Genworth LTC strikes again

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What was it about Nords story that lead you to believe it was "orchestrated obfuscation" instead of his mishandling of the claim?
./.
P.S. are you under the impression that Nords does not benefit from the advice he gives?
An ad hominem on Nords instead of a response to the first hand experience he presented here? Take it some place else. The events he related reek of credibility.

Regarding his book, since you ask, I’m happy to respond.

Nords helped build this forum and made thousands of helpful posts giving good advice on retirement related topics to countless members and guests. He also helped moderate for years. After all that, he approached forum staff, announced his desire to blog and write a book, and asked permission to draw from the forum for this. Given his previous contribution, it was an easy choice to agree to this initiative.

So, yes, he’s earned the right to reference and link his blog and book, and is free to talk about it here.

FYI, Nords also donates all the proceeds from blog and book to military related charities, My guess is other members meeting those same standards would be given the same respect, and treatment.

On the other hand, people that use this community just to advance their own business interests are free to look elsewhere for greener pastures. Our community rules are quite clear and specific regarding mining forum membership. They can be found via link at the bottom of the page.
 
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Made it impossible for me to file a claim. They would ask for stuff and I would send it. They said that was the wrong stuff, send some other stuff. I got more stuff from the doctors and the nursing home and sent that in. Back and forth. Calls on the tele, lots of calls. Finally they cancelled the claim.

It was like talking to a brick.

That's why I don't handle my own medical insurance claims. My doctor's office handles them. They have experience doing it, I don't.

That's also why I didn't handle my MIL's long-term care insurance claim. We let the home care agency file the claim. They got it approved in three weeks. They have experience processing long-term care insurance claims, I don't.
 
1. I'm not off the hook anyway- most policies cover only for a finite number of years and any excess cost over the face amount of the policy, even in the years I'm covered, is on me.
2. Anecdotal evidence exists to show that when I actually need the coverage, my family and I might have to fight tooth and nail to get it.
3. The premiums could go up or the coverage could be reduced. Certainly now that companies have more extensive LTC experience data they can price it better, but they're still pricing for things that could happen 20-30 years down the road. There will be errors and it will likely be underpriced, not overpriced.
4. If I don't go into LTC and, like my dear mother or my dear husband, die quietly at home in hospice care of untreatable cancer, the LTC company wins.
5. Worst case- I don't buy insurance, I get Alzheimer's like my Uncle, and all my assets go to pay for quality LTC. That's a risk I'm willing to take. My son, my only heir, agrees.

Thank you, Athena53. You brought up some important concerns.

1. Fortunately, 44 states have Long-Term Care Partnership Programs that can protect your assets even if your long-term care policy runs out of benefits. For every dollar a Long-Term Care Partnership policy pays in benefits a dollar of assets can be protected from Medicaid spend-down requirements and Medicaid estate recovery. In other words, if someone bought a Long-Term Care Partnership policy with $750,000 of benefits and exhausted the policy, they could apply for Medicaid and they could keep $750,000 of savings. (Normally Medicaid requires you spend your savings down to about $2,000).

2. This year about 300,000 long-term care insurance policyholders will have their claims paid. To be frank, I was surprised when my mother-in-law's claim was approved in only three weeks. But, that's why I didn't handle the claim. I knew that there were home care agencies who process hundreds/thousands of claims every year. I'm glad we had the agency handle it for us.

3. Fortunately, 41 states have passed new regulations that have removed the profit incentive from rate increases. Under the new rules, if an insurance company requests a rate increase they must decrease the profit levels in their pricing and they canNOT price any profit in the increase itself. This hasn't stopped all rate increases, but it has resulted in fewer and smaller rate increases in most states. Why is this regulation working? Because no insurance company likes to reduce profits. The reg hit 'em where it hurts the most: PROFITS.
3a. LTCi policies purchased before these new rules took effect are NOT covered by these new rules.
3b. As Nords pointed out, the FLTCIP and other self-funded groups (like CalPERS) do NOT comply with these new rules.

4. I'm not sure how to respond to this particular statement. At the end of last year, after spending over $15,000 on medical insurance premiums for my family, I was not disappointed that the "insurance company won" because we didn't require major surgery. I was pretty happy that none of us needed to use the insurance.

5. This one makes about as much sense as #4. Why would someone want to risk hundreds of thousands of dollars? Doesn't it make sense to hedge against risk? Couldn't your grandchildren benefit from inheriting your money? If spending a few hundred a month for an insurance policy is detestable, how comfortable will it be to write out checks for ten thousand plus every month to a home care agency or memory care facility?
 
