ACA at risk?

Status
Not open for further replies.
I wonder what would happen if they passed a law saying that the most a health care provider could charge for any service code would be 200% of the minimum that they charge.... IOW, the highest rate for service #xyzabc could be no more than 200% of the lowest negotiated price paid by an insurer (excluding Medicare).
 
...
Doc Charges say $300 for a consult or whatever, Insurance companies pay the negotiated rate of $34 Doc writes off $266 on taxes. So Government ends up picking up the slack AGAIN anyway.

PS. This was an Actual number from one of DW's EOBs. Check yours sometime.
My DW has to get regular bloodwork when she sees her specialist.

Code:
2018 examples
Billed		Plan Pays
$623.97		$54.52
$1,070.31	$96.96
$193.15		$21.90
$755.12		$61.87
 
I wonder what would happen if they passed a law saying that the most a health care provider could charge for any service code would be 200% of the minimum that they charge.... IOW, the highest rate for service #xyzabc could be no more than 200% of the lowest negotiated price paid by an insurer (excluding Medicare).
Or, providers can have only one price and can discount up to xx% to insurers?

They will invent new charges that are not subject to insurance, such as facility fees. Or break down current procedures into smaller, separate pieces priced separately but add up to much more. Or redefine procedures.

Back in my earlier days at Megacorp I worked in pricing. We were subject to price controls and spent considerable time and effort looking for ways to get price increase approvals. It was challenging and I learned a lot, was also able to contribute ideas that worked. Lots of good memories of that time, and we always found a way.

Gov’t is no match for a motivated private sector. There is endless creativity and ingenuity out there, and it has found an outlet in health care. No easy solutions or quick fixes here; this will take a generation to fix.
 
^^^^ That is why I'm fine with some sort of BIG change.... the current system is broke and FUBAR... so let's take our chances and blow it up and do something different.
 
They will invent new charges that are not subject to insurance, such as facility fees. Or break down current procedures into smaller, separate pieces priced separately but add up to much more. Or redefine procedures.

This makes the case for a system such as Medicare for All which has a structure of allowed services and payments.

Gov’t is no match for a motivated private sector. There is endless creativity and ingenuity out there, and it has found an outlet in health care. No easy solutions or quick fixes here; this will take a generation to fix.

The private sector is motivated alright.....for profit. Healthcare is not a profit maximising industry. Doctors and nurses don’t need financial incentives to do a good job but rather are motivated by aims of patient care and job satisfaction. We've diddled around with healthcare systems for over 40 years and it can be fixed fairly quickly if affordable healthcare is the goal and not maintaining the status quo. As with Medicare the difficulty of rising demand, but limited willingness to increase taxes to pay for it is a major hurdle. Nothing is free.
 
The invisible hand of the free market is more effective with Big Macs than health care. The invisible hand needs some conditions to work, namely “perfect market conditions”. Buyers and sellers must know all they need to know about what they are buying and selling to make the right decisions, and the market must have all price takers, no price makers. This is the case for Big Macs, commodities, and many consumer goods. Not the case for health care, thought, where there is a critical imbalance in the knowledge of the product between sellers and buyers. There are price makers as well, in this case insurers, who set prices based on their own interest, which aligns with neither the provider nor the consumer.

Kenneth Arrow established and explained this in his 1963 paper, which can be found here https://web.stanford.edu/~jay/health_class/Readings/Lecture01/arrow.pdf

I tried to read the paper but quit about halfway through. I have a similar strategy with books that I think are poor.

I note that Dr. Arrow has won the Nobel Prize in Economics, earned a PhD from Columbia University, and was a professor at Stanford. I have done none of those things. Still, I wasn't impressed by the paper in a number of ways.

