Philosophical Question: Calling people "Stupid" "Moron" etc.

[Amethyst]

The pandemic tedium is causing me to ponder stuff that never occurred to me in the past. Currently, I am hung up on a question that is difficult to phrase without sounding like I am trying to be funny. I am not. Here goes:

If it's not OK today (and never was) to make fun of people for being blind, Deaf, physically handicapped in some way, or mentally challenged such as having Down syndrome or autism,

Why is it still OK (apparently, since it is extremely common) to call people "stupid" or "moron"? To say things like, "You can't fix stupid"? "I'm surrounded by idiots," etc. Is this not mocking an intellectual disability?

Or is it just a figure of speech - that is, we think it really is possible to "fix stupid," and are blaming people for not trying? Ignorance can be fixed, but you rarely see someone using the word "ignorance." Nope, they say "stupid, dumb, moron, idiot" etc.

Just wondering.

 

[mountainsoft]

Well that's a stupid question... Actually, I've always believed there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers.

I would never call a person stupid, but see no problem stating an action is stupid. For example, "that's a stupid thing to do", or "that was a dumb move". It doesn't mean the person is lacking intelligence, just a momentary lapse of judgement.

It's not much different than asking "are you blind?" if a person can't see the point, or "are you deaf" if they don't hear something you said. Clearly you're not saying anything about their physical abilities.

On the other hand, we use to say "don't be a retard" when we were kids, which obviously isn't politically correct these days. I suppose "don't be an idiot" would be about the same.

Maybe verbs are OK ("that was stupid"), but nouns are not ("don't be stupid")?

 

[Amethyst]

I'm not talking about that, though. It is (I think) still OK to say that we are "rushing blindly into this" or "project is limping to the finish line." I'm talking about casually saying that certain people are stupid, stupid can't be fixed, moron/idiot (old terms for different levels of low IQ), and so on. Never mind the Internet - I have relatives who use these terms and phrases constantly. But they would never, ever make fun of, say, someone whom they've been told has autism.

If you think a person actually is intellectually defective ("stupid") and cannot be cured, should you be criticizing them at all? Since it's not their fault, any more than being in a wheelchair is someone's fault?

I would never call a person stupid, but see no problem stating an action is stupid. For example, "that's a stupid thing to do", or "that was a dumb move". It doesn't mean the person is lacking intelligence, just a momentary lapse of judgement.

?

 

[HI Bill]

Why is it still OK (apparently, since it is extremely common) to call people "stupid" or "moron"? To say things like, "You can't fix stupid"? "I'm surrounded by idiots," etc. Is this not mocking an intellectual disability?

Or is it just a figure of speech - that is, we think it really is possible to "fix stupid," and are blaming people for not trying?

Calling people stupid or moron implies that the person doing the calling thinks they are smarter than the one they are disparaging. The IQ test attempted to measure intelligence, and results generally formed a bell curve. Sometime before the 1980s, in California at least, most schools stopped giving IQ tests. People have different skills, abilities, and mental aptitudes. We are not all created equal, although the Declaration of Independence states this, but IMHO, really meant that we should have equal rights, not that we are all equally good at math, music, science, engineering, computer programming or sports.

All that said, I think most people who resort to calling others stupid or morons simply disagree with their point of view, but don't have any basis (rationale) to dispute the difference of opinion, and may be suffering from a feeling of inadequacy.

 

[W2R]

Amethyst, with the kindest of intentions, I'll gently tell you that I think you must be getting bored to death due to the pandemic to even think of this question!

Seriously, this is not an issue, at least IMO. Everyone knows that when you say some joker is an idiot, who is annoying you to an insane extent, that doesn't mean that you are literally putting down:
(1) the intellectually disabled if you call him an idiot, and
(2) comedians, if you call him a joker, and
(3) the mentally ill for using the word insane!

Normal people know that you just want to say he's extremely annoying. That's ALLOWED.

 

[Gumby]

To my mind, there is a vast difference between those who have intellectual disabilities and those whom I would deem "stupid by choice". There are many, many people who have IQ's well within the first standard deviation of the mean who, in essence, choose to be stupid. I'm talking about the people who reject education, expertise, logic and the very idea of objective fact. They are not intellectually disabled. Rather, they are blinded by political ideology or religion or just plain orneriness or, as some might deem it today, oppositional defiance disorder. These are the people who are deliberately and flagrantly stupid, and many appear to relish their status. They are fair game for criticism. The truly intellectually disabled are not.

