Blood Pressure Medicines

[Elbata]

To M Paquette: When I pulled your quote and built my comment around it, I hesitated because I actually agreed with everything you said. I think you're very knowledgeable in this subject and I didn't mean at all to be picking on you.

I read this article and it turned my world upsidedown for the good: http://www.jeffnovick.com/RD/Articl..._About_Sodium_Intake_Levels_files/Jay CPE.pdf

BTW, FIL was in ICU 2 days ago. All the monitors are there to see what's happening to the vitals. His BP was 120/70 and when he started eating his systolic went to 160. That surprised me. I know he's old and he was in ICU, but if we could have monitors on us and see what happens to our bodies when we eat certain foods, it might make a difference in what we eat. Case in point: http://www.happyhealthylonglife.com...all-drs-esselstyn-ornish-vogel-rudel-did.html

 

[AllDone]

Always piqued when I read that quote. I would guess most are "salt sensitive" if 90% of the US population is eventually diagnosed with HBP. Wonder if it was a term invented by the salt institute.[/url]

A lot of young people have very efficient kidneys that handle excess salt really well while maintaining normal BP. Almost no "old" people have kidneys that perform the same trick. Salt sensitivity is a function of age as well as genetics. There is certainly an argument to be made from observational data that populations with higher salt intake throughout life ultimately have more hypertension. The analogy that I always use is smoking. You probably won't harm yourself smoking in your 20s, but if you keep it up into your 50s, there will be damage (but my paternal GPs smoked heavily, drank heavily and lived into their late 90s).

There is a strain of what I think of as "contrarian" medicine running through the alt-med world which I think is showing up in the new "salt is good" fad.

 

[Mulligan]

A lot of young people have very efficient kidneys that handle excess salt really well while maintaining normal BP. Almost no "old" people have kidneys that perform the same trick. Salt sensitivity is a function of age as well as genetics. There is certainly an argument to be made from observational data that populations with higher salt intake throughout life ultimately have more hypertension. The analogy that I always use is smoking. You probably won't harm yourself smoking in your 20s, but if you keep it up into your 50s, there will be damage (but my paternal GPs smoked heavily, drank heavily and lived into their late 90s).



There is a strain of what I think of as "contrarian" medicine running through the alt-med world which I think is showing up in the new "salt is good" fad.

I personally don't know if salt impacts everyone the same or not. It has had no impact on me yet at 50. In fact, I in years past, just assumed I consumed little salt as I never used a shaker. After studying the types of food I ate, I might as well been a horse licking a salt block all day. Ironically my salt intake is very little now after a recent dietary change. I didn't do it over salt concern, it was done for the fact those types of foods were preventing me from having a 30 year old looking nice flat stomach, as the 50 year old knees weren't going to run that extra few pounds off.

 

[W2R]

I personally don't know if salt impacts everyone the same or not. It has had no impact on me yet at 50.

It has never seemed to affect my BP either up to age 65. I eat at restaurants every day. I do not normally add salt to the restaurant food, which I suppose is fairly salty already, but on rare occasion I do add quite a lot. Still, my BP is rock solid now (on low dosage BP meds) and also extra salt did not seem to adversely affect my BP on a day to day basis without the meds when I was in my fifties.

 

[MRG]

Maybe the age thing explains my DF. Perfect BP, till his mid 80s. From there he was on multiple meds.

I cut down on processed food and salt, when mine went higher and was put on meds. Today I only will salt a nice steak. For me once I got used to it, food actually tastes better.

After I had eaten this way for couple of years, I tried soup and sandwich at some chain. I couldn't eat the soup, the waiter asked if there was something wrong with the soup. My response 'you mean that cup of sea water?'.
MRG

 

[Elbata]

By All done

There is certainly an argument to be made from observational data that populations with higher salt intake throughout life ultimately have more hypertension.

No doubt the evidence bears this out. Populations, especially populations from a generation ago that ate their native diet, HBP was rare.

Also you mentioning eating salt in 20s and OK, but HBP in 60s. Most diseases of Western Civ are no longer microbes, but what we do to ourselves on a regular basis. Heart disease, cancer, diabetes etc, don't happen to us overnight. The incubation period can be 40-50 years.