It has, in my opinion, major gaps in logic. There is very little in the way of empirical data or hypothesis or testing - there is some reference to some data from a 1961 source, but overall the paper reads more like an expository essay than a scientific paper. There is some math at the end and in some footnotes, but all of the coefficients and demand curve equations and whatnot were hypothetical. It expresses the authors views and understanding of medical practice, again without much data or evidence or even interviews with anyone in the medical field to back them up.(*)

Finally, there are things stated in the paper that are simply not true any more although they may have been true 58 years ago when he wrote the paper. As you know, many federal and state laws in the area of health care have changed - Medicare and Medicaid were signed into law 4 years *after* this paper was written. There have been changes in doctor training, how medicine is practiced, changes in the areas of malpractice, the cost of medical school, how low income people receive health care, how health insurance works, etc.

I also disagree with your assertions about the requirements on a functioning free market. I think you can have a function free market if there is at least some opportunity to learn some of the knowledge. I have far less knowledge than my auto mechanic, but I certainly feel qualified to pick and choose one in a free market. Similarly with a CPA or lawyer or university, and I would also assert, a doctor. I can learn enough about a transmission rebuild or straight line depreciation or a TURP to ask some reasonable questions and suss out if I think a mechanic or CPA or doctor is good or bad. I can ask, and the doctor will tell me, his complication rate, his educational background, the last time he passed his boards, how many of the procedures he has done, and whether or not he has ever lost a malpractice case. (Some of that information is probably even public record.)

I would also add that I think consumers of Big Macs or medical care mostly should be the ones to decide what information is important and how much time and effort they want to spend to get it. When I buy a Big Mac, I don't ask if the sesame seeds are organic because I frankly don't care; but some other consumers might. And McDonalds would react, just like they eventually reacted to people wanting to know how many calories were in a large order of fries.

I thought price makers vs. price takers were a function of the relative elasticity of the supply and demand curves, but I'm not very well trained in economics. And I think when insurance companies and the employers get intertwined it can be harder to figure out.

I think overall the arrow of causality is the other way around - we don't currently have much of a free market, so the consumer doesn't even try to ask those kinds of questions, because we are mostly not incentivized to. "Is the doctor in network and what is my out-of-pocket?" and maybe how soon can I be seen. I don't think that it is the information asymmetry that results in the inability to have a free (or relatively free) market, as Dr. Arrow asserts.

Probably way more than you or anyone wanted to read.

(*) At least as far as I read. I read closely the first third or so, and moderately carefully scanned the rest.
 
^^^^ That is why I'm fine with some sort of BIG change.... the current system is broke and FUBAR... so let's take our chances and blow it up and do something different.

Poll just came out this week. Medicare for All is 43% favor, 45% opposed.

Medicare buy-in was like 45% to 31% I believe.

Usually polls show people are happy with their health care plan. Employer-subsidized plan is going to be better than any individual plan but it's being chipped way every year, higher premiums or deductions from paychecks, higher overall OOP.

I didn't realize some of the ACA requirements like no lifetime caps and no barring of preexisting conditions also applied to employer-provided plans as well.


Most Americans probably wouldn't risk what they have. Things would have to get really bad for a big majority to clamor for big change.
 
I didn't realize some of the ACA requirements like no lifetime caps and no barring of preexisting conditions also applied to employer-provided plans as well.
Yep. If the entire ACA is thrown out, even those happy with their employer plans may find a return to lifetime benefit caps, and no more insuring children to age 26 -- only until 18 unless they are full time students, which was the pre-ACA norm.

I don't know how many people who think the loss of the ACA is no big deal to them because they have employer insurance has stopped to think about these things. Even if you don't have a Marketplace policy, a lot of these changes could ripple back into employer plans.
 
In non-emergency situations, I try to do a simple cost benefit analysis on any medical product or service. Finding the cost, for anyone who's tried to do it, is difficult and frequently ambiguous or opaque beyond some multiple order-of-magnitude guess - $40 or $4000. I get the impression that very few people try to do price discovery and thus very few select based on price.
In the few medical situations where we do have price transparency and true customer pay (e.g. LASIK eye surgery, most cosmetic surgery, etc) costs have not increased nearly as much as in the rest of the the medical system, and patients are generally quite happy with the promptness and quality of care. And there are some surgical clinics that do not accept insurance and that have good outcomes and much lower total prices. But these situations are rather unique--they tend to be discrete, one-time, non-urgent medical requirements.

