How Coronavirus Infected Some, but Not All, in a Restaurant

[sengsational]

Interesting thought. Spread them out on the ceiling and toast the virus. Are they safe for the guinea pigs basking in the glow?

What I read is that the UV-C doesn't even penetrate the tear layer of the human eye. But a virus in aerosol form is toast.

 

[donheff]

What I read is that the UV-C doesn't even penetrate the tear layer of the human eye. But a virus in aerosol form is toast.

I have read that they work well on surfaces. If they aren't harmful with prolonged exposure who knows, maybe it would work. Stock buying opportunity? Who will be big manufacturers that can ramp up?

 

[harley]

Prediction: restaurants will lure customers back by installing UV-C emitters.

So, Hooters bar, restaurant, and tanning salon?

 

[Lewis Clark]

UV-A and UV-B radiation from the sun cause most of our sunburns, but we can protect ourselves with clothing and sunscreen.

UV-C radiation from the sun is largely blocked by the ozone in the stratosphere, but carries more energy than UV-A and UV-B radiation, so it is potentially more harmful. It will be interesting to see how UV-C emitters could be used safely in public places.

 

[gauss]

Restaurants and taverns have been around for thousands of years and have survived wars, pandemics, natural disasters, and everything man and nature has thrown at them. The most likely outcome IMHO is many existing restaurants will fail, and they will be replaced by others that figure out how to do business with this new challenge. COVID will remind us once again just how innovative and creative we are.

+1 There will be continued demand for traditional restaurants IMHO especially among the younger folk.

On the other hand, I would not want to be a Bill Knapp's franchise holder going forward if any still exist.

-gauss

 

[BeachOrCity]

Restaurants and taverns have been around for thousands of years and have survived wars, pandemics, natural disasters, and everything man and nature has thrown at them. The most likely outcome IMHO is many existing restaurants will fail, and they will be replaced by others that figure out how to do business with this new challenge. COVID will remind us once again just how innovative and creative we are.

I agree that restaurants will come roaring back at some point. But in the meantime the owners and employees will have completely lost their livelihoods many worked a lifetime to build. When they come roaring back, mostly others will reap the benefits, not the ones who lost everything to this disaster. As those who lost everything will not have the capital to rebuild or will have moved on.

Very sad

 

[camfused]

re: UV-C. What about those of us that are very susceptible to skin cancer?

 

[Helen]

I agree that restaurants will come roaring back at some point. But in the meantime the owners and employees will have completely lost their livelihoods many worked a lifetime to build. When they come roaring back, mostly others will reap the benefits, not the ones who lost everything to this disaster. As those who lost everything will not have the capital to rebuild or will have moved on.

Very sad

I was thinking about this too. It seems like a lot of small business owners pour a lot of their profits into growing the business with the idea of selling the business eventually and retiring or starting a new business. They may be left with very little. I can't imagine there will be many people looking to buy a restaurant, gym or small retail store in the near future.

 

[copyright1997reloaded]

re: UV-C. What about those of us that are very susceptible to skin cancer?

You will die. Haven't you heard, the only thing that matters is stopping covid19? (Sorry, I am being sarcastic here.) On a somewhat more serious note we are seeing in real time many examples of the "law of unintended consequences". The UV-C source cannot be exposed to humans (e.g. damage to corona in eye).

I have a small UV-C light enclosed in an air filter. I've been meaning to re-engineer it to be a project box kinda thing that I can put my phone/iPad in to be cleaned of potential viruses on the devices. I haven't gotten to this due to school related work (less than a month to go for the classes I am teaching).

 

[cashbalancetrouble]

I made a box lined with reflective foam insulation that I had to use these HVAC bulbs. I put cookie racks inside to allow light to hit all sides of what I put inside. I do our masks and mail and small boxes. I also purchased UVC protection glasses. Spent about $80 for two lights etc using bulbs I had.

 

[Ready]

With China beginning to reopen, how are they addressing dining in restaurants?