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That's why I don't handle my own medical insurance claims. My doctor's office handles them. They have experience doing it, I don't.

That's also why I didn't handle my MIL's long-term care insurance claim. We let the home care agency file the claim. They got it approved in three weeks. They have experience processing long-term care insurance claims, I don't.

Genworth made it clear that they don't pay the nursing home, they pay me, so I have to do it. Why would the doctor waste his time for no pay? Doesn't he have better things to do than talking to a brick?

Same for the nursing home. I pay them, not Genworth. Genworth pays me. And they even told me that Genworth was the worst.

Have fun with your insurance business - :)
 
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An ad hominem on Nords instead of a response to the first hand experience he presented here? Take it some place else. The events he related reek of credibility.


I read Nords' LTCi claims experience years ago, when he first posted it. I have never doubted his sincerity nor his credibility.

All I'm saying is that mishandling of a long-term care insurance claim by the policyholder's representative looks exactly the same as insurer obfuscation.

I can see the difference because I have the knowledge. If you want me to go over each of his points, I'll do it, but it'll be pretty boring.
 
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Genworth made it clear that they don't pay the nursing home, they pay me, so I have to do it. Why would the doctor waste his time for no pay? Doesn't he have better things to do than talking to a brick?

Same for the nursing home. I pay them, not Genworth. Genworth pays me. And they even told me that Genworth was the worst.

Have fun with your insurance business - :)



Genworth incurs over $1.5 Billion of LTC insurance claims every year. (The claims data is collected by the NAIC every year and made public.)

Somehow, every year, about 15,000 people figure out how to file, and get paid on, their Genworth long-term care insurance claim.
 
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[Banned LTC Salesman], you haven’t answered my question regarding your assertion that as long as one can buy a policy with premiums of less than one half of one percent of net worth, one should do so. Why? What is the basis for this formula? If someone can afford to self-insure, why shouldn’t they?
 
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Scuba, although I do not have any experience with long term care, or filing LTC claims, I can think of at least one collateral benefit of having a LTC policy. That is, access to the company's networks and referrals. Should I get into that position - like Athena, I am single (divorced, not widowed) - I'll be in a pickle if I have not previously researched and gone to visit assisted living, SNF or memory care facilities in my state. If I have not done the research, my placement will be determined by the law of "easiest and quickest" after a precipitating event when there is no time to fine-tune actions.

(**note to self: get on that right away!**)

I believe I need the knowledge and empirical resources lurking somewhere inside the insurance company. Data analysis about facilities. I don't count on my children being able to do in-depth research in real time, while under pressure.

My most sensible child is in California, in a skilled trades apprenticeship which leaves no time or bandwidth for anything else. My high strung child is a nervous wreck, with two pre-school children, a tough job, a big house, and a demanding husband. My youngest child does not yet have the sense that God gives gave a rock, although I do have hopes.

Shifting Mom over into in-home care, assisted living or memory care has got to be so easy that all they have to do is to read the ten-step instruction placard I will (at that point) be wearing around my neck, lol!

I'm thinking THAT is the benefit of access to the resources of a large organization with operations in your state of residence. An insurance company MUST have advisory personnel, experience with the facilities in the state, advice - every large organization is simply swimming with staff who analyze patterns of outcomes in their areas of operations.

Maybe I'm wrong.
 
Why should it ever be a surprise that insurance companies (any type of insurance) will try to weasel out of paying claims? It's the very nature of their business model - collect as much in premiums as possible and pay as little in claims as possible. If they can make the claim process difficult, confusing and slow, at least some people will give up.
 
I agree with posters that any LTC claim is like a labyrinth, but any legit company has a fiduciary obligation to paying legitimate claims. The major issue is it produces so much anxiety for the insured and their family. The state commissioner of insurance is where these companies answer to--they usually have some sort of ombudsman to help out confused claimants. Unfortunately it is still a maze at the most vulnerable time for people. I recently had to handle things for my folks and just the regular insurance was bad enough. My sympathies to all going through it now.


Has anyone considered using an HSA as an LTC substitute? That is, maxing out HSA contributions (about 7K a year for a couple) and not spending until you reach nursing home-style expenses? A quick spreadsheet calculation assuming 7% returns and $7000 annual contributions starting at age 50 and stopping at age 65 returns 195K at age 65, 384K at age 75 and 538K at age 80.


The downside of course is if you get sick early you have less coverage. The huge upside is no claims process--you decide when to write the checks. And it is still part of your estate in case you do not need it later on. If I'm missing something please let me know.
 
Thanks, Hermit, for the heads up, but there are TOS that must be complied with. I will not violate the TOS.
I very seriously doubt there's any place where it's a violation to disclose one's affiliation, but no issues with concealing it. You're not fooling anyone.
 