I'm less optimistic that this would work for even a very savvy consumer who had a cancer diagnosis, chronic heart or liver disease, etc. And this is where a lot of our spending goes. I think it might be better if there was a more free market for people to choose the overall "agent" for their health care (a PPO insurer, an HMO, an accountable care organization (ACO), etc). So, you would shop for the "agent", they would shop for (or directly provide) the care.

How would this be different from today's insurance? It seems to me that, certainly in the Marketplace programs, insurers now have what amounts to a "cost plus" contract. There's little incentive to reduce spending on medical services if your company gets to keep 20% above whatever is spent. To the contrary--more spending means that the allowable 20% increases. The current level of subsidies for Marketplace insurance premiums does serve to reduce downward pressure on premiums.


The cost of medical care will continue to rise as long as larger amounts of corporate, individual, and government funds are pumped into the system. We have a similar situation in higher education--it is more clear in that case that there's no objective reason that the cost of educating a college student should be higher each year, but various policies make easy money available, so costs rise.

Three important roles government could play (IMO):
1) Create standardized coverages and descriptions. This was done in the case of Medicare supplement insurance, and significantly benefited consumers. Insurers/providers >hate< transparency and standardization, consumers benefit from it. It makes price comparisons simple and turns these services into commodities. This would not prohibit providers from throwing extras into their "purple" package, but all purple plans would have basic attributes in common.

2) Collect and make usable by consumers health care/provider outcome information and patient satisfaction information. This is critical information consumers need to choose well, and to build a functioning free market. If people in a region can see that those insured by Helping Hand insurance hate their plans, or that they wait 10 months for a knee replacement, then they may be more likely to choose a different "agent".

3) Discontinue policies that encourage a linkages between employment and health care. (This could be controversial :))
 
Last edited:
+1 ---- Again, if we valued Human Life like we valued Material things, cars, houses clothes etc. - There would be an 'Incentive' to cut costs and compete... Right now, since Human Life is Priceless they are Pricing their products and services accordingly.
Interesting idea. Why don't you start?

So what dollar value do you happen to place on your life? How about on your spouse's life?

It's all fun when we talk about "if we valued". It's less fun when it's you.
 
Interesting idea. Why don't you start?

So what dollar value do you happen to place on your life? How about on your spouse's life?

It's all fun when we talk about "if we valued". It's less fun when it's you.

I don't place a dollar value on life, but I do place a value on quality of life.

IMO sometimes it's not the actual cost of treatments, it's the fact that since insurance will pay doctors can do absolutely horrific treatments even if there is only a slight chance they will work and/or prolong life. The question doesn't really become is this the life you want to have, it becomes will insurance pay for this?


A young woman in our small town just died this week. Early 30's developed leukemia when she was about 6, 30 years ago. Was treated and had a bone marrow transplant that never took. Immediately was given a second one which was successful. She spent 9 months straight in the hospital due to complications. One of the complications was that she never got any taller then a 9 year old. Had much difficulty with walking and such. Mentally she was fine thank goodness. Got a completely different blood cancer in the early 2000's which was aggressively treated. Developed yet another cancer 18 months ago and had a prolonged painful passing early last week.

It's like insurance drives the bus when it seems like it should be the other way around. It's ironic that more then a few people would have a much better quality end of life without insurance and aggressive medical treatment. That's an individual decision but I know which one I would choose.

I know something has to change with cost containment and insurance but darned if I know what the right answer is.
 
If we value human life as much as is touted, then Healthcare should be the Highest Priority. It should be so affordable so all can benefit, no matter what one's social status is. The opposite as to what it is now.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
+1 ---- Again, if we valued Human Life like we valued Material things, cars, houses clothes etc. - There would be an 'Incentive' to cut costs and compete... Right now, since Human Life is Priceless they are Pricing their products and services accordingly.



Interesting idea. Why don't you start?

So what dollar value do you happen to place on your life? How about on your spouse's life?

