Hi, I've got fired today by megacorp...Looking for help...

[pb4uski]

The ethics question is interesting... were either the company or its clients harmed by what you did? From what you write it would not seem so.... the only parties arguably harmed were those who offered the bonuses in the hope that you would become a long term customer but I don't see how that is relevant to your employment.

See a lawyer... you may have a good case for wrongful discharge... sounds like the CEO was looking to make some examples.

 

[fired_need_help]

There are agencies that specialize in these jobs. I've got a friend who's been doing temporary gigs for years. It's not optimal- sometimes he goes a few months without anything turning up and most of the time he's working far away from his home town (wife in Phoenix and right now he's in Chicago at least through the end of the year) but he's happy with the money he's making although I have no idea how much that is. He's an IT guy with expertise in the software used in the aircraft industry- so specialized that no company would bother advertising because they'd get too many responses from people "willing to learn".

Thanks! Interesting idea.
I have not thought yet about using agencies that specialize in temp. gigs.

 

[fired_need_help]

The ethics question is interesting... were either the company or its clients harmed by what you did?

100% not.
My direct supervisor wrote to me yesterday that he was shocked by corporate decision and offered himself as a reference in my future job search.

 

[pb4uski]

And none of the spending on these bonus cards was put through on an expense report for reimbursement? If the CC charges were put through an expense report then I can see the conflict of interest, but not necessarily unethical behavior that justifies firing/forced resignation.

If so, then they pressured you to resign because you chose to take advantage of bonuses in your personal finances If so, that is very odd... see a lawyer ASAP.

 

[fired_need_help]

And none of the spending on these bonus cards was put through on an expense report for reimbursement?

Of course not. I did not have a business trip in several years. I don't even remember when I was on a business trip last time.

If so, then they pressured you to resign because you chose to take advantage of bonuses in your personal finances If so, that is very odd... see a lawyer ASAP.

Not sure. They did pressure me to resign, saying that otherwise, they'd fire me for cause ("ethics violations") and they said that resigning looks better for me.

 

[sturbridge]

Our expenses never had any correlation with the earnings, so whatever was the salary had nothing to do with the actual expenses.
Regarding expenses:
- last time we've been to a restaurant (not counting several business launches / year at work)? Never. Wife cooks.
- Cable bill? None.
- Cell phone bill? Currently None, since bought 3 Tracfones on ebay for $54 each with annual plan couple months ago.
- We do pay for the Internet (~50-55/month).
- Electricity is $70...$120 (summer or winter)
- Natural Gas bill $6 (summer) ... $150+ (winter)
- water bill ~$45
- Real estate taxes - ~$1100. Home insurance ~$1000. Car insurances - ~$230 / 6 month.
- No other recurring expenses, except kids activities (unfortunately, expenses for kids activities are going up.).

You don't eat, drive a car anywhere or wear clothes?

 

[Texas Proud]

+1

Sounds like a possible "constructive discharge" situation and worth consulting an attorney with labor law expertise.

But Texas is an at will state and they can fire you for no reason at all... as long as it does not break federal employment laws...

 

[Earl E Retyre]

... I've had continuous employment since age ~21 till today. S/w development... C++ / Scripting / GUI / etc. Latest salary was ~140k.

... We were planning vacations to Europe in early Oct. (Fall Break in schools) for a week and all reservations are already non-refundable and has been paid for (food and attractions are the only expenses that are left).

... My direct supervisor wrote to me yesterday that he was shocked by corporate decision and offered himself as a reference in my future job search.

Since you were making $140k as a software developer, you must be pretty good. There is a high demand for software developers and I suspect if you post your resume on LinkedIn and job boards that you would get lots of bites.

Why not take your vacation - it is next month after all and you have not had a break in over 20 years. It is not unreasonable to take 1+ months to correspond and interview with different companies, make a decision and start. So, while you are in the process of doing all that, enjoy your time off and try and relax.

It is best to be honest when answering job interview questions and a good interviewer will read through any BS and emotional responses. So, you are going to have to figure out the best way to answer the question as to why you resigned. Perhaps you can tell them you resigned for a number of reasons. One being a much needed time off with the family (thus your Europe vacation and taking 1+ month off). But I have no idea how you say that the other reason is due to what you did that was wrong. If you were willing to break company rules at one company it is a red flag that you would break them at the next company. And they would likely not hire you. So, you need to think about that response. Also, you mentioned that your direct supervisor is willing to be a reference. If he is willing to write you a written letter of recommendation then that would likely help. I suspect, however, that he would not be willing to write one. Perhaps he would be willing to write a positive blurb on your LinkedIn profile.

