently not concealed. It's not pointing up to look up women's dresses.

This!. I haven't read all of the thread so I may have missed similar responses, but when I read the OP, I have to say that I CAN in fact understand that it may have looked to the host like there were 4 people trying to stay at that place. I suppose the OPs explanation for why 4 people, all with overnight luggage, walked into the property upon check-in does sound reasonable and I'm sure there was no ill-intent. However, one has to admit that this is a pretty unusual scenario. It certainly LOOKED like 4 people were planning on staying there. So, that was strike 1 as far as the hosts were concerned. Then, the OP's childish behavior of covering up the camera while his guests left the property, just tossed more fuel on the fire. After all, why would he behave that way unless he has something to hide? Then, after being warned about covering up cameras, he felt it necessary to again cover them up on the way in or out of the property. Strike 3.
I'm not saying I'm endorsing the use of cameras even outside, but I suspect this host has had bad experiences in the past that led him to install the cameras. As long as it is disclosed, it is up to the host to decide. The customer can then either rent the place or not. If he decides to rent, please play by the rules.

As far as trying to recover some of the money, I agree that a credit card dispute is probably to best path.

 

[Gumby]

I don't think the issue was standing in front of the outside entry camera. Rather I think the owner had two undisclosed inside cameras to spy on his guests, which the OP found and covered up. The owner virtually admitted as much when he said the OP had covered up the camera"s". I think very few people would ever describe momentarily standing in front of a single outside camera as "covering up the cameras".

I don't know where this occurred, but in some states, the owner would have committed a crime by recording the OP inside the unit without his consent.

 

[ivinsfan]

No doubt the owner has had shite renters in the past. But to assume you were one was a mistake. But try to bring your story down to simple steps. When your relatives put one foot over the threshold, probably a technical violation, but I'm sure all VRBO hosts don't act that way.

The lesson here is that if a legit hotel room is available, use that. Our daughter recently tried to steer us to a rental near a lake. When I saw the queen bed and a cot in an old house, I compared to Golden Nugget where the same price got us two King beds and other niceties.

Another lesson? Everybody lies...

AirBnb is a home away from home..you can't have someone even walk into your unit? That's bogus.

 

[dirtbiker]

No doubt the owner has had shite renters in the past. But to assume you were one was a mistake. But try to bring your story down to simple steps. When your relatives put one foot over the threshold, probably a technical violation, but I'm sure all VRBO hosts don't act that way.

The lesson here is that if a legit hotel room is available, use that. Our daughter recently tried to steer us to a rental near a lake. When I saw the queen bed and a cot in an old house, I compared to Golden Nugget where the same price got us two King beds and other niceties.

Another lesson? Everybody lies...

I don't think this should be the takeaway. VRBO/AirBNB can offer a lot more than what a hotel can. My worst experience with AirBNB is FAR better than my worst hotel experience. Overall, I've been happier with AirBNBs than hotels. I'm not saying a bad experience can't happen, as the OP has proven, but I generally prefer a VRBO/AirBNB over a hotel most of the time.