It's all fun when we talk about "if we valued". It's less fun when it's you.


This certainly was NOT an Idea! .... I was merely explaining on why there are few Cost Controls on Medical Services. I think you need to re-read what I wrote.
 
At ages 62 & 63 DW and I are hoping to limp into Medicare on my expensive retiree plan. I could have gone the ACA route, managed my income and got a subsidy. However once dropped the retiree plan immediately becomes unavailable. Hopefully it will last for another 2 years and 10 months. Every Fall we anxiously await the enrollment information to see if the rumored program elimination will hit this year.It would be my luck that both ACA and the retiree plans would be terminated and we'd both get stuck in some risk pool at 30k per year.

It certainly is a mess and I don't know the solution. However throwing the baby out with the bath water will only make it worse. IMHO
 
Last edited:
+1 ---- Again, if we valued Human Life like we valued Material things, cars, houses clothes etc. - There would be an 'Incentive' to cut costs and compete... Right now, since Human Life is Priceless they are Pricing their products and services accordingly.

I disagree. I think as long as you have multiple providers of a service and the consumer is price sensitive, there is incentive to compete on price and over time prices should fall to approximate cost plus a reasonable profit.

As an aside, I read an interesting book a long time ago about the man who had to distribute a very large lump sum (appropriated by Congress IIRC) to the families of the 9/11 victims. He was the sole decider and had to weigh how much to give each family. I wouldn't want that job for anything, but it was interesting to follow the thought process and what was weighed and what the final results were.

As a further aside, there is an economic value placed on human lives quite frequently in areas like road construction and automobile safety. Do we buy a bunch of dynamite and blow away half of this hillside to make this road straighter? It'll cost $850,000 but will save 0.2 lives per decade. Do we install side curtain airbags in this car? It'll cost $300 per car but save 0.03 lives per year.
 
I disagree. I think as long as you have multiple providers of a service and the consumer is price sensitive, there is incentive to compete on price and over time prices should fall to approximate cost plus a reasonable profit................


Well, that is the System we currently have and it's not working...... Otherwise we would not even be discussing it.
 
My DW has to get regular bloodwork when she sees her specialist.

Code:
2018 examples
Billed        Plan Pays
$623.97        $54.52
$1,070.31    $96.96
$193.15        $21.90
$755.12        $61.87

Of all the covered items my IC pays, the labwork is also the one the plan pays the least (and the provider takes the biggest write-down/discount). In my case, the plan pays only 9% of the nearly $2k the lab charges, less than the ~15% your plan pays. My copay is $50 (2 visits x $25), so it isn't like I am shelling any meaningful difference.
 
In the few medical situations where we do have price transparency and true customer pay (e.g. LASIK eye surgery, most cosmetic surgery, etc) costs have not increased nearly as much as in the rest of the the medical system, and patients are generally quite happy with the promptness and quality of care. And there are some surgical clinics that do not accept insurance and that have good outcomes and much lower total prices. But these situations are rather unique--they tend to be discrete, one-time, non-urgent medical requirements.

I'm less optimistic that this would work for even a very savvy consumer who had a cancer diagnosis, chronic heart or liver disease, etc. And this is where a lot of our spending goes. I think it might be better if there was a more free market for people to choose the overall "agent" for their health care (a PPO insurer, an HMO, an accountable care organization (ACO), etc). So, you would shop for the "agent", they would shop for (or directly provide) the care.

How would this be different from today's insurance? It seems to me that, certainly in the Marketplace programs, insurers now have what amounts to a "cost plus" contract. There's little incentive to reduce spending on medical services if your company gets to keep 20% above whatever is spent. To the contrary--more spending means that the allowable 20% increases. The current level of subsidies for Marketplace insurance premiums does serve to reduce downward pressure on premiums.


The cost of medical care will continue to rise as long as larger amounts of corporate, individual, and government funds are pumped into the system. We have a similar situation in higher education--it is more clear in that case that there's no objective reason that the cost of educating a college student should be higher each year, but various policies make easy money available, so costs rise.