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[Banned LTC Salesman], you haven’t answered my question regarding your assertion that as long as one can buy a policy with premiums of less than one half of one percent of net worth, one should do so. Why? What is the basis for this formula? If someone can afford to self-insure, why shouldn’t they?
Since I am up at 6am smoking ribs for a party today thought I'd noodle this once again....First need more coffee.....

I think it's a personal/emotional choice first and financial second for those that can easily afford to "pay out of pocket" vs purchase insurance.

This personal choice could also be applied to other insurance products like home owners insurance. I own my home but I still have insurance. Given Home Insurance is cheaper than LTCi I believe, however not sure the comparison in likely event of having to rebuild a home vs ending up in 3+ years of LTC.

Back of envelope calculations (Just an educated guess, take it for what its worth):

LTC could cost in 30 years $110,000 per year per person (based on genworth website costs in 30 years for my area, I think they use 3% inflation in healthcare cost which I think is low) for assisted living or home health services, and over $240,000 per year for nursing home.

This means in order to pay out of pocket for 1 person spending 2 years in assisted living and 1 year in nursing home $480,000 (appx $150000 put in a 4% compound growth for 30 years, $300,000 for 2 people).

For someone staying 4 years in a nursing $1,000,000 ($2,000,000 for a couple, unlikely but possible) 30 to 34 years from today ($240,000 x 6)x1.04 inflation adjustment) todays dollars in an account/investment yielding 4% for 30 years. So for out of pocket would need to set aside (to have accounts worth $2,000,000 in 30 years) $650,000 today growing at 4% compounding for 30 years to have available $2,000,000 in 30 years.
 
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Fortunately, 44 states have Long-Term Care Partnership Programs that can protect your assets even if your long-term care policy runs out of benefits. For every dollar a Long-Term Care Partnership policy pays in benefits a dollar of assets can be protected from Medicaid spend-down requirements and Medicaid estate recovery.

I'm not planning on Medicaid EVER picking up any of my LTC costs. No way, nohow, not even as a last resort. I know there are Medicaid beds in decent nursing homes and they do that so they can also get the more lucrative MediCARE rehab patients, but I am concerned about the ageing population and the number of people who don't have adequate retirement savings who are planning on Medicaid for LTC. As the states get crippled by the increasing Medicaid costs I suspect reimbursements will go down, the number of places that take Medicaid will decrease and care will suffer in the ones that do.

I do think these plans are a very good idea, but if the LTC insurer becomes insolvent and can't pay your claim, does the state STILL protect your assets from Medicaid to the extent you had coverage? This is a serious question- you're choosing an insurer and hoping it will be around in 20-30 years. Who takes that risk?

4. I'm not sure how to respond to this particular statement. At the end of last year, after spending over $15,000 on medical insurance premiums for my family, I was not disappointed that the "insurance company won" because we didn't require major surgery. I was pretty happy that none of us needed to use the insurance.
Been there, done that- paid for my own coverage under ACA in the 4 years between retirement and Medicare. In a sense, yes, they did win. I never had anything more serious than poison ivy, thank God. I bought insurance because potentially huge amounts were at stake, bigger than LTC costs- pretty easy to run through $1 million with a case of cancer. I'm also "only" 65. I'm not in spend-down mode. In LTC at the end of my life, if most of my assets go to LTC that's OK- I won't need them wherever I'm going.

Doesn't it make sense to hedge against risk? Couldn't your grandchildren benefit from inheriting your money? If spending a few hundred a month for an insurance policy is detestable, how comfortable will it be to write out checks for ten thousand plus every month to a home care agency or memory care facility?

I'm saving to pay for my grandkids' education. That's what my parents gave the 5 of us. Mom is deceased, Dad is 87 and in Independent Living and has about $600K left. Whatever he leaves will be split 5 ways so I'm not buying a Porsche in anticipation. We're all doing very well. I would like DS and DDIL's retirement to be more comfortable if I can leave them something but DS has said, "I don't want your money" and I believe him. (I did pay for his college education.)

And no, it's not detestable to pay for LTC out of my own pocket any more than it's detestable to pay for my mortgage or a root canal. It's a service. If I need it I'll fund it and I won't have to go hunting for a place that accepts Medicaid, either from Day One or after a few years of self-pay.

I've found aspects of this discussion extremely useful- they have made me think and I hope it's been as useful to others- but I haven't changed my mind!

