A simple, inexpensive, yet powerful solar storage system

It does not work like that. when you make 900W AC at 120 volts with an inverter, the input current is 10 times that due to the voltage difference, plus conversion loss.
With a single battery I think in terms of running a microwave on high power for a minute or so to heat a meal, etc.
 
I believe these are 100W panels each. I know the price is good, but I was pretty sure they are each 100W in size.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07JXYTFF7/

If I got the wrong ones I'll return them.
Can I test them to know for sure with a volt meter ?


I saw their size as 42.2"x19.6". At 100W, that's 17.4W/sq.ft. It's a reasonable number for a monocrystalline panel.

And I looked at the specs. It's indeed 100W/panel. That's a decent deal. I was wrong.

As far as testing, it's easy to do with an ordinary VOM or DVM. The specs say

Open-Circuit Voltage (Voc): 24.3V
Optimum Operating Voltage (Vmp): 20.4V
Optimum Operating Current (Imp): 4.91A
Short-Circuit Current (Isc): 5.21A


You cannot test for the optimum voltage and current. An MPPT controller will do a sweep to find this point (which varies with light condition). What you can do is to verify the Voc and Isc.

Put the panel facing the sun squarely. Measure the terminal voltage. That's Voc.

Put the meter into current measurement mode. Short the meter across the panels terminals. That's Isc.

Now, the light intensity will affect Isc more than Voc. Voc on the other hand is dependent more on the panel temperature. The colder, the higher Voc.

Note that it is quite safe to short panel terminals when the voltage is this low. With larger panels putting out 60V, you will draw a nice arc when you break contact after shorting.

When you have a string of panels, the following video shows what happens with just 4 panels in series (4x60V = 240V). Yet, panels can be strung up for up to 600V.

 
......

Then to run the power to the controller using:
BougeRV 10 Feet 10AWG Solar Extension Cable with Female and Male Connector with Extra Free Pair of Connectors Solar Panel Adaptor Kit Tool (10FT Red + 10FT Black)

I made a mistake above, it's actually 20 feet that I think I'll have to run the wires from the panels to the controller.
 
I can see 1 battery has some limitations, but the good news is my coffee maker uses 900W probably for 10 minutes , which I calculate to be 7.5Amps for 10 minutes. Meaning I'll be able to make coffee every morning.

It does not work like that. when you make 900W AC at 120 volts with an inverter, the input current is 10 times that due to the voltage difference, plus conversion loss.
With a single battery I think in terms of running a microwave on high power for a minute or so to heat a meal, etc.

Right.

Power (Watts) = Voltage (Volts) x Current (Amps)

To provide 900W, an ideal inverter with no loss will suck 75A from the battery. 900W = 12V x 75A.

A real-life inverter may have an efficiency of 85%, so it will draw 75A/0.85 = 88A.

Lead-acid batteries will give unprepared users a big disappointment when powering large loads with an inverter. Run times will be measured in single minutes, instead of tens of minutes.

One more thing I like to point out. In my example earlier, if you draw 100A from the battery, it is good for 6 minutes. But if you parallel 2 batteries so that each will supply only 50A, the time will not double to 12 minutes but will be 17 minutes.

The harder you draw from a lead-acid battery, the time collapses exponentially.
 
Once you have used an inverter on lead-acid batteries, you will appreciate lithium batteries.

They are so wonderful, their Peukert factor is close to 1. An 80Ah lithium battery will provide 1 A for 80 hours, and 80A for close to 1 hour, compared to 6 minutes with a lead-acid battery claiming to be of the same capacity.

Once you own a lithium battery, this is very easy to check out (and to be gratified).
 
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I made a mistake above, it's actually 20 feet that I think I'll have to run the wires from the panels to the controller.


10AWG wire has a resistance of 1 milliOhm/ft, and length of wire is 40 ft (positive & negative). So, that's 0.04 Ohm.

Two panels in parallel putting out about 5A each, for 10A total.

Voltage drop is 10A x 0.04 Ohm = 0.4 Volt.

The panels have 4V of headroom over the battery. There should not be a problem.
 
I see where my math was wrong... darn.. So either 2 deep cycle lead acid batteries in parallel (and that is cutting it close) or a lithium battery or back to coffee on the campfire.

I'm going to time my coffee maker in the morning.
 