Three important roles government could play (IMO):
1) Create standardized coverages and descriptions. This was done in the case of Medicare supplement insurance, and significantly benefited consumers. Insurers/providers >hate< transparency and standardization, consumers benefit from it. It makes price comparisons simple and turns these services into commodities. This would not prohibit providers from throwing extras into their "purple" package, but all purple plans would have basic attributes in common.

2) Collect and make usable by consumers health care/provider outcome information and patient satisfaction information. This is critical information consumers need to choose well, and to build a functioning free market. If people in a region can see that those insured by Helping Hand insurance hate their plans, or that they wait 10 months for a knee replacement, then they may be more likely to choose a different "agent".

3) Discontinue policies that encourage a linkages between employment and health care. (This could be controversial :))
Both the analysis and the recommendations make sense.
 
It's ironic that more then a few people would have a much better quality end of life without insurance and aggressive medical treatment. That's an individual decision but I know which one I would choose.
Everyone thinks they know what they would choose until it actually happens to them.
 
I disagree. I think as long as you have multiple providers of a service and the consumer is price sensitive, there is incentive to compete on price and over time prices should fall to approximate cost plus a reasonable profit.
I think you'll agree there's more to a functional market than that. Consumers have to be able to make a rational estimate of the quality and availability of the services from the various sellers (very hard right now with health care.). They need information to even choose which services to buy (easy if it is "replace my knee joint," harder if it is "eliminate my cancer "). Competition based on best value is also always hampered if time is limited.
I do think that increasing transparency on available options, their cost, and better info on expected outcomes would help lower the cost of health care if patients also were price sensitive. But for a market and pricing signals to work well, they all have to be present.
The issue of how these costs are to be paid is also inter-related.
I'd guess even people with a lot of money would be disinclined to spend it on extreme one-in-a-million end-of-life treatments if it means they'll be spending money that their spouse and kids need. But if unknown others are paying, they'd likely be willing to turn on the money tap and roll the dice If the docs and medical providers make more as a result, I can see some perverse incentives regarding information flow.
 
Last edited:
The current level of subsidies for Marketplace insurance premiums does serve to reduce downward pressure on premiums.

The Marketplace effectively eliminates downward pressure on premiums. The Premium Tax Credits (AKA subsidies) are based on a percentage of modified AGI. If the premiums go up, the subsidies go up, and the individual pays the same. It's only the silly taxpayers that pay more. :(
 
Everyone thinks they know what they would choose until it actually happens to them.

It's a scary decision but I've seen enough to think I'd be pretty steadfast. I've seen families where the ill person kept pursuing treatments to please their family.
 
For a country that claims to put so much value on human life, what is the excuse for having 28m people or so without any healthcare insurance, let alone affordable?
 
Well, that is the System we currently have and it's not working...... Otherwise we would not even be discussing it.

Well, I don't think the system we have is quite as free market as I described. If it were more like buying hamburgers, we would not have:

1. A significant issue with hamburger malpractice.
2. Tax deductible cheese.
3. Any connection between Burger King and your job.
4. Having to go to the McDonalds network.
5. Monthly hamburger premiums and copays and coinsurance and deductibles.
6. Hamburgercare and Hamburgeraid.
7. People working at Wendy's who take care of the back office billing and insurance claims.
8. etc.

(Yes, hamburgers are simpler and cheaper than medical care. I know.)
 
Well, I don't think the system we have is quite as free market as I described. If it were more like buying hamburgers, we would not have:

1. A significant issue with hamburger malpractice.
2. Tax deductible cheese.
3. Any connection between Burger King and your job.
4. Having to go to the McDonalds network.
5. Monthly hamburger premiums and copays and coinsurance and deductibles.
6. Hamburgercare and Hamburgeraid.
7. People working at Wendy's who take care of the back office billing and insurance claims.
8. etc.

(Yes, hamburgers are simpler and cheaper than medical care. I know.)
And........

The price of hamburgers would not be a secret! [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23]
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom