Marriage Proposal on FIRE Forum

[Chuckanut]

2. Dating as a chump, most of us fall in this category, initially anyway. We try to do things from the perspective of what worked when we were younger. Or how we think. We're the ultimate nice-guy. Gets pushed around, women don't give you the time of day. You then try to buy their attention through expensive dates, clothing, cars, showing your financial prowess etc only to realize it rarely works. You then listen to a bunch of pickup artists and acquire game and have mild to vague results.

3. Dating as a man who really understands what works and why. This is not the simplest and yet the hardest to be because you have to learn to separate your emotions from your actions and look at things objectively. Most of us men are not designed this way, we're simple beings but we're dealing with the most complicated beings so the change has to happen in our thinking.

https://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339

the "Nice Guy Syndrome" trying too hard to please others while neglecting one's own needs

Great book to help a man get from #2 to #3 above.

 

[dvalley]

I'm not sure this is true, but in any event you shouldn't speak for most guys. I'm sure this varies a great deal depending on age, location, culture, etc.

I stand corrected. "Most guys" do the opposite, "few guys" live by that rule. The reasoning is along the same lines that Chuckanut posted above.

 

[dvalley]

https://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339



Great book to help a man get from #2 to #3 above.

Dang, you are quick. I made a couple of corrections to my post but you quoted the original already.

Don't know that particular book but that's what most guys are. Sure there are a few women who don't mind that but if you want to attract women you have to do things backwards than what's been taught through the media.

 

[athena53]

Dang, you are quick. I made a couple of corrections to my post but you quoted the original already.

Don't know that particular book but that's what most guys are. Sure there are a few women who don't mind that but if you want to attract women you have to do things backwards than what's been taught through the media.

I must be odd. I DO like nice guys but I don't want to be wooed with lavish lunches and dinners. Fancy cars don't impress me. (Whatever you drive, however, should be clean and in working order.) I find it a turnoff when men say in their bios, "I'm old-fashioned and I know how to treat a lady, I open car doors, help her on with her coat, open doors..." I want a partner and I want 50-50 (on average- not every occasion). Coffee is just fine for the first meeting and I'll buy my own. After that, whoever suggests a date pays for it and it should be roughly 50-50. Not sure what I'd do if a guy went for the most expensive restaurant in town- it's not a big fiscal priority of mine and while I could afford to reciprocate, I wouldn't want to do that regularly. A $150 bottle of wine tastes the same to me as a $25 bottle. I think I might have to break up with Mr. Megabucks.

 

[dvalley]

Really? That's not been my experience. Out of ~25-30 online dates, I had three that met for coffee (and one of these then invited me to dinner immediately afterwards), one that met for wine -- and then extended it to appetizers and invited me to a $350 dinner a few weeks later. Everyone else I met for lunch or dinner....not that I expected it.

Must be different where you live.

omni

So, honestly speaking and more as a PSA what did you think of these men? Did the expensive wining and dining make you want to take things further? Because that's what they were doing it for?

Remember you're under oath

 

[dvalley]

I must be odd. I DO like nice guys but I don't want to be wooed with lavish lunches and dinners. Fancy cars don't impress me. (Whatever you drive, however, should be clean and in working order.) I find it a turnoff when men say in their bios, "I'm old-fashioned and I know how to treat a lady, I open car doors, help her on with her coat, open doors..." I want a partner and I want 50-50 (on average- not every occasion). Coffee is just fine for the first meeting and I'll buy my own. After that, whoever suggests a date pays for it and it should be roughly 50-50. Not sure what I'd do if a guy went for the most expensive restaurant in town- it's not a big fiscal priority of mine and while I could afford to reciprocate, I wouldn't want to do that regularly. A $150 bottle of wine tastes the same to me as a $25 bottle. I think I might have to break up with Mr. Megabucks.

You're the woman I and most nice guys are looking for too (unpretentious, normal person looking for a partner to enjoy life with) but your type are so rare. It depends on the age group too.

Problem is that it's the nice guys that are telling you they'll open the door for you, they're old fashioned...and spending money on you to buy your approval/acceptance/courtship - all that stuff is nice guy speak. Guess where they got that from? The media and the society. What do they normally get from women? a friendship after a few dates.

 

[omni550]

So, honestly speaking and more as a PSA what did you think of these men? Did the expensive wining and dining make you want to take things further? Because that's what they were doing it for?