 

[someguy]

You are right. Freelance would be great.
Unfortunately, I am an introvert and not good at networking. Will need to learn that skill.

I would post on your LinkedIn profile that you're going independent and looking to pick up a few more gigs. I would also reach out (even an email if calling/lunch is hard for you) to anyone you know (former co-workers, friends, neighbors, etc.) with a similar message.

Also, might be worth seeing if you could form a company (LLC, whatever) and consult back via your old boss. Most megacorps have piles of contractors around in IT and if your old boss truly thinks you did nothing wrong, it could be a way to kick start being on your own.

 

[MRG]

As far as why you were asked to resign, many companies won't give much if any detail. The Megacorp I worked for would only give start and end dates and no reason for termination.

I know you heard resigned, technically true. They may not say. It's not too hard to explain it off as boredom, family needs...

Good luck.

 

[cathy63]

Some of the dots in this story are not connecting for me. Rather than the spending, I am guessing the problem was more about the international trips and where they were to and whether they were all properly reported to your security officer and approved prior to travel. With the info you gave, that's the only scenario I can think of where the government would proactively contact your employer. They don't have any way to know about your credit card usage and spending patterns unless it comes up in the course of an investigation for some other reason; and even if it does, you can read the CFR on adjudicating clearances and see that they only care about delinquent debt, recent bankruptcies and unexplained affluence, and based on your numbers none of that applies to you. Also, if they deny, suspend or revoke a clearance, they don't tell your employer the reason. They just inform the employer that you are no longer allowed to work on the contract for which your clearance was granted. (I have been on the employer side of this, so I know that's how it works. I don't know if they might provide more information if there are potential criminal charges or if the entire contract is at risk, as our situation didn't go that far, but if that were the case then your employer was well within their rights to fire you.)

Nevertheless, no matter why you were let go, what's done is done and you need to move forward. I would not waste your time contacting employment lawyers to see if you were wrongfully discharged. Your employer is allowed to fire you for any reason other than your membership in a protected class or for no reason at all. Unless they've also fired a lot of others who are over 40, you are not going to win a case of age discrimination. You won't get to argue with them about whether or not you behaved unethically, only whether or not your age was really the primary reason for the termination, and that is practically impossible to prove. It just sucks up energy and time that would be better spent on finding a new job.

As for what to do now, start today on putting together your resume and asking other coworkers and former managers to act as references. The blog askamanager.org is an excellent resource for resume and interviewing advice, and I recommend it highly. If you'll have internet access while you're overseas, then go ahead and start applying for new positions before you leave. It can take several months to find a new job, so best to get started as soon as possible. If you get contacted while you're on vacation, you can just explain that you're out of town but would love to schedule an interview for when you get back on x date.

I think you should probably concentrate on applying at employers who don't work on government projects, but if you're in an area where that's your only option, then make sure to put on your resume that you have a clearance. It can be reactivated for up to 2 years.

Also, you should immediately apply for unemployment. In many states, resigning to avoid getting fired does not disqualify you. Getting fired for cause is disqualifying, but I'm not sure they have real cause here. It's also possible that your former employer may not challenge the claim or might forget to fill in the paperwork in a timely manner. Anyway, there's nothing to lose by trying, so go ahead and apply.

 

[mystang52]

I think OP chose the right course to resign. Nowadays, unless there's inside knowledge a prospective employer will not find out the true reason for the resignation.
That being the case, I suggest the OP come up with a viable explanation for his resignation, one that cannot be disproven [ maybe, as another poster mention, simply cite family obligations. Of course, that then begs the question of Family Leave].
In any event, if the OP has the skills a prospective employer is looking for, odds are at least reasonable that they will accept almost any response that seems plausible.

 

[mystang52]

deleted double post

 

[pb4uski]

....I would not waste your time contacting employment lawyers to see if you were wrongfully discharged. Your employer is allowed to fire you for any reason other than your membership in a protected class or for no reason at all. ...