Two deep-cycle batteries cost about $200 at Costco, I think.

A 100Ah 12V LFP battery costs less than $400 from Amazon.

The LFP will outlast the lead-acid batteries by far, both in run time, and more importantly, in longevity.
 
Two deep-cycle batteries cost about $200 at Costco, I think.

A 100Ah 12V LFP battery costs less than $400 from Amazon.

The LFP will outlast the lead-acid batteries by far, both in run time, and more importantly, in longevity.

We moved into our current home a year ago, the battery for the back up sump pump was replaced in 2019 (AGM type), I'm guessing it would need replacement after ~ 5 years (should never really get used, other than testing for 10 seconds once in a while).

They sell for ~ $200, rated ~ 75 Amp-hours. I figure in 2~3 years, an LFP of that rating should be pretty cost competitive, though I'd also need to add a charger/BMS (though the sump motor is fused at 20A, so I don't need a high current BMS). I'd also have to disconnect the control box charging circuitry, and 'trick' it into thinking the battery is charged, so it doesn't set off an alarm or try to charge the battery on its own, but I don't think that should be too hard.

I also have a 12V 2500W inverter that I can connect to the car battery, and run a sump pump from that. So that's another emergency back up, but requires manual intervention.

-ERD50
 
All gadgets with lithium batteries have embedded electronics to monitor the battery state and to control the charging process, in order to avoid over-discharging them and overcharging them. It takes just a small IC chip or two to implement this function.

The problem is with the public buying the bare cells without any attached electronics, then abusing them.
If you buy something like battleborn lifepo4 batteries they come complete with the charge controller so battery management is not an issue these are still 870 for 1 kwh of power storage, good for 3000 to 5000 discharge cycles.
however if you buy a solar phone charger system from amazon and a propane camp stove, for the coffee etc, you might save some money, as well have devices to take home for the event of a long power failure (assuming you have an electric stove)
 
Yes you can make your own battery from LiFePO4 cells, but you also better buy a compatible BMS also. The packaged batteries have the BMS built in.
 
If you buy something like battleborn lifepo4 batteries they come complete with the charge controller so battery management is not an issue these are still 870 for 1 kwh of power storage, good for 3000 to 5000 discharge cycles.
however if you buy a solar phone charger system from amazon and a propane camp stove, for the coffee etc, you might save some money, as well have devices to take home for the event of a long power failure (assuming you have an electric stove)


The new breed of LFP (LiFePO4) 12V batteries comes with an internal BMS (Battery Management System). It is not a charge controller per se, but rather a circuit to monitor the individual voltages of the 4 cells inside the 12V package.

A typical BMS will disconnect the battery from the external circuit if: 1) any of the 4 cells exceeds 3.7V, and 2) any of the 4 cells drops below 2.4V. This protects the cells from being ruined by overcharging and overdischarging, even though the risk of fire from LFP cells is much less than other chemistries.

Another important function of the BMS is cell balancing. What happens is that cells don't age uniformly, and with time their voltages drift apart. The balancing function is to keep the cell voltages more even. Here's how it works.

An LFP cell full-charge voltage is 3.6V, so you will set the external charge controller voltage to 3.6V x 4 = 14.4V. However, suppose you have a weaker cell with less capacity than its cohorts, such that it gets full sooner. You may have the cell voltages as 3.9+3.5+3.5+3.5 = 14.4V. So, the weaker cell is getting overcharged.

Without opening up the battery case to measure the voltage of the individual cells, you will not be aware of the above condition. Enter the cell-balancing BMS.

What the BMS does is to detect any cell that has its voltage above 3.6V. It then applies a small load to that cell to bleed off the charge. Thus, the cell that is already full will not get charged further, while the other cell voltages slowly catch up.

The monitoring and control function of the BMS is contained in a single chip smaller than your fingernail. This supervisory chip then switches on/off a bank of high-current MOSFET transistors which can handle the 100s of ampere flowing in/out of the cells. Price of a BMS depends on its current rating, which dictates how many MOSFETs are employed. And the MOSFET heat must be dissipated by a large heatsink, which drives up the cost.

There are 12V 100Ah LFP batteries with an internal BMS going for $400 on Amazon. The BMS takes the risk off using the lithium cells. The BMS usually also provides short-circuit protection, by shutting off the MOSFETs when the drawn current exceeds a limit.
 