Remember you're under oath

Expensive wining and dining means absolutely nothing to me. I have eaten at many fabulous restaurants here and overseas on the company dime as well as my own. I just thought it a bit odd (pretentious, perhaps) when this guy dropped $350 on our first real date...champagne on ice, calling the chef out of the kitchen to consult, etc.

More important to me are a man's honesty, truthfulness, values, intelligence, personality, lifestyle, etc. and if we genuinely like each other. Those are among the things I'm looking for.

I can't speak for all women. I'm sure there are gold diggers out there and ladies looking for a 'free' dinner....just like there are guys simply looking for a roll in the hay. Perhaps they will find each other.

omni

 

[RunningBum]

... But there was one woman who not only didn't like that idea but laid into me for suggesting it. She called me all kinds of names and berated me for not offering to take her out to dinner on a first meeting. I replied to her that it was good to find out now that she was seeing me only as a free meal so I could steer clear of her.

I think I would've apologized, and set up a date at the nicest restaurant in town...then be a no-show. Or if I felt a little more civil, cancel at the very last minute.

 

[dvalley]

Expensive wining and dining means absolutely nothing to me. I have eaten at many fabulous restaurants here and overseas on the company dime as well as my own. I just thought it a bit odd (pretentious, perhaps) when this guy dropped $350 on our first real date...champagne on ice, calling the chef out of the kitchen to consult, etc.

More important to me are a man's honesty, truthfulness, values, intelligence, personality, lifestyle, etc. and if we genuinely like each other. Those are among the things I'm looking for.

I can't speak for all women. I'm sure there are gold diggers out there and ladies looking for a 'free' dinner....just like there are guys simply looking for a roll in the hay. Perhaps they will find each other.

omni

Thank you! That's exactly what I thought you'd say.

1. First, you're a quality woman, not surprising since you're on this message board. You're also likely well educated, smart and responsible.

2. When you say you found it 'odd' that he would spend that kind of money on the first date, that's my point, it is odd. Furthermore, instinctively that 'odd' feeling more than likely translated into him coming across as desperate, trying to buy your approval. I'm sure there was other evidence in the conversations too. In his mind he's thinking 'the other guy can't afford this so she must pick me over him'. In the end, I'm going to take a random guess here, you probably said 'Thank you for the lovely dinner...but I'm just not feeling it'. He went home $350 lighter. Now if he did this even once a month it's like a small car payment and may be he can easily afford that BUT you don't even know the person you're spending that kind of money on.

 

[Music Lover]

I think I would've apologized, and set up a date at the nicest restaurant in town...then be a no-show. Or if I felt a little more civil, cancel at the very last minute.

Or, show up, suggest that she should order the priciest item, and then ask for separate bills...

 

[omni550]

Thank you! That's exactly what I thought you'd say.

1. First, you're a quality woman, not surprising since you're on this message board. You're also likely well educated, smart and responsible.

2. When you say you found it 'odd' that he would spend that kind of money on the first date, that's my point, it is odd. Furthermore, instinctively that 'odd' feeling more than likely translated into him coming across as desperate, trying to buy your approval. I'm sure there was other evidence in the conversations too. In his mind he's thinking 'the other guy can't afford this so she must pick me over him'. In the end, I'm going to take a random guess here, you probably said 'Thank you for the lovely dinner...but I'm just not feeling it'. He went home $350 lighter. Now if he did this even once a month it's like a small car payment and may be he can easily afford that BUT you don't even know the person you're spending that kind of money on.

Or perhaps he just really wanted to dine at this lovely restaurant and wanted a beautiful, intelligent dinner companion to go with?

We'll never know.

I did thank him for dinner and that's the last I heard from him.

omni

 

[dvalley]

Or perhaps he just really wanted to dine at this lovely restaurant and wanted a beautiful, intelligent dinner companion to go with?

We'll never know.

I did thank him for dinner and that's the last I heard from him.

omni

He probably expected you to show some hint that you would like to see him again because he sounds like the typical approval seeking nice-guy and needs to know he has a chance with you for a second date before asking you out.

Or may be you'll hear from him once his bank account has recovered again

 

[vrijheid]

i usually shy away from that type of medical conditions...

Unless you meant a prenup?

+++1
rofl

 

[athena53]

Or, show up, suggest that she should order the priciest item, and then ask for separate bills...

Or forget your wallet!

I agree on the $350 dinner- I'd feel like the guy was trying WAY too hard. That's not how I live. My husband and I once had a dinner at Simpsons-in-Strand in London almost 20 years ago that cost $200 for the two of us but it was a very special occasion.

 

[Music Lover]

Or forget your wallet!

