Standardized Covid Treatment Protocols?

[rodi]

I actually read this article and once again they pick and choose the stuff they want to highlight.


Some of the so called "flaws" they pointed were fairly minor and given the chaos of Covid probably also occurred in trials of other treatments.


In the US the medical complex had such a preset bias against ivermectin that no actual clinical trials were actually conducted, so then they can say that "no evidence" was found that it helps patients...chicken and the egg type thing.



I do get that BBC has a lot of hate towards people that are pro ivermectin.


I am neither pro nor con but it is interesting to watch this stuff play out. If they could only leave out the editorializing one might be more inclined to take what they say at face value.

How do you feel about Merck (manufacturer of ivermectin) stating it doesn't show effectiveness against covid? You would think they would be promoting it for better sales if there was credible research showing it was effective.

It is important to note that, to-date, our analysis has identified:

* No scientific basis for a potential therapeutic effect against COVID-19 from pre-clinical studies;
* No meaningful evidence for clinical activity or clinical efficacy in patients with COVID-19 disease, and;
* A concerning lack of safety data in the majority of studies.

We do not believe that the data available support the safety and efficacy of ivermectin beyond the doses and populations indicated in the regulatory agency-approved prescribing information.

https://www.merck.com/news/merck-statement-on-ivermectin-use-during-the-covid-19-pandemic/

 

[audreyh1]

It seems Brazil heavily relied on Ivermectin for a long time, yet it didn’t help overall for Covid treatment. A lot of this was experienced before vaccines were available.
https://www.businessinsider.com/bra...for-covid-frenzy-warning-to-us-experts-2021-9

Another issue seems to be several approaches that can help early after infection no longer help once someone is sick enough to be hospitalized, and I wonder if some of the studies were focused more on efficacy with hospitalized patients.

Personally I would go for the timely monoclonal antibody treatment assuming I experience a breakthrough infection. I’m trying to avoid that too and so will get a booster at 6 months.

On Merck - well they do have a new expensive Covid antiviral pill that they are trying to get approved for EUA.

 

[Koolau]

On Merck - well they do have a new expensive Covid antiviral pill that they are trying to get approved for EUA.

RE: Expensive. Many pharmaceuticals - especially those used for acute illness rather than chronic - are priced in terms of what the alternate treatment costs. IOW, what would you pay for a drug that would keep you out of the ICU on a ventilator? I'd pay a LOT! YMMV

 

[harllee]

RE: Expensive. Many pharmaceuticals - especially those used for acute illness rather than chronic - are priced in terms of what the alternate treatment costs. IOW, what would you pay for a drug that would keep you out of the ICU on a ventilator? I'd pay a LOT! YMMV

Wouldn't it be a lot cheaper to get the vaccine? For most people the Covid vaccine will keep you off a ventilator and only costs the government a few dollars.

 

[Koolau]

Wouldn't it be a lot cheaper to get the vaccine? For most people the Covid vaccine will keep you off a ventilator and only costs the government a few dollars.

Absolutely agree 100%. Just now looking forward to my M booster!

However, when you end up in the "breakthrough" group, it would be convenient to have (maybe an expensive - but effective, we hope) back up plan. It's not one or the other - it's more about covering all the potential bases.

I'm sure the maker of the drug understands that the number of recipients will be small - since most folks ARE (thankfully) getting vax'd. That's another reason they may need to charge more - but that's a different discussion so YMMV.

 

[explanade]

RE: Expensive. Many pharmaceuticals - especially those used for acute illness rather than chronic - are priced in terms of what the alternate treatment costs. IOW, what would you pay for a drug that would keep you out of the ICU on a ventilator? I'd pay a LOT! YMMV

That pill isn't guaranteed.

They are touting the trial data because it reduced hospitalizations and deaths by 50%.

Good but you have a 50% chance that the pill doesn't keep you out of the hospital.

Odds with vaccine are better.

 

[harllee]

Absolutely agree 100%. Just now looking forward to my M booster!

However, when you end up in the "breakthrough" group, it would be convenient to have (maybe an expensive - but effective, we hope) back up plan. It's not one or the other - it's more about covering all the potential bases.

I'm sure the maker of the drug understands that the number of recipients will be small - since most folks ARE (thankfully) getting vax'd. That's another reason they may need to charge more - but that's a different discussion so YMMV.

In my state over 40% of the adults are not vaccinated--those are most of the people that will be wanting the expensive antiviral pill.