 

[Midpack]

With China beginning to reopen, how are they addressing dining in restaurants?

Sounds pretty chaotic still (aka inconclusive), and even restaurants that are open aren't seeing customers flocking in.

https://www.eater.com/2020/3/24/21191278/china-beijing-coronavirus-future-of-restaurants

Some of the predictions from US restaurant owners reflect substantial changes that will last quite a while, some maybe permanent.

https://www.foodandwine.com/fwpro/restaurants-after-covid19-coronavirus-chef-predictions

We spoke with dozens of chefs and restaurant owners about what comes next. Thoughts ranged from the practical—disposable menus, added cleaning protocols, increased takeout options—to bigger picture revisions, like enhanced safety nets for restaurant workers and broader acceptance of no-tipping policies. Jon Nodler, chef and co-owner of Cadence, Food & Wine’s Best New Restaurant of 2019, is among those who hopes the crisis sparks an industry-wide change.

“We can't keep running this traditional model, the food and labor costs, and the pressure put on people,” he says. “I hope that restaurant owners, and everyone working in restaurants, is using this as a time to evaluate how to come back to it.”

[Broadly (some predictable, some not?)]

• Enhanced sanitary measures and safety protocols
• Emptier dining rooms
• More no-tipping policies
• Increased demand for transparency and fairness
• Renewed appreciation for restaurants
• More protections for workers
• Increased efficiency
• More virtual experiences
• Devastating closures
• Continued rise of take-out and online ordering
• The rise of ghost restaurants
• More mental health services
• Diversification of offerings
• Shifts in real estate strategy
• Simpler menus
• More zero-waste kitchens
• More local sourcing
• More tech solutions
• More foods you can't make at home
• Literally who knows

 

[sengsational]

re: UV-C. What about those of us that are very susceptible to skin cancer?

In the wavelengths that are being proposed to deactivate aerosol virus, it should have zero effect on skin cancer. As mentioned, UV A and UV B penetrate deeply into human skin and cause damage. UV C does not penetrate into the skin. If you find something (a reliable source) that says that UV C can get past even one human cell thickness, I'd be very surprised and would like to review that data.

 

[Ready]

The one thing that is unique to restaurants which really adds to the overall burden for them is that it’s virtually the only type of business where you can’t ask your customers to wear a mask. Unless we can figure out how to eat with a mask over our mouths. But that’s probably not very likely to happen.

 

[Midpack]

The one thing that is unique to restaurants which really adds to the overall burden for them is that it’s virtually the only type of business where you can’t ask your customers to wear a mask. Unless we can figure out how to eat with a mask over our mouths. But that’s probably not very likely to happen.

There are pics of people wearing masks in restaurants right now in China, they just lower them when they're actually eating or drinking. Obviously that won't fly with everyone, some might accept it. Presumably servers and other restaurant employees will wear masks most if not all the time - servers have a higher exposure than anyone else in a restaurant including customers.

 

[Ready]

There are pics of people wearing masks in restaurants right now in China, they just lower them when they're actually eating or drinking. Obviously that won't fly with everyone, some might accept it. Presumably servers and other restaurant employees will wear masks most if not all the time - servers have a higher exposure than anyone else in a restaurant including customers.

We will see. I’d have to be pretty desperate to want to go to a restaurant with a mask on and have to keep removing it every time I want to take a bite of food. And how do you keep moving the mask up and down without possibly contaminating your hands by touching the mask? We were told that once you put your mask on you are not supposed to touch it until you are ready to completely remove it from your face and then dispose of it or sanitize it.

 

[audreyh1]

- servers have a higher exposure than anyone else in a restaurant including customers.

Yeah, it was two regular servers of the initial Covid-19 person on the Grand Princess who contracted it, and it spread among many of the crew, and then ready to infect the next round of passengers.

Of course they were waiting on the same person day after day, multiple meals, and the same repeated exposure is not likely in a restaurant except for maybe a regular breakfast crowd.