I agree on the $350 dinner- I'd feel like the guy was trying WAY too hard. That's not how I live. My husband and I once had a dinner at Simpsons-in-Strand in London almost 20 years ago that cost $200 for the two of us but it was a very special occasion.

I've never had a $350 dinner, so one on a first date is beyond my comprehension level. I prefer ( and I'm sure most others do as well) for a first date to be something causal and inexpensive...meet for a coffee or a drink. The goal is to talk and see if there's enough mutual interest to meet again.

 

[athena53]

I've never had a $350 dinner, so one on a first date is beyond my comprehension level. I prefer ( and I'm sure most others do as well) for a first date to be something causal and inexpensive...meet for a coffee or a drink. The goal is to talk and see if there's enough mutual interest to meet again.

IIRC, she said that this was the first "real" date after they met for coffee, but still... over the top. I suppose there's a possibility of dating a guy who's so loaded that he can live like that but I'd be far more concerned that, like my first husband, he put up a splendid front but had zero resources and terrible credit.

 

[ER Eddie]

The reality of the situation is that as we get older there are fewer men than women. So, if anything, the women in the 55+ group should be offering to buy the men a coffee, glass of wine or dinner. Honestly, guys, if you are financially secure (not necessarily wealthy), bathe regularly, and have no serious addictions other than coffee and chocolate, you are already ahead of 50% of the dwindling pack. Just don't act like a jerk in her eyes. Nothing will redeem that behavior.

Now excuse me while I put on my Kevlar vest.

No, you're speaking the truth. Women outnumber men period, but increasingly so as we get older, because men have this annoying habit of dying. There is also a SMV element which I won't get into, because otherwise I'll have to borrow that vest of yours.

Just anecdotally, I joined Our Time once (this is the match.com spin-off which is focused on people over 50). I was swarmed by women. It took me aback. I'm an average looking guy on a good day, hardly the tall/dark/handsome type. I also live in a small community of maybe 50K people, so it's not like I was drawing from the population of a large metropolitan area. Even so, there were dozens of women who wanted to talk with me. Granted, some were scammers, but still, the attention was a little much. It actually put me off and made me backpeddle.

 

[ER Eddie]

I must be odd. I DO like nice guys but I don't want to be wooed with lavish lunches and dinners.

To clarify, when men refer to "nice guys" in this context, they are basically talking about people-pleasers or approval seekers -- guys who put a woman's approval above their own integrity.

Nothing wrong with being a genuinely nice, kind guy. I would hope most women would want that. What men are talking about with the "nice guy" thing is guys who are so invested in getting a woman's approval (or getting her in bed) that they'll do lots of favors for her, be overly friendly/validating/solicitous, let go of their own values/interests, etc., just to please (or I would say manipulate) a woman. That's a "nice guy."

 

[JustCurious]

IMHO there are three types of dating:

1. The younger years, mostly innocent...you find a girl, you tie her down and you live happily ever after. If you're the first 50%. The other 50% you're divorced. Welcome to mid-life dating.

2. Dating as a chump, most of us fall in this category, initially anyway. We try to do things from the perspective of what worked when we were younger. Or how we think. We're the ultimate nice-guy. Get pushed around, women don't give you the time of day. You get ghosted after the first or second date or friendzoned. You then try to buy their attention through expensive dates, clothing, cars, showing your financial prowess etc only to realize it rarely works. You then listen to a bunch of pickup artists and acquire game and have mild to vague results.

3. Dating as a man who really understands what works and why. This is the simplest and yet the hardest to do because you have to learn to separate your emotions from your actions and look at things objectively. Most of us men are not designed this way, we're simple beings but we're dealing with the most complicated beings so the change has to happen in our thinking.

Wow. This is the most insightful post I have read on here in a long time. You are so right! Getting from 2 to 3 is hard, some guys never get there. You have to learn to be true to yourself and stop trying to please women just for the sake of being with a woman. In other words, man up, and you will naturally attract the right woman.

 

[haha]

The reality of the situation is that as we get older there are fewer men than women. So, if anything, the women in the 55+ group should be offering to buy the men a coffee, glass of wine or dinner. Honestly, guys, if you are financially secure (not necessarily wealthy), bathe regularly, and have no serious addictions other than coffee and chocolate, you are already ahead of 50% of the dwindling pack. Just don't act like a jerk in her eyes. Nothing will redeem that behavior.

Now excuse me while I put on my Kevlar vest.