 

[Amethyst]

OK, so you are in the "stupid could, in fact, be fixed" camp. I.E. It's an Idowanna, Youcan'tmakeme thing.

To my mind, there is a vast difference between those who have intellectual disabilities and those whom I would deem "stupid by choice". There are many, many people who have IQ's well within the first standard deviation of the mean who, in essence, choose to be stupid. I'm talking about the people who reject education, expertise, logic and the very idea of objective fact. They are not intellectually disabled. Rather, they are blinded by political ideology or religion or just plain orneriness or, as some might deem it today, oppositional defiance disorder. These are the people who are deliberately and flagrantly stupid, and many appear to relish their status. They are fair game for criticism. The truly intellectually disabled are not.

 

[6miths]

The terms idiot, imbecile and moron were all once commonly used in psychology in the early 20th century. Somewhat linked to the eugenics movement in the US (and elsewhere) at that time. AFAIK they have not been used for many, many years in clinical settings.

The glorification of ignorance and downplaying of expertise seem to be relatively recent and somewhat regional phenomena.

 

[Aerides]

It is (I think) still OK to say that we are "rushing blindly into this" or "project is limping to the finish line."

Well even those terms, I've seen people guiding away from those types of terms too. Much as we all now would recoil from using the R word, but 30 years ago never think anything of it. Language, and acceptable phrasing, evolves.

If you think a person actually is intellectually defective ("stupid") and cannot be cured, should you be criticizing them at all? Since it's not their fault, any more than being in a wheelchair is someone's fault?

I, for one, think that a vast majority of the time, stupid/idiot/twit/moron terms are used not because the person is suspected of being developmentally challenged, but making bad decisions/choices, deliberate ignorance. If someone were remotely possibly on the lower side of the IQ curve, to call them stupid would be very cruel.

 

[Gumby]

As someone who has been limping for the last 41 years, I would not object to using the term as a metaphor.

 

[Nemo2]

"This fellow's wise enough to play the fool, And to do that well craves a kind of wit."
—William Shakespeare

 

[Letj]

The culture in which I was raised, it is considered a grave insult to call somebody an idiot or stupid. People just didn’t do that unless they were deliberately trying to hurt your feelings. It’s never something I do and I am always taken aback when people throw around the terms moron, stupid and idiot to describe others.

 

[Dash man]

I just always prefer to not cast insults to anybody. I’m far from perfect and like everyone have said things I’ve regretted, but if I think before I speak, I try to never use a derogatory term. I have some relatives that can’t filter their words. I at least try to.

 

[SecondCor521]

I tend to be fairly literal and try to be precise in my use of language.

Amethyst, I don't think it's OK to use the language of that kind, even if it is more common today.

Where I do see an increase in that kind of language around me is (a) when people have a short temper, and (b) when people encounter people with strongly held beliefs that are quite opposite their own.

It seems many people have short tempers nowadays due to virus-related stresses such as job loss, constant change in daily living patterns, their children's education, etc. These stresses are on top of the ordinary daily stresses everyone has and have frequently exceeded people's abilities and resources to cope.

In the days before an election people around me are expressing their political beliefs more frequently and more openly. This gives rise to me encountering beliefs far different from my own more frequently.

In the former case, I try to be empathetic and extend grace. Most people are trying their best, or at least I try to think so. If the person respects me enough to listen, I might try to encourage them in some way.

In the latter case, I try to be respectful of their views and try to learn from them and understand where they are coming from. In very very very rare cases I might try to have a rational back-and-forth discussion so we can learn from each other.

 

[Gumby]

Let me offer an anecdote from the downhill side. Long ago, when I was a new lawyer at my big NYC law firm, I was assigned to work with a woman partner on a multi-billion dollar case. She had graduated from Yale Law School 20 years before me, at a time when it was very difficult for women to prosper, or even be accepted, at big law firms. They had to be smarter and tougher than the men to succeed. Based on my subsequent years at the firm, she was likely the smartest, toughest and best litigator at the firm. She was feared by the associates, as she did not suffer fools at all.

Fortunately, this woman took a shine to me and we worked well together. But I can't tell you how many times, when we were discussing what to do or write or argue, and I suggested a certain approach, she would scold me with "Don't be such a goyishe kopf" (which is Yiddish for, essentially, "Don't be such a dumb ass"). And, you know, she was mostly right. There was some aspect/angle that I had failed to consider or had misunderstood. Thanks to her criticism, I became a better lawyer.