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Many portable inverters, meaning not meant for fixed installation, have built-in fuses. When they do, it's usually in the form of a bank of ATO/ATC automobile fuses. They are internal, and you need to remove the cover to see them. The inverter manual should mention this.

My inverters have no internal fuses. I wired them to the battery bus using DC circuit breakers. I also use breakers for the panel-to-controller and controller-to-battery paths.

If you use a fuse or breaker between the charge controller and the battery, be careful about breaking the contact to the battery while the panels are still connected to the controller. With a sudden loss of the load, the output voltage of the charge controller jumps up, and may destroy its output circuit.

Travelover told of losing his controller in the above manner.
 
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Thank you for your research and informative posts, NW-bound.
My RV has a built in charger and power supply for house power when plugged in, and it is a most rudimentary battery charger. They are notorious for overcharging and basically boiling off the water on the typical deep cycle battery or bank.
I am keeping it, but I protect my batteries by disconnecting them when the RV is plugged in for extended periods. It also disconnects the batteries from any small loads and thus I don't have to worry that they are discharging either.
In our next RV I will opt for your recommendation of a 3 function charger, inverter, and solar charge controller that is suited to the LFP batteries.
It just makes sense.
My current GC-2 batteries weigh 62 pounds each, two of them provide for 225 AH @20 hour rating.
Am I correct that a pair of these 100AH, with 100 amps each maximum discharge rate would be superior in function and equivalent in capacity to the pair of GC-2s?
https://www.amazon.com/LiFePO4-Battery-Perfect-Applications-Warranty/dp/B084DB36KW/ref=pd_lpo_3?pd_rd_i=B084DB36KW&th=1
 
If they're 6 volt batteries hooked up in series for 12 volts you are doubling the voltage but the amps stay the same. It's recommended to only discharge lead acid batteries to 50% so you're realistically only getting about 110 amp hours from these. So one 100 amp hour LiFePO4 battery would be equivalent. And may be better with the lack of voltage sag.
 
My RV has a built in charger and power supply for house power when plugged in, and it is a most rudimentary battery charger. They are notorious for overcharging and basically boiling off the water on the typical deep cycle battery or bank.
I am keeping it, but I protect my batteries by disconnecting them when the RV is plugged in for extended periods. It also disconnects the batteries from any small loads and thus I don't have to worry that they are discharging either.
In our next RV I will opt for your recommendation of a 3 function charger, inverter, and solar charge controller that is suited to the LFP batteries.
It just makes sense.


You do not want to use a battery charger meant for lead-acid batteries. They are usually not well regulated, and tend to overcharge the batteries and dry them out as you said. With lithium cells, overcharging will lead to a disaster. The LFP battery with a built-in BMS will get protected, but if the BMS fails it may not be pretty.

I came from the aerospace industry where things are usually designed so that it takes at least 2 failures to cause a major problem. If you use a proper charger, then it will take 2 failures to cause a battery overcharging condition: both the external charger and the battery internal BMS have to fail. This reduces the hazard.

LFP is much safer than the NMC (nickel manganese cobalt) and NCA (nickel cobalt aluminum) used in EVs. Still, why not stay safe and do the right thing?

Here's a guy who learned it the hard way. He put a subassembly of a used Tesla battery into an electric cart, then charged it using the wrong charger. And he did not have a BMS for the Tesla battery pack.

It was amazing that the fantastic resulting fire did not cause more damage than it did.


 
In our next RV
I have no intention of upgrading that RV, it will stay lead acid and then the next RV would get fully retrofitted with the right stuff for LFP.
 
In a solar setup of 2 100W panels -> charge controller -> battery -> inverter. Is there a need for fuses between anything ?

Or for a cut-off switch ?
You should always have a fuse or circuit breaker as close to the battery terminal as possible. The battery is capable of delivering hundreds of amps if there is a short anywhere. You can literally connect welding cables to a battery and arc weld with it. The solar panel output is limited. So, while some manufacturers recommend a fuse between the panel and the controller, there is little danger of a fire if the panel is shorted. I put a cutoff switch on the panel input so if I disconnect the battery for some reason, the panel doesn't damage the controller, as NW alluded to.
 