You may be right given OP is from an "at will" state... OTOH, an initial consultation has no cost other than time, which the OP now has... some Megas wilt and settle at the first hint of a lawsuit and others fight tooth and nail.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

The last megacorp I worked for wouldn't even say if someone resigned or not. They would just give the dates of employment, because they did not want to get sued. I would contact an employment attorney to see if you have a case. It sounds like your former employer was more concerned with their best interests of not having to cover unemployment benefits. My last employer would settle every case out of court even when the employee was clearly at fault just to avoid a jury trial, which they thought was rolling the dice with a potential judgement in the millions of dollars.

There are quite a few stories on the deal forums of people into manufactured spending who buy thousands of dollar in gift cards every week from the same stores and get investigated for money laundering, even though they are not laundering money and just doing it for the cash back on the credit cards. $100K in gift cards @ 2% cash back = $2K in tax free money.

 

[gayl]

I'd still go on the Vaca but I'd also figure out:

1. EXACTLY what it cost to live each month. Sounds like it might be a little more complicated on your case, but you need to know

2. What monthly income from dividends will be as you don't get unemployment from a resignation, no more 'freebies'

3. Work thru EXPERIENCE UNLIMITED or PROF or 40+ (groups that assist laid off execs / professionals) on how to phrase your rapid exit

Without knowing where you stand, how can you decide a next step?

 

[Sojourner]

You don't eat, drive a car anywhere or wear clothes?

+1

It seems to me that the OP has done only a "back of the envelope" analysis of his family's budget, instead of the fully loaded FIRE-type budget that includes large, occasional and/or unexpected expenses. For example, gifts, vacations, car replacement, home improvements and repairs (new roof, appliances, furniture, etc.), auto maintenance and fuel, groceries, medical and dental insurance and co-pays, and numerous other categories, e.g. entertainment, new clothes, kids activities and school costs, etc.

I would be very surprised if all of this added up to only $25k per year. I'm a single guy with no kids and my annual FIRE budget is around $55k, so it strains credibility to think a family of four could live very comfortably on less than half of what I'm budgeting just for myself... especially when they've had a $100k+ income in recent years.

 

[ivinsfan]

Sorry, I intentionally was not 100% clear on the reason (who would want to disclose that? ) in the open post in order for that info not to be traceable.
I've opened CCs to get travel bonuses and did MS (manufactured spending, everything pretty much from the front page of flyertalk MS forum) + international family vacations have triggered red flags for government, since I've had clearance. Government notified the company and I've had a meeting with government & company several months ago about this issue. I've promised to stop MS and did stop it. As far as I know government has decided that they don't have an issue with me and I continue to have a clearance. But company has decided that my behavior was unethical and asked me to resign.
None of that had anything to do with my job performance and it is anybody's guess why this is unethical.

Did you not comply with pre-clearance rules for these international trips? They can be very strict, especially if you have a top secret..Was the MS on cards used for business travel purposes. If you've endangered your government clearance for some MS for free travel, at the very least you've shown poor judgement that won't bode well for another job.

 

[CaliforniaMan]

It strains credibility that you didn't think that manufactured spending and essentially fraud is unethical. I know I would never hire anyone who I knew did this kind of thing. I would always wonder what else they are going to do or have done. I would not want anyone around who I always had to wonder about or had to keep checking on. Just because you saw it on the internet, and someone said it was legal and you can make a few bucks, does not mean you should do it. You now have found that this enterprise has cost you more than you gained. One has to decide what kind of person they want to be, you made a wrong choice, first you need to be honest with yourself and admit that.

But that was the past, now you need to get on with the future.

There are a lot of good suggestions on this thread of what you should do next, and I don't want to repeat them here. I don't think you need to tell your next prospective employer the exact reason for your termination, but if it does come up, be honest. Say you made a big stupid mistake, that you are not that kind of person, and that you will never do that kind of thing again.

 

[timemoveson]

It strains credibility that you didn't think that manufactured spending and essentially fraud is unethical. I know I would never hire anyone who I knew did this kind of thing. I would always wonder what else they are going to do or have done. I would not want anyone around who I always had to wonder about or had to keep checking on. Just because you saw it on the internet, and someone said it was legal and you can make a few bucks, does not mean you should do it. You now have found that this enterprise has cost you more than you gained. One has to decide what kind of person they want to be, you made a wrong choice, first you need to be honest with yourself and admit that.

But that was the past, now you need to get on with the future.

There are a lot of good suggestions on this thread of what you should do next, and I don't want to repeat them here. I don't think you need to tell your next prospective employer the exact reason for your termination, but if it does come up, be honest. Say you made a big stupid mistake, that you are not that kind of person, and that you will never do that kind of thing again.