Even the Bogalusa heart study proves that heart disease begins in young people. http://tulane.edu/som/cardiohealth/

AllDone also says: "There is a strain of what I think of as "contrarian" medicine running through the alt-med world which I think is showing up in the new "salt is good" fad."

Agree also. How much of this misinformation is put out by the Salt Institute, just as the now defunct Tobacco Institute said smoking was not harmful to one's health.

Woops. I think I might be straying into medicine--perhaps I'll be removed. Sorry if that is so.

 

[Elbata]

'you mean that cup of sea water?

If one really follows the recommendation of the IOM (Institute of Medicine), that's 1500mg of sodium per day. Now mind you, this is the average amount they recommend. Less than 1 in 200 people in US eat (what is considered) that low of sodium intake.

If one were to eat that range of sodium, not only many restaurant soups, but most restaurant foods would feel like one is eating a salt shaker.

 

[M Paquette]

If one really follows the recommendation of the IOM (Institute of Medicine), that's 1500mg of sodium per day. Now mind you, this is the average amount they recommend. Less than 1 in 200 people in US eat (what is considered) that low of sodium intake.

If one were to eat that range of sodium, not only many restaurant soups, but most restaurant foods would feel like one is eating a salt shaker.

Yup. All the restaurant meals I had last weekend tasted very salty to me. Yes, even (especially!) the dessert. I've gotten used to soups and vegetables tasting sweet, I think. I certainly noticed the contrast when I got back on the low sodium diet this week.

Here's the evening readings for this week, with date, time, BP, pulse, and sodium intake.

== Dined out much of the weekend, no real access to sodium info. I’d bet I was over 1500 mg/day in spite of best efforts ==
17 Feb 1905 139/89 47
17 Feb 1910 133/87 47

18 Feb 2146 123/80 45
18 Feb 2150 117/76 44 751 mg sodium today

19 Feb 2110 119/74 52
19 Feb 2113 109/71 51 801 mg sodium today

20 Feb 2201 116/75 46
20 Feb 2210 122/78 46 929 mg sodium today

21 Feb 2117 112/71 45
21 Feb 2121 122/71 46 874 mg sodium today

22 Feb 1559 111/65 45
22 Feb 1607 113/74 44

There's a sort of trend in that data...

 

[Elbata]

Those are some great numbers. What influenced you to eat such a low sodium diet?

 

[M Paquette]

Those are some great numbers. What influenced you to eat such a low sodium diet?

Getting a whole bunch of numbers over 140/90.

That, and a personal goal to be the first male in four generations to live past 70...

 

[franco45]

Interesting discussion. And the reason we seldom eat out.

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Khan, just tell the doctor you read something about the risks of high blood pressure anad were wondering if you needed to be concerned. Patients can and should do that all the time.

 

[wrigley]

Forget the drugs. They ALL have side effects. All drugs are Damage control for people who don't want to make a life style change.

Not true. Sometimes, as my doctor puts it, it's sh^tty genes!

Mike

 

[franco45]

Mike , everyone is different and there may be a few unlucky soles that are genetically "screwed up". However my guess is that that Unlucky person is one in thousands. Doctors cant make a penny telling someone that they need to make a lifestyle change. However, prescribing drugs is very lucrative.
I went to a three day conference last year that focused on low carb diets. There were a number of doctors there. I talked a long time with one. He was a few years away from retirement, and had decided to spend his last years trying to prevent illness , rather than treating. He said that medical school taught little or nothing about nutrition. He had had several patients that he had "treated" for years for various ailments with no success. He had to take a hard look at his practice after several of his patients switched to doctors that focused on nutrition and were cured.

 

[wrigley]

Mike , everyone is different and there may be a few unlucky soles that are genetically "screwed up". However my guess is that that Unlucky person is one in thousands. Doctors cant make a penny telling someone that they need to make a lifestyle change. However, prescribing drugs is very lucrative.
I went to a three day conference last year that focused on low carb diets. There were a number of doctors there. I talked a long time with one. He was a few years away from retirement, and had decided to spend his last years trying to prevent illness , rather than treating. He said that medical school taught little or nothing about nutrition. He had had several patients that he had "treated" for years for various ailments with no success. He had to take a hard look at his practice after several of his patients switched to doctors that focused on nutrition and were cured.