You should always have a fuse or circuit breaker as close to the battery terminal as possible. The battery is capable of delivering hundreds of amps if there is a short anywhere. You can literally connect welding cables to a battery and arc weld with it. The solar panel output is limited. So, while some manufacturers recommend a fuse between the panel and the controller, there is little danger of a fire if the panel is shorted. I put a cutoff switch on the panel input so if I disconnect the battery for some reason, the panel doesn't damage the controller, as NW alluded to.

It's more like thousands of amps.

In my home solar system, I have 3 24V battery banks (11 kWh/11kWh/12kWh), each connected by a DC circuit breaker to the bus bars. The 4 inverters/chargers and 5 additional solar chargers are each connected to the big bus with DC breakers. I also put breakers between the solar panels and the chargers. It is true that the danger there is low, but I like to be able to turn on/off each circuit to test its individual operation.

In my motorhome, I have 2 100Ah LFP batteries in parallel. Each has a 100A ANL fuse right at the post. I actually had 3 LFP batteries, but did not find a place for the 3rd one. Two turned out to be plenty.

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ahttps://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/718iPHMZriL._AC_SX569_.jpg
 
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If they're 6 volt batteries hooked up in series for 12 volts you are doubling the voltage but the amps stay the same. It's recommended to only discharge lead acid batteries to 50% so you're realistically only getting about 110 amp hours from these. So one 100 amp hour LiFePO4 battery would be equivalent. And may be better with the lack of voltage sag.

Yes.

Two 225Ah GC2 batteries in series have the same usable capacity as one 100Ah LFP battery, but only when you draw 10A out of them. When running an inverter powering a large load such as a microwave or a cooktop burner, the GC2 would fall off fast, while a LFP still cruises.

And talking about voltage sag, lithium batteries in general are very "stiff". Their internal resistance is very low. Increasing the load from 1A to 100A, and the voltage does not sag much.
 
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I have no intention of upgrading that RV, it will stay lead acid and then the next RV would get fully retrofitted with the right stuff for LFP.

Well, you can upgrade the existing RV to enjoy the new stuff now, then move it to the new RV if you don't want to sell it with the RV.
 
I have a really lightweight aerodynamic trailer design in my head, and these light batteries are just the ticket. I'd have a couple to get the current up over 100A for that occasional big inverter draw.
 
I recently bought two of these used LFP industrial batteries. They are 24V 6p8s assemblies of Headway 38120 cells. There's no BMS.

The 6p8s configuration means 6 cells are parallel together in a group, then 8 groups are connected in series. One cell is capable of 200A continuous, so the assembly can do 1200A. At 24V, that's 28.8 kW (but for only 2.4 minutes). Crazy power!

The total capacity is only 1.23 kWh though, so this design was meant for short duration/high power applications.


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I bought one, tore it apart to inspect and measure each of the 48 cells individually, then reassembled the battery. The 1st one I bought was nearly spanking new, so why was it made surplus? In opening it up, I thought I found the reason. One of the balancing wires had a loose internal connection, so perhaps that's why the battery was taken out of service

I liked it so much, I bought a 2nd one. This one came a bit dusty, so apparently saw some use.

These Headway cells have the spec of 8Ah each. With the 1st battery, I measured from 8.20Ah to 8.76Ah, with the average being 8.51Ah. This battery was nearly unused, as I thought.

With the 2nd battery, I measured the cells from 7.70Ah to 8.16Ah, and the average was 7.99Ah. Still not bad.

I had an application for these batteries in my home solar system along with more inverters and panels I already have, but still have to work out the details of installation.
 
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If they're 6 volt batteries hooked up in series for 12 volts you are doubling the voltage but the amps stay the same. It's recommended to only discharge lead acid batteries to 50% so you're realistically only getting about 110 amp hours from these. So one 100 amp hour LiFePO4 battery would be equivalent. And may be better with the lack of voltage sag.

Yep, rather than spending ~$150 to replace the lead-acid batteries in my old Xantrax unit:

https://www.amazon.com/Xantrex-802-1500-XPower-Portable-Powerpack/dp/B00005RHQQ/

I instead spent $200 (on sale) & bought:

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B08P5SFV4D

If I did the math right, the useable capacity (calculated @80%) of the GoLabs is ~2/3 of the Xantrex, in a much more portable unit.

Though with a smaller inverter...which doesn't matter for my applications.
 
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