 

[W2R]

We miss eating out, the pleasant atmosphere, and the casual banter back and forth with the young wait staff at our usual restaurant. They are nice people. In recent weeks we sometimes get take-out. They wave at us through the glass of both our closed car window and the restaurant window, with masks on, and it is nice to see that at least some of them are still able to work.

Who knows what the future brings. We will wait at least until the restaurants are full of people for a couple of weeks before we even think of going back and eating inside. (That will probably be months from now). That way we can see if those who do that are getting sick. I doubt anyone would wear a mask while eating, but we'll get that figured out before we go.

 

[Midpack]

Who knows what the future brings. We will wait at least until the restaurants are full of people for a couple of weeks before we even think of going back and eating inside. (That will probably be months from now). That way we can see if those who do that are getting sick. I doubt anyone would wear a mask while eating, but we'll get that figured out before we go.

Not to be argumentative but waiting a few weeks won’t “guarantee future results” to borrow a phrase. Even if everyone is negative for coronavirus one day, anyone (without immunity) can get infected at any time in the weeks/months/years ahead, and the cleanliness, distancing and other practices could greatly differentiate one restaurant from another. It’s a tough call from a fellow restaurant fan. I’m not sure what we’ll do, but we won’t be the first ones back either.

I’ve thought about cleaning tables between customers and decided I’d want to see it disinfected or clean it myself versus trusting it was done before I sat down. But restaurants may have a better idea.

 

[steelyman]

We miss eating out, the pleasant atmosphere, and the casual banter back and forth with the young wait staff at our usual restaurant.

Don’t forget the pleasure of stopping by a local saloon for banter and catch-up over a few. On the plus side, a face mask should lessen the chance of getting a shot glass stuck in your throat.

 

[Midpack]

Don’t forget the pleasure of stopping by a local saloon for banter and catch-up over a few. On the plus side, a face mask should lessen the chance of getting a shot glass stuck in your throat.

We’ve moved away, but my former favorite (weekly) microbrew pub is closed. I know the owner well, and I’m worried she won’t survive this.

 

[copyright1997reloaded]

Can't find the exit strategy thread, so posting this here. Scott Gottlieb just tweeted:

New: Study of 318 outbreaks in China found transmission occurred out-of-doors in only one, involving just 2 cases. Most occurred in home or public transport. Raises key chance for states to move services outdoors (religious, gym classes, restaurants, etc).

Source for data for his tweet: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.04.20053058v1

So maybe there is hope for some outdoor style dining?

 

[martyp]

This is a very interesting case study from China but note that it is not a peer reviewed journal article. The main piece of missing information is sufficient assurances that nobody from tables B and C could have caught the virus prior to going to the restaurant as appears to be the case for person A1. However, this story is completely consistent with many other events sparked by asymptomatic transmission. The basic formula is:

1) A lot of people. The more people the more chance that at least one person brought the infection with them.
2) A confined space. This would be a space where the air change with the outdoors is minimal. This allows the aerosols from and infected person to accumulate in the room.
3) Socializing. People emit aerosols simply by talking. However, the louder you speak the more aerosols you emit. Laughing, shouting, talking loudly, singing are all going to increase the amount of aerosols someone emits. All these behaviors are common in social and sporting events.
4) Time. The longer you are exposed to contaminated air the more virus laden aerosols you will inhale. Your risks appear to become finite with an hour of constant exposure.

 

[martyp]

I think restaurants are going to have a hard time re-opening under social distancing guidelines. A chain restaurant, like Applebees, tries to get a lot of people in and turn them over. A fine dining restaurant tries to get you in and get you to stay for hours. Restaurants typically operate on very low profit margins even given the way they packed people in and encouraged customer turnover. It is hard to see how they can make a profit at half capacity. Regardless of people trying to wear masks in China, you cannot eat with a mask.

 

[Nemo2]

.....you cannot eat with a mask.

The 'edible mask' market is wide open for startups.