++1

 

[ivinsfan]

It strains credibility that you didn't think that manufactured spending and essentially fraud is unethical. I know I would never hire anyone who I knew did this kind of thing. I would always wonder what else they are going to do or have done. I would not want anyone around who I always had to wonder about or had to keep checking on. Just because you saw it on the internet, and someone said it was legal and you can make a few bucks, does not mean you should do it. You now have found that this enterprise has cost you more than you gained. One has to decide what kind of person they want to be, you made a wrong choice, first you need to be honest with yourself and admit that.

But that was the past, now you need to get on with the future.

There are a lot of good suggestions on this thread of what you should do next, and I don't want to repeat them here. I don't think you need to tell your next prospective employer the exact reason for your termination, but if it does come up, be honest. Say you made a big stupid mistake, that you are not that kind of person, and that you will never do that kind of thing again.

Manufactured spend is "unethical"... come again..You'd be suspicious about someone that did this why? You pay for everything you buy , you buy grocery store gifts cards at a store that has a bonus point offer and then use them at the grocery store. As long as the OP is paying the bills and CC company doesn't have a problem with it, Calling MS " a big stupid mistake" is over the top. I'm inclined to think its improper security clearances that are a bigger issue.

Maybe the new boss wants to clean house and is looking under every rock to get rid of people on the cheap.

 

[pb4uski]

+1 From what I have read on manufactured spending (never heard of it until today) I could not call it fraudulent or even unethical.... strange or shady perhaps, but nothing more than that.

Fraud is generally defined as the intentional misrepresentation of material existing fact made by one person to another with knowledge of its falsity and for the purpose of inducing the other person to act, and upon which the other person relies with resulting injury or damage.

Even if someone takes advantage of a bonus/rewards offer, finds some way to convert the item purchased to cash and pockets the bonus/reward it is not in any way fradulent... the buyer is making no committment or representation to the seller. While the seller may be offering the reward in the hope of repeat business, brand loyalty or whatever, the buyer is not making any committment to the buyer.

 

[fh2000]

You pay for everything you buy , you buy grocery store gifts cards at a store that has a bonus point offer and then use them at the grocery store. As long as the OP is paying the bills and CC company doesn't have a problem with it, Calling MS " a big stupid mistake" is over the top. I'm inclined to think its improper security clearances that are a bigger issue.

Your method described above is normal spend, not really MS. True MS people will receive credits but not really spend any money at the end of the transaction. This, to me, is really questionable.

There is a whole 'underground' community of MS people to game the system, maybe that is what OP did.

See this guy's incidence with police: https://travelcodex.com/i-was-detained-for-manufactured-spending/

 

[Walt34]

Even if someone takes advantage of a bonus/rewards offer, finds some way to convert the item purchased to cash and pockets the bonus/reward it is not in any way fraudulent... the buyer is making no commitment or representation to the seller. While the seller may be offering the reward in the hope of repeat business, brand loyalty or whatever, the buyer is not making any commitment to the buyer.

Like you I'd never heard of manufactured spending until today either and had to look it up. While I agree that there is no legal fraud involved (i.e., no one was illegally deprived of their property) I can see where the practice would strike some as unethical in that someone is (apparently) using the company's credit cards to obtain a gain for themselves.

Ethics is often a very fine line and in a large community there is often a lot of gray area between what is right and what is wrong. Evidently he did not cross his own line, but did cross someone else's.

Be that as it may, rightly or wrongly the OP is without job and he needs to focus on moving forward from this point on. Fortunately he has the resources to not have to move into panic mode and take the first offer that comes down the pike.

 

[ivinsfan]

Your method described above is normal spend, not really MS. True MS people will receive credits but not really spend any money at the end of the transaction. This, to me, is really questionable.

There is a whole 'underground' community of MS people to game the system, maybe that is what OP did.

See this guy's incidence with police: https://travelcodex.com/i-was-detained-for-manufactured-spending/

I don't do this so I don't have a dog in the fight, so you use your CC to buy Walmart gift cards at face value..Then you use the gift cards to buy a money order which apparently is OK with Walmart. All the CC company knows is that you spent money at Wal-mart...what you do with those cards is your business..I'm not agreeing this is "questionable"..in fact who loses from it. You might say Wal-mart since you didn't buy anything from them..but WalMart sets the rules for the use of gift cards.Wal-mart does get a fee for doing the money order.