This is true for sure, but an attractive, sexually skilled woman with an appealing personality has no trouble dating up or down the age scale. A guy may be 55 but some of his competitors for a given woman may be 35.

Ha

 

[dvalley]

There is also a SMV element which I won't get into, because otherwise I'll have to borrow that vest of yours.

Smart man! I've had to be very PC for the same reason

 

[Amethyst]

Neither of my husbands, nor any serious boy friends, gave any indication of expecting sex in return for dinner/entertainment. They would have considered that insulting to both of us, as in "I expect that she'll pay for food with her body."

We waited until till sex became the obvious, inevitable thing for both of us to do. Since I *have* to have an intellectual connection and a strong sense of the other person's integrity, that sometimes took a little time.

As husband #1 put it later on, "I like dinner and shows, but they're more fun when you are with someone you like. I knew you liked me and nature would take its course."

As Mr. A. (much more direct personality) put it, "If she doesn't really want me, I don't really want her."

I realize there are some deplorable women out there who try to get free dinners out of men. The rest of us have various names for that type of person. It's still not right to push such women for sex. Just drop 'em and forget 'em.

By the way, No. 1 was younger than I am, and Mr. A. is considerably older. I just pick classy men.

I'm not sure this is true, but in any event you shouldn't speak for most guys. I'm sure this varies a great deal depending on age, location, culture, etc.

 

[Amethyst]

My first husband, who was a college student who worked at a store, took me for our first date to a restaurant so expensive they did not have prices on the menu. It was 1978 and I recall he dropped about $80 on dinner and drinks (plus a tip which I politely did not look at), which would be at least $350 in today's money. He said later that it was a first date, which is special, and he thought I was worth it. I mean, sheesh, sometimes they think we are beautiful and they like to show us a good time!

We went to modest places after that, but never forgot that first date! By the way, the food wasn't any better than at a regular restaurant. It was just way, way fancier and they made a huge fuss over us.

Or forget your wallet!

I agree on the $350 dinner- I'd feel like the guy was trying WAY too hard. That's not how I live. My husband and I once had a dinner at Simpsons-in-Strand in London almost 20 years ago that cost $200 for the two of us but it was a very special occasion.

 

[dvalley]

We waited until till sex became the obvious, inevitable thing for both of us to do. Since I *have* to have an intellectual connection and a strong sense of the other person's integrity, that sometimes took a little time.

I agree with most of what you said, it's common sense stuff. However, the above sentence is where I'm going to challenge you a bit. Why is it that a man has to prove himself to you "intellectually" but you don't have to prove yourself to him sexually? See the unfairness? I can say: I *have* to feel that physical connection before wanting to invest my time, money and emotions into someone.

The second thing is that sex is equally enjoyed by both so why is it used as a way to control a man by so many women? Sure you probably don't want to sleep with people on the first dates but a woman usually knows very quickly if the guy is a partner material, friend material or neither. My point is, as adults we shouldn't make sex such a big deal if we like eachother, we're not getting any younger and it's a basic human need. Just as women want that emotional and intellectual connection, men want the physical connection.

 

[Amethyst]

If the man felt as you do, it would surface fairly quickly and we would part ways. There is no "fairness" or "tit for tat" (sorry if "tit" comes off as a double entendre). And the notion of having to "prove" myself to anyone sexually (what does that even mean? That I am willing to assume certain positions? That I have certain involuntary responses? That I bounce around a lot and make noises?) is alien to me.

I need a certain connection for my desires to kick in. If I don't have that connection, I won't enjoy sex the way I want to, and as I would hope the man wants me to. You don't want a woman whose desires work that way, so we won't have sex and you will find somebody else. It's that simple.

Fortunately, there are men who feel the way I do about it all. Or at least they have, in connection with me

Oh, and if anyone said "We're not getting any younger" it would be an instant turn-off and I would be Ubering my way home.

I agree with most of what you said, it's common sense stuff. However, the above sentence is where I'm going to challenge you a bit. Why is it that a man has to prove himself to you "intellectually" but you don't have to prove yourself to him sexually? See the unfairness? I can say: I *have* to feel that physical connection before wanting to invest my time, money and emotions into someone.

The second thing is that sex is equally enjoyed by both so why is it used as a way to control a man by so many women? Sure you probably don't want to sleep with people on the first dates but a woman usually knows very quickly if the guy is a partner material, friend material or neither. My point is, as adults we shouldn't make sex such a big deal if we like eachother, we're not getting any younger and it's a basic human need. Just as women want that emotional and intellectual connection, men want the physical connection.