That is why, today, I think we do people no favors by failing to call them on their BS. Everyone who can think, should think. Or they will never improve.

 

[easysurfer]

Baseball no longer has a disabled list. Only an injured list. (Well, actually this year, along with an injured list, a Covid-19 positive list).

When words get overused, their impact wears out and becomes part of common language. I remember growing up and hearing the word to describe when someone was peeved (also begins with a "p") was considered vulgar. Now, that's tossed around all the time.

 

[Amethyst]

That is interesting, that you cite a different culture (from American, I presume) for not throwing around those terms.

I'm more interested in any hypocrisy, than in the vulgarity of such insults. Insults are meant to hurt, that's universal. And sometimes, people flat-out deserve them. But we don't insult people (or shouldn't) for things they cannot help.

It just makes me wonder - at what point do people decide it's OK to accuse others of having low intelligence, and when do they decide "No, it's not OK, they're actually low on the scale"? I mean, it's not as if we can give people IQ tests on the street. (And as some have correctly observed, such tests aren't reliable anyway).

I knew this would get dicey, and I thank everyone for their insights and for bearing with me.

The culture in which I was raised, it is considered a grave insult to call somebody an idiot or stupid. People just didn’t do that unless they were deliberately trying to hurt your feelings. It’s never something I do and I am always taken aback when people throw around the terms moron, stupid and idiot to describe others.

 

[Amethyst]

Yes, you do, and you're kind too. And consistent - I've been reading your posts for years.

I tend to be fairly literal and try to be precise in my use of language.

.

 

[Lewis Clark]

To my mind, there is a vast difference between those who have intellectual disabilities and those whom I would deem "stupid by choice". There are many, many people who have IQ's well within the first standard deviation of the mean who, in essence, choose to be stupid.

I love the description "stupid by choice". Well said.

 

[target2019]

Why is it still OK (apparently, since it is extremely common) to call people "stupid" or "moron"? To say things like, "You can't fix stupid"? "I'm surrounded by idiots," etc. Is this not mocking an intellectual disability?

Words are not static and can have alternative meaning(s). I think this is difficult to accept. For example, I grew up in times when it was ok to say certain things. Search for The Three Stooges in combination with moron or stupid, for example. Some phrases were ever-present in the lives of kids growing up back in the day.

For better or worse, these words and many others are tagged by some as un-acceptable. In fact, if our society continues to accept the tagging, the words will continue to drop out of favor, and will become taboo. This is a bigly part of the cancel culture discussion, I suppose.

There was a powerful scene in the Lenny Bruce movie (with Dustin Hoffman as Bruce). I don't know if the scene accurately reflected the actual words of the comedian, but the script quotes him like this:

l was trying to make a point, that it's the suppression of the word that gives it the power, the violence, the viciousness.

 

[atmsmshr]

I wish that the views and decency expressed by forum members on this topic were more widely reflected in today's society.

 

[donheff]

I'm with Gumby on the pejorative use of "idiot" and "you can't fix stupid." They are used to disparage the willfully ignorant or just plain obnoxious. For a long time "moron" was used the same way but has gone out of favor because it is widely viewed as disparaging truly disabled people as suggested by the OP. A few insensitive people still intentionally choose to use "moron" despite the growing consensus that it is bad form - you can't fix stupid.

 

[Rianne]

When I was in grade school my uncle who I adored...wealthy, great sense of humor and very smart (up on latest news) told me my mom was "dumb like a fox" I love that.

 

[CRLLS]

An interesting thread. I can't remember the last time, or I ever used the term moron or idiot when talking to someone directly about their ability to comprehend. I wonder how we would answer when using derogatory terms in describing others. Such as, recounting an auto accident saying, "Then this moron pulled into into my lane and slammed on his brakes"

Does a term that had never been used in a clinical situation make any difference in our use or reaction to hearing it, such as "A$$ Hole"?

I will admit to recounting such situations afterwards using some or all of these terms.

 

[Midpack]

I don’t call anyone stupid-moron-idiot, I keep it to myself when confronted with stupid people. I don’t think it’s productive or acceptable anyway, though I see others who are quick to label others.

Never argue with a fool, onlookers might not be able to tell the difference.