Change in Mortgage Thinking in Retirement

It is a rationalization. The conventional advice of tapping taxable accounts first, then tax-deferred, then tax-free still applies... whether one uses the proceeds for expenses, mortgage payoff or geisha girls.


But it is conventional advice and not for everyone.... I have used ROTH money to pay expenses instead of selling more in my taxable account so I can keep under an income level for ACA purposes... I will probably be using some more later this year...



Now, when my kids go off plan or I hit 65 and it is tougher to keep the income low I will be going all in for tIRA conversions to ROTH and spending the taxable account... right now it does not make sense...
 
Being debt free in retirement was a key goal for us. We paid off our mortgage when DH retired. We wanted to make sure we could live off of SS and DH’s modest FERS pension if necessary in a bad market.
 
Being debt free in retirement was a key goal for us. We paid off our mortgage when DH retired. We wanted to make sure we could live off of SS and DH’s modest FERS pension if necessary in a bad market.
+1
We chose to be debt free and paid off our mortgage back in 2010. No regrets and haven't paid a dime in finance charges since then. It's much nicer to receive interest than to pay it, and I sleep better too!
 
It is generally accepted to be “financially” better to carry the mortgage on than to pay it off whenever investment returns outpace the mortgage rates. All retirement calculators say we are good to carry our mortgage for an infinite number of years. As a result of the above, a mortgage payment was always in our plan.



I have recently re-assessed this from many different angles and have decided to change my long held plan. By paying off the mortgage now, it reduces our annual income needs. I am thinking that is a better plan in the event of a major market correction. It also allows us to be more aggressive in our AA, not that higher returns are needed. The potentially higher returns of a higher stock allocation over the long term, could help to cover LTC without having to tap into the home, or provide an added inheritance for our heirs. We could be comfortable at or above our current lifestyle on either SS alone, or our remaining assets even considering a 30%-40% downturn in the market.



The dollars needed to pay off the mortgage will come from our Roth’s so there will be no taxable event. We are both >65 and have had the Roths for over 10 years. No tax related issues there. We are looking at Roth conversions over the next 4+years to reduce the RMD’s and to replenish our Roths’ available cash for some untaxed, unexpected expenses. Once RMD’s hit, we will have the RMDs’ taxes to pay whether we use that money or reinvest.



I know that this is a personal decision on so many levels. It seems that I am gravitating toward simplifying the monthly recurring bills as time moves on rather than trying to squeeze out the last penny from every aspect of our life. I wonder how many others have changed their retirement financial plans, mortgage or other, as they actually entered RE?



I paid my mortgage off after I retired for the same reason you did, to lower monthly expenses. No regrets.
 
In retirement what I save by having a paid off mortgage will be replaced by what I have pay out for healthcare.
 
Yes, I have changed my view. At one time I felt that it was best to pay off a mortgage before retirement. I've come to believe that what is more important is being able to pay it off rather than actually paying it off. We recently bought a new house and did get a mortgage although we made a sizable down payment. I do think that it is important to look at the overall finances before deciding to have a mortgage.

One factor that hasn't been mentioned here is that fixed rate mortgages don't increase with inflation. As time goes on, the percentage of my income that is used by the mortgage will decrease.

That said -- I understand fully why some would be more comfortable with no mortgage at all. When we bought the house we bought I was told that we could qualify for a larger mortgage than we took out. I would not have been remotely comfortable with that.
 
We will pay off our mortgage by end of 2018. Our note is 2.75% rate and we will be paying it off at the 2 year mark of a 10 year note. We will be age 63 and 60 at that time! The reason is to simplify our lives and know that we will have an extra $2k a month to do as we please at that point going forward. Basically, it’s a major bump to our monthly income! Our only expenses will be food, insurance, utilities, property taxes and HOA fees of $1500 a year plus home maintenance and clothing budget! We will have a significant surplus to do what we please (awesome vacations, charitable donations, fun stuff, gifts for kids and grandkids)! We will also have much more peace of mind! WooHoo!
 
While I may have some sympathy for your lack of joy, there is no reason to behave like an @ss towards other members of this forum.
 
mortgage as a % of monthly expenses is what matters.

right now I'm helping an older relative (early 70s) who has SS (taken at 62) plus about $500/month in dividends as their only income.

their mortgage/HELOC payment is close to 50% of their monthly spend.

they would be in MUCH better financial shape without the above.
So where did the money from the HELOC go?
Back when home equity was treated like a savings account, many people tapped HELOC for kids college, new cars, home repairs (some needed, some improvements), etc. Perhaps any/all of these are good reasons to borrow. However, to lump debt used for other issues than housing, and include those payments in the cost of housing is not really accurate towards the OP's point.
I don't mean to be insensitive, but we need to compare apples to apples when looking at housing costs. The financial problem these folks have is not housing related, if a HELOC is part of the problem.
 
We are in the "mortgage is so small it isn't a problem-would rather have that cash in the bank" crowd.

Pet peeve are financial experts that lump all housing related payments (taxes, insurance) into the mortgage category: They act like a paid off mortgage removes all housing costs. It does not. You might be paying 1/2 of your mortgage payment to the tax and insurance man. Those costs continue when mortgage free. In our case, we would be saving just over a hundred a month in interest. Again, rather have the money in the bank. But I do understand the peace of mind of being totally debt free.
 
For us with the new tax law, a mortgage made zero sense. We are not going to have a mortgage on our new build. It will really help with cash flow when we FIRE in 2020.
You make a good point. Have to consider after tax cost of funds versus after tax investment returns as well as time horizon if the alternative is equity investing.