I guess risk-taking runs in the family; my parents got tired of the extremely high costs of windstorm coverage when they had a small, paid-for house in Myrtle Beach. They dropped windstorm coverage and said that the land was worth more than the house anyway. Dad sold it last year after Mom died. It's still standing. All of us understood the risk they were taking and supported it.
 
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What do you mean by "reserve-priced"? Never heard that term before.

I hadn't heard that term either and I worked in the industry for 20+ years.... but from what he describes it is no different than other permanent insurance pricing.... very similar to permanent/whole life insurance pricing because the concept is the same... you collect premiums for a very long time that effectively pre-fund claims that are by their nature back ended.
 
Since I am up at 6am smoking ribs for a party today thought I'd noodle this once again....First need more coffee.....

I think it's a personal/emotional choice first and financial second for those that can easily afford to "pay out of pocket" vs purchase insurance.

This personal choice could also be applied to other insurance products like home owners insurance. I own my home but I still have insurance. Given Home Insurance is cheaper than LTCi I believe, however not sure the comparison in likely event of having to rebuild a home vs ending up in 3+ years of LTC.

Back of envelope calculations (Just an educated guess, take it for what its worth):

LTC could cost in 30 years $110,000 per year per person (based on genworth website costs in 30 years for my area, I think they use 3% inflation in healthcare cost which I think is low) for assisted living or home health services, and over $240,000 per year for nursing home.

This means in order to pay out of pocket for 1 person spending 2 years in assisted living and 1 year in nursing home $480,000 (appx $150000 put in a 4% compound growth for 30 years, $300,000 for 2 people).

For someone staying 4 years in a nursing $1,000,000 ($2,000,000 for a couple, unlikely but possible) 30 to 34 years from today ($240,000 x 6)x1.04 inflation adjustment) todays dollars in an account/investment yielding 4% for 30 years. So for out of pocket would need to set aside (to have accounts worth $2,000,000 in 30 years) $650,000 today growing at 4% compounding for 30 years to have available $2,000,000 in 30 years.

When doing projections, people also need to subtract their normal living expenses from these numbers. Thirty years from now, if a nursing home is $20,000 a month, someone doing a projection should realize they have their social security and other pension income etc. to pay for this. So for someone planning to live on $15,000 /month in good health, that would take care of 75% of those big numbers. Not really too bad.

[$15,000/month 30 years from now is $5000/month today at 4% inflation.]

I say this because after handling a 3 year nursing home stay for a parent a few years ago, I realized they could cover about half with their normal pension and social security. Their house was paid for so that took care of most of the rest. It was a big shock to me because I thought it would be a financial disaster--not really at all. Expensive yes, and a liquidity issue due to their lack of planning, but not a disaster.

And keep in mind most LTC are not LTC, they are for a fixed payout. So you can't find a policy to pay for the 20 year LTC dementia patient nightmare scenario (at a reasonable price). If anyone knows of one please share! :)
 
When doing projections, people also need to subtract their normal living expenses from these numbers.

That's exactly my reasoning. Other than OOP medical, dental, hearing aids, vision care and some necessary personal care such as haircuts, my other expenses go away in LTC. No more long-hauls to Europe in Business Class or kayaking off the coast of Costa Rica.

And keep in mind most LTC are not LTC, they are for a fixed payout. So you can't find a policy to pay for the 20 year LTC dementia patient nightmare scenario (at a reasonable price). If anyone knows of one please share! :)

And maybe that's the case where the many (all of us who pay taxes) support the unfortunate few and say, "there but for the grace of God go I". Although I do wish companies would provide a coverage someone suggested in one of these threads- LTC for married couples that pays for the SECOND person in LTC. I saw my Aunt lose sleep at night over the cost of her husband's memory care- she'd nearly spent down to the max Medicaid would let her keep before he died 2 months ago. I sure hope her kids take care of her but I have my doubts.

There IS a life insurance product called "second-to-die", meant for wealthy couples. The idea was that the first to die might not have to pay estate taxes but when the second spouse died, it would kick in and the proceeds could be used for estate taxes. "Second to enter LTC" would be a useful product.
 
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I hope that [Banned LTC Salesman] continues to post and is not blocked from doing so. I find some, of his more factual comments about state partnerships and methods of the LTC insurer pricing evolution informative. I realize he is defending an industry he profits from, but I like hearing his input.