 

[Another Reader]

In my state over 40% of the adults are not vaccinated--those are most of the people that will be wanting the expensive antiviral pill.

Curious, are the mAb's widely available and encouraged, as they are in Florida?
The infusion is free to the patient.

 

[Koolau]

In my state over 40% of the adults are not vaccinated--those are most of the people that will be wanting the expensive antiviral pill.

Heh, heh, sorry, you're not gonna suck me into a discussion of who should get "free" health care. YMMV

 

[Koolau]

That pill isn't guaranteed.

They are touting the trial data because it reduced hospitalizations and deaths by 50%.

Good but you have a 50% chance that the pill doesn't keep you out of the hospital.

Odds with vaccine are better.

I think that goes without saying. The vax. IS better. BUT vax. or no vax. some folks get the disease. If there is a pill (cheap or outrageously expensive) wouldn't you want a chance to take it? Even if it only offers 50% chance of staying out of the hospital, it might be well worth the cost. Imagine the cost of a month in intensive care. Now, how much would you (or the insurance company or Medicade) pay to get a 50% chance that you (or they) don't have to spend for that hospitalization stay?

One more time: It's not "either or." How about we have both available?

 

[Time2]

I got a print out from my doctor that is from FLCCC.


https://covid19criticalcare.com/


The print out covers, Prevention Protocol and Early Treatment Protocol, it can be seen on this URL.


https://covid19criticalcare.com/covid-19-protocols/i-mask-plus-protocol/


The controversial Ivermectin is recommended on this site and by my doctors as Early Treatment Protocol.



https://covid19criticalcare.com/ivermectin-in-covid-19/


Note: under the Ivermectin drop down, there are 5 links to further information.


My only info as to the validity of the sites information, is that both doctors at my physicians office follow the recommendations.

 

[Luvtoride]

Curious, are the mAb's widely available and encouraged, as they are in Florida?
The infusion is free to the patient.

Yes, here in NJ the antibody infusions are widely available and being encouraged for older folks and immune compromised people getting breakthrough Covid. I got the infusion last week and several of our family and friends who caught Covid from me, got it as well. It is completely free (government is paying for it) and is a simple 2 hour visit to a hospital or clinic where they are set up to administer it.
I'm feeling much better since receiving it last Thursday as is all others I know who have gotten the"Mabs" infusion. The key is do it as quickly as possible after testing positive.

 

[Another Reader]

Yes, here in NJ the antibody infusions are widely available and being encouraged for older folks and immune compromised people getting breakthrough Covid. I got the infusion last week and several of our family and friends who caught Covid from me, got it as well. It is completely free (government is paying for it) and is a simple 2 hour visit to a hospital or clinic where they are set up to administer it.
I'm feeling much better since receiving it last Thursday as is all others I know who have gotten the"Mabs" infusion. The key is do it as quickly as possible after testing positive.

Very difficult to get in the Bay Area and in California in general from what I hear. At Stanford you can only get it if you qualify for a research project. If I tested positive, I would be looking for the nearest place it's easy to get, even if I had to travel out of state.

 

[retire-early]

Yes, here in NJ the antibody infusions are widely available and being encouraged for older folks and immune compromised people getting breakthrough Covid. I got the infusion last week and several of our family and friends who caught Covid from me, got it as well. It is completely free (government is paying for it) and is a simple 2 hour visit to a hospital or clinic where they are set up to administer it.
I'm feeling much better since receiving it last Thursday as is all others I know who have gotten the"Mabs" infusion. The key is do it as quickly as possible after testing positive.

Can you tell me if there is a website to search for places to get the infusions?

Or did you just call major hospitals?

 

[Another Reader]

National infusion center locator. You may have to call around, as this covers all kinds of infusions.

https://locator.infusioncenter.org/

 

[Luvtoride]

Can you tell me if there is a website to search for places to get the infusions?

Or did you just call major hospitals?

Retire, yes, call local hospitals, many are offering them. Additionally, the independent medical testing lab that did my positive COVID test, called me a couple of days later (too late as I had already received the infusion) offering to give me the antibodies. In my case, I had an appointment the day after i tested positive!

 

[retire-early]

National infusion center locator. You may have to call around, as this covers all kinds of infusions.

https://locator.infusioncenter.org/

Thank you!
I am going to bookmark that website.

 

[Another Reader]

Retire, yes, call local hospitals, many are offering them. Additionally, the independent medical testing lab that did my positive COVID test, called me a couple of days later (too late as I had already received the infusion) offering to give me the antibodies. In my case, I had an appointment the day after i tested positive!