I agree that MOST people would would be cured of their ailment(s) if they just showed some concern for their own well being. Although, there are cases where medication is the only answer.

Mike

 

[OAG]

+1 on HCTZ 25 mg. Been on it for 30 years. Gone through several Doctors and first to prescribe it was a USN Doctor and others just continue to prescribe it. However I have also stopped the bread, cakes & other carbohydrates and have lost 35 pounds over the past 9 months. My current BP can be low or high at times really a mystery why it does not stay low. After reading this thread I think I will try to eliminate the added SALT and see what that does (I do like the salt shaker).

 

[wrigley]

+1 on HCTZ 25 mg. Been on it for 30 years. Gone through several Doctors and first to prescribe it was a USN Doctor and others just continue to prescribe it. However I have also stopped the bread, cakes & other carbohydrates and have lost 35 pounds over the past 9 months. My current BP can be low or high at times really a mystery why it does not stay low. After reading this thread I think I will try to eliminate the added SALT and see what that does (I do like the salt shaker).

You retired the year after I came in!

I too see USN doctors. Have been for the past 36 years. I was put on BP medication last year for the first time. HCTZ 25 mg was the drug of choice by my doctor. 1 year later and a new doctor (Tricare issues) the new doctor takes me off of HCTZ 25 mg because he says...."it's very bad for your kidneys". Apparently it is doing right by by you for many years. I think it may be a new breed of USN Docs!

Mike

 

[AllDone]

I thought of another blood pressure tip. There have been several studies that compare coffee filtered through paper to coffee prepared without paper. Paper filtered coffee was significantly better. Paper filtered coffee also has less effect on LDL. If you're a coffee drinker, it might be worth a try.

Here are the Latest JNC hypertension regulations:

The JNC 8 Hypertension Guidelines: An In-Depth Guide | Page

 

[wrigley]

I thought of another blood pressure tip. There have been several studies that compare coffee filtered through paper to coffee prepared without paper. Paper filtered coffee was significantly better. Paper filtered coffee also has less effect on LDL. If you're a coffee drinker, it might be worth a try.

Here are the Latest JNC hypertension regulations:

The JNC 8 Hypertension Guidelines: An In-Depth Guide | Page

• In patients 18 to 59 years of age without major comorbidities, and in patients 60 years or older who have diabetes, chronic kidney disease (CKD), or both conditions, the new goal blood pressure level is <140/90 mm Hg.

My doctor wants me at 120/70. I dont think if I was dead my BP would be that low.

Mike

 

[AllDone]

The JNC8 Guidelines (not "regulations", sometimes my hands pay no attention to my brain) were just published last month and there are significant changes vs JNC-7. Target BP ranges are the big (and somewhat controversial) change, so your doctor must be following the guidelines from 5 weeks ago. Fortunately, they don't get changed more than every few years as more studies are done.

 

[Khufu]

My understanding is that only 20% of the population respond to salt reduction. When I had high blood pressure myself, reducing the level of salt in my diet did not affect BP readings. So, I stopped paying attention to it. Losing weight and exercise did the trick for me in controlling BP.

 

[M Paquette]

My understanding is that only 20% of the population respond to salt reduction. When I had high blood pressure myself, reducing the level of salt in my diet did not affect BP readings. So, I stopped paying attention to it. Losing weight and exercise did the trick for me in controlling BP.

It's always the last thing you try, isn't it?

I tried losing weight, exercise, and the DASH diet (without metering the sodium). Paying attention to the sodium is what worked for me.

Does this mean I can stop exercising and weight watching now?

 

[Khan]

Update

BP meds are working. No side effects noted yet.

 

[wrigley]

BP meds are working. No side effects noted yet.

If you don't mind me asking, what did they put you on?

Mike

 

[franco45]

I was on BP (Ramipril) since my HA 18 months ago. I was on the lowest dose and that was after I resisted since I don't have high
BP. I am so disgusted with the "rubber stamp" method all of the Cardiologist I have had use. If you investigate , the study they all reference is 20 years old. If you look at the study you will find that at the time , many in the health community, shot the study full of holes. The study claim that the pill reduced cardiac incidence by 30 % , in reality it reduced events by about 3%. As one reviewer determined , you would have to treat 75 people for 4 1/2 years to prevent one event. Its all about the money.