I'm observing this thread both as the child of a parent now spending down assets, while in a memory care facility, with runway that I pray paradoxically will not runout before her death; and as a person who purchased a LTC policy (as did DH)10 years ago. Those policies experienced an increase of around 30%, spread over 3 years back in 2014-2016. The premiums are well under .5% of our assets. Our agent tells us though that the cost of a comparable policy today would be much much greater, so I worry that our ten year old policy is too old to have been written with the newer protections that make further increases less likely. I hope that the policy purchased is the type that [Banned LTC Salesman] described as in the newer version of policies that were issued after the industry reckoned with the errors of the past. Here are a few of my questions:

1) when did this newer policy underwriting generally take place?
2) are these partnership programs in the 41 states, generally all the same, I.e. Dollars for dollars are protected, or do these protections vary by state?
3) why would a home health care agency become involved with helping to file a claim if they are not directly involved with also providing care to the insured?
4) why would the insurer pay the home health agency for processing the claim?
5) why is it in the insurer's interest to make the claims process go smoothly- wouldn't dragging it out benefit the insurer.
6) Much of the angst endured by posters is with Genworth. Does anyone have info on Prudential LTC policy claims? (They no longer issue policies and have farmed out policy administration but they are still responsible.)


Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum
 
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I hope that [Banned LTC Salesman] continues to post and is not blocked from doing so. I find some, of his more factual comments about state partnerships and methods of the LTC insurer pricing evolution informative.

Please share how you determine which of his comments are "more factual".
 
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I hope that [Banned LTC Salesman] continues to post and is not blocked from doing so. I find some, of his more factual comments about state partnerships and methods of the LTC insurer pricing evolution informative. I realize he is defending an industry he profits from, but I like hearing his input.
Other long term members have similar affiliations but have no difficulty providing information without engaging in advocacy or promotion. That is the key, which all members must respect.
 
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... Has anyone considered using an HSA as an LTC substitute? That is, maxing out HSA contributions (about 7K a year for a couple) and not spending until you reach nursing home-style expenses? A quick spreadsheet calculation assuming 7% returns and $7000 annual contributions starting at age 50 and stopping at age 65 returns 195K at age 65, 384K at age 75 and 538K at age 80. ....

That is my back of the mind plan... we have over a year of LTC costs in HSAs right now and they are 100% equities so I think it will grow faster than LTC costs... we should have a year and a half by the time we are in our mid 80s. It won't cover everything but it will help. Unfortunately the HI policy that we have is not HSA eligible so no new contributions.
 
Or maybe the LTC insurance companies have to underprice what they suspect will be a realistic price to sell any policies.

New regulations require them to lower their profits if they seek a rate increase. And they can't price profit into the rate increase itself. Therefore, there's no longer any incentive to "underprice".
 
[Banned LTC Salesman], you haven’t answered my question regarding your assertion that as long as one can buy a policy with premiums of less than one half of one percent of net worth, one should do so. Why? What is the basis for this formula? If someone can afford to self-insure, why shouldn’t they?


The basis is common sense investing.

If you had one million dollars of invest-able assets, would you choose a risky investment that could lose most of your principal. Or, would you choose a safer investment that could lose little or none of your principal?

If the risky investment only earned you an additional 50 basis points (e.g. one-half of one percent), why would you take that risk?

Long-term care insurance is portfolio insurance.
 
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Scuba, although I do not have any experience with long term care, or filing LTC claims, I can think of at least one collateral benefit of having a LTC policy. That is, access to the company's networks and referrals. Should I get into that position - like Athena, I am single (divorced, not widowed) - I'll be in a pickle if I have not previously researched and gone to visit assisted living, SNF or memory care facilities in my state. If I have not done the research, my placement will be determined by the law of "easiest and quickest" after a precipitating event when there is no time to fine-tune actions.

(**note to self: get on that right away!**)

I believe I need the knowledge and empirical resources lurking somewhere inside the insurance company. Data analysis about facilities. I don't count on my children being able to do in-depth research in real time, while under pressure.

My most sensible child is in California, in a skilled trades apprenticeship which leaves no time or bandwidth for anything else. My high strung child is a nervous wreck, with two pre-school children, a tough job, a big house, and a demanding husband. My youngest child does not yet have the sense that God gives gave a rock, although I do have hopes.

Shifting Mom over into in-home care, assisted living or memory care has got to be so easy that all they have to do is to read the ten-step instruction placard I will (at that point) be wearing around my neck, lol!

I'm thinking THAT is the benefit of access to the resources of a large organization with operations in your state of residence. An insurance company MUST have advisory personnel, experience with the facilities in the state, advice - every large organization is simply swimming with staff who analyze patterns of outcomes in their areas of operations.

Maybe I'm wrong.


Jane, you're 100% correct.
Most long-term care insurance policies pay for "care advisory services". These services are provided by local, geriatric care managers who assist you, in-person, at the time of claim. They are personally familiar with the care providers in your area. They also oversee your care on a regular basis as your care needs change.
 
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