New Jersey is on it. Florida is "come on in." I can drive to Reno and there is a place to get it privately for a hefty fee. California? Who knows? The politics of distribution are insane.

 

[harllee]

Curious, are the mAb's widely available and encouraged, as they are in Florida?
The infusion is free to the patient.

At my home in Chapel Hill NC I think it is possible to get the infusion if you meet requirements but I think you have to go through your doctor. On the other hand at my mountain home I understand that the local hospital is out of the antibody treatment and you would have to drive a ways to get the infusion.

 

[JT90505]

In my state over 40% of the adults are not vaccinated--those are most of the people that will be wanting the expensive antiviral pill.

or Ivermectin.

 

[Time2]

There is a lot of confusion out there.

I just tested positive at urgent care clinic in Florida. They gave me a brochure about the and told me to call the "Federal Hotline" for that. The "Fed" person I spoke to made it very clear that I had to get a referral from a Doctor in order to get the treatment and that I SHOULD NOT contact a facility administering the treatment. I then called my Doctor for a referral. His front office told me that the treatment was only available at hospitals and he don't know to give a referral. I did some internet searching and found a treatment center (hurricane shelter) about 6 miles from my house. I showed up, walked in and received the treatment at no cost. No more than a 5 minute wait to start and 15 minute observation period afterward. I wasn't asked for insurance, or my Covid test results.

Here is a website that lists monoclonal antibody treatment sites, arrgh,it is only for Florida. Pick your county and view. I'm in Fl. and also have a MAB site within 6 miles of my house.



https://floridahealthcovid19.gov/monoclonal-antibody-therapy/mab-locator/

 

[tmm99]

I've just read that the pills Pfizer is developing is quite effective aginst COVID if taken early. This could be a game-changer!

"An experimental pill to treat Covid developed by the US company Pfizer cuts the risk of hospitalisation or death by 89% in vulnerable adults, clinical trial results suggest."

Not sure why it says this is intended just for high-risk folks.

Also...

"The Pfizer drug, known as a protease inhibitor, is designed to block an enzyme the virus needs in order to multiply. When taken alongside a low dose of another antiviral pill called ritonavir, it stays in the body for longer."

Evidently, ritonavir is an HIV drug.

https://www.amazon.ca/Hexagonal-Imp...jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

 

[Another Reader]

This is precisely the approach with HIV. The protease inhibitor by itself is not sufficient. The drug is paired with a second drug with a different MOA. If this is not done, the virus may mutate before being wiped out and the first drug becomes ineffective.

 

[oiseux]

This is precisely the approach with HIV. The protease inhibitor by itself is not sufficient. The drug is paired with a second drug with a different MOA. If this is not done, the virus may mutate before being wiped out and the first drug becomes ineffective.

My understanding is the ritonavir is used because it inhibits the breakdown of the main drug by the liver. It was indeed originally developed for HIV but it turned out to be suited for increasing bioavailability of other drugs.

Here's a blog post with some additional background:
https://www.acsh.org/news/2021/11/05/remdesivir-get-out-way-pfizers-antiviral-shines-15923
And even more detail, where the author compares the molecular structure of the new Pfizer compound to another compound that was used against Hep C.
https://www.acsh.org/news/2021/09/2...ome-good-news-about-mercks-molnupiravir-15835

I think they targeted at risk patients first but there is nothing I think that will restrict the usage, other than further exploring side effects (although the study results don't note any higher than placebo). https://www.biopharmadive.com/news/pfizer-covid-pill-antiviral-hospitalization/609554/
Current capacity it only 50,000,000 doses, by the end of the year.

Additional enrollment in the study was terminated on the advice of the independent review board, who directed it to be taken forward immediately for approvals, due to the strength of the results. But additional trials are ongoing, per the link above, on different populations (including vaccinated and as a prophylaxis). Two more firms are pursuing once-daily pills, with the Japanese firm in Stage 2/3 trials. The Pfizer pill is twice daily for five days (2 Paxlovid, 1 ritonavir).

 

[explanade]

It reduced hospitalization by 89% for unvaccinated people.

Now if it reduced hospitalization even more for vaccinated people, then it really pushes down risk of serious disease for those vaccinated.

Vaccines are still more effective for reducing risk of hospitalization and death but these antivirals may be a boon for immunocompromised for whom vaccines have lower efficacy.