Also, you have to expect to beat your after tax cost of funds by an amount sufficient to make the risk worthwhile (since you could lose money), in my view.

Still working and so far have kept the mortgage. But it is small and at 2.7% at least for 3 more years.

With the run we have had in equities, it does not seem like a crazy time to pay down the mortgage.

However I personally would not pull IRA funds to do it.
 
But it is conventional advice and not for everyone.... I have used ROTH money to pay expenses instead of selling more in my taxable account so I can keep under an income level for ACA purposes... I will probably be using some more later this year...



Now, when my kids go off plan or I hit 65 and it is tougher to keep the income low I will be going all in for tIRA conversions to ROTH and spending the taxable account... right now it does not make sense...

I agree that there can be other constraints like ACA that make the conventiona advice suboptimal but the OP has not mentioned anything like that.
 
For us with the new tax law, a mortgage made zero sense. We are not going to have a mortgage on our new build. It will really help with cash flow when we FIRE in 2020.

The new tax law will make little difference for us... while our mortgage interest is no longer deductible since the new standard deduction exceeds out itemized deductions at the same time the income on money that we would use to pay off the mortgage isn't subject to tax either because of the 0% tax rate on qualified dividends and LTCG.

So for us it is a simple play of whether our investment earnings rate exceeds our 3.375% mortgage interest rate. It has and I expect it will continue.
 
So where did the money from the HELOC go?
Back when home equity was treated like a savings account, many people tapped HELOC for kids college, new cars, home repairs (some needed, some improvements), etc. Perhaps any/all of these are good reasons to borrow. However, to lump debt used for other issues than housing, and include those payments in the cost of housing is not really accurate towards the OP's point.
I don't mean to be insensitive, but we need to compare apples to apples when looking at housing costs. The financial problem these folks have is not housing related, if a HELOC is part of the problem.

They use the HELOC to smooth things out monthly, since their only source of income apart from taken-at-age-62 ( white collar, but low-wage) SS retirement comes from quarterly dividends.
 
They use the HELOC to smooth things out monthly, since their only source of income apart from taken-at-age-62 ( white collar, but low-wage) SS retirement comes from quarterly dividends.

Of course the issue is any borrowing to smooth things makes everything worse the following months.

Imagine yearly income exactly yearly equaled costs, then they borrow for 1 month and pay it off, but the interest cost was $2
By the end of the year they are now short $2 as that was an added cost.
So they borrow again and pay another $2 interest, only now they will be short $4 per year.

In reality the numbers are bigger, and people don't see the problem as most folks are mathematically challenged.
 
I have a question, how far, how old is your mortgage? If it is towards the end, the interest paid on the loan drops and the principal receives the bulk of the payment (amortization). So it would seem (if the mortgage is older) that paying it off for the sake of being free of it would be my next math problem to solve. BTW, I am no financial wizard.
 
Ours is 6 1/2 years old... out of 15 years. I don't get the "sake of being free of it".... mine is on auto-pay and as a result I hardly notice it.

My portfolio returns for 2016, 2017 and YTD 2018 were 8.84%, 14.1% and 2.62%... my mortgage cost is 3.375% (1.55% YTD)... so why would I pay it off?
 
Risk vs. Return - Where to draw the line

We kept a mortgage while we were w*rking so we could (potentially) maximize our returns. We paid off the house when we FIRED so we could reduce risk. It may make sense to consider the decision as part of your overall risk/return strategy. We keep a fairly high stock allocation, 70%. Accordingly, we take less risk elsewhere.
 
We paid off the house when we FIRED so we could reduce risk.
How does paying off the mortgage reduce risk? Yes, it reduces your outgoing cash flow, but risk?

The risk in having a mortgage is that you have to make the monthly payment. If you have enough money and enough incoming cash flow, the risk of being unable to make the payment is zero.
 
I have a question, how far, how old is your mortgage? If it is towards the end, the interest paid on the loan drops and the principal receives the bulk of the payment (amortization). So it would seem (if the mortgage is older) that paying it off for the sake of being free of it would be my next math problem to solve. BTW, I am no financial wizard.

Assuming a fixed rate mortgage, regardless of how many years are left to pay, you are still paying the same rate for the remaining balance. i.e. If you have a 4% mortgage, you pay that same 4% on the 1st payment as on the last dollar paid.


P.S. It's been over a week since I asked for a payoff statement. So far, no reply.
 
For everyone who has paid it off, did you then open a HELOC for “just in case?”
 
How does paying off the mortgage reduce risk? Yes, it reduces your outgoing cash flow, but risk?

The risk in having a mortgage is that you have to make the monthly payment. If you have enough money and enough incoming cash flow, the risk of being unable to make the payment is zero.


Many have stated they are keeping their mortgage because their investment returns out perform the interest rate on their mortgage. But to achieve this potential arbitrage they are investing in risk assets. Stating it another way, paying off the mortgage yields a "risk free" return equal to your mortgage interest rate. Nothing wrong with keeping the mortgage. Potential return goes up but so does risk. The same applies to all the stocks I own instead of CDs.
 
....We paid off the house when we FIRED so we could reduce risk. ...

How does paying off the mortgage reduce risk? Yes, it reduces your outgoing cash flow, but risk?

The risk in having a mortgage is that you have to make the monthly payment. If you have enough money and enough incoming cash flow, the risk of being unable to make the payment is zero.

In theory, the higher your obligatory payments/cash outflow, the higher the risk... because if TSHTF you may not have sufficient cash inflows or assets to make those payments and as a result bad things may happen (foreclosure, tax sale, reposession or whatever). By paying off the mortgage one reduces those obligatory payments which in turn reduces risk.
 
Back
Top Bottom