Waiting on Tesla Battery Day News Today

[MRG]

I realize we've gotten off track from the original subject somewhat. But, it's kinda fun talking about this stuff. I'm just wondering what folks think about the relative costs of "travel" when they must use the super-chargers available along the main thoroughfares. I have no idea what current costs are.

I mentioned that my son has a Tesla (mod. 3). He bought it and moved to the Islands, believing he would be able to keep the battery charged with solar energy. He DID use his solar system to charge the car, but it was frequently not enough - don't know if the system was too small, whether it wouldn't charge fast enough (I assume it was 115 or 230 - not a supercharger set up.) SO he often used the available superchargers on the Island. He indicated it cost about 13 cents per mile to charge. Gas at the time was about $3.50. Let's use 25 mpg though a car the size of a mod. 3 should get 30+ I would guess. That would be about 14 cents per mile. SO, just for sake of argument, what do superchargers in the "electric corridor" cost per mile? No idea myself, but someone here knows.

I realize there are plusses and minuses to cost-per-mile, EV vs ICE. But what is the experience of EV owners when using superchargers for cost per mile for the fuel only? Just curious and so YMMV.

I charge at home for the most part. My first 1000 miles cost $14.50 in electric @6 cents per KWH. The closest supercharger is 30 cents per KWH. I figure it's about like 2.25 dollar gas to purchase fast charging.

Of course you can travel very far on free juice if you're patient. Looking at an application like plugshare can be enlightening.

 

[pj.mask]

I couldn't disagree more.



The limiting factor isn't the batteries, it's the grid. I work for an electric utility and just chuckle when people talk about 500kw, 750kw, or even 1MW chargers and how they will solve the charging problems.



Even the largest cities electrical grids can't handle those kind of loads popping up in random areas and for random amounts of time. If they started TODAY in preparation for those kind of loads, even in tiny amounts, it would take years and insane amounts of money to be able to handle those load profiles.



Its not a case of having the technology available, tossing up a charger and plugging it into the nearest transformer...we are talking about a complete redesign of the grid and system wide overhauls, not to mention that the demand charges of those kind of charges would require 24/7 use to make it even close to financially viable, if at all.

If you really look into what Tesla has done and planned, you can see this won’t be an issue. They can install their battery storage on site so the power grid gets a constant draw and the large power swings are managed with the battery packs.

Charging speed does not change the cumulative power needs, just instantaneous.

Here is a link: https://www.google.com/amp/s/electr...er-station-las-vegas-solar-power-battery/amp/

 

[NW-Bound]

As one of our resident glass-half-empty kind of posters, some random thoughts come to mind based on the last few posts:

How DO we supply EVs with juice when they constitute 20% of our vehicles instead of 2%? Really, how do we generate the extra electricity? How do we deliver it to (and through) the grid? How do we wire all the houses OR supercharger stations? On and on?

I usually go to Costco Gas on Alakawa St. I do this because gas is always at least 30 cents cheaper than anywhere else on the Island. Often, the spread is greater. When sharp changes in oil prices occur, the spread can reach a dollar per gallon for a week or two. BUT every time I go, my heart sinks. The lot is virtually always full. I've waited just to pull off the street into the parking lot. Then, there are long lines to the pumps. I always figure it will take an hour. Amazingly, I don't think I've ever spent more than 15 minutes from entering the line to exiting the pumps! They have it down to a science! What would the equivalent Supercharger station look like? How long would it take to "fuel" a lot full of "thirsty" EVs (SWAG, Costco Alakawa lot must hold 130 cars and has (I think) 36 pumps.)

My original thinking was that fueling EVs would be mostly from home solar systems. My son ably demonstrated that even a committed DIYer couldn't actually make that happen consistently.

How many solar panels WOULD it take (say, all day at w*rk, the mall, or in your garage) to charge an EV for 12,000 miles/365 days = 33 miles per day? Oh, and since the sun is blocked X% per day...

Don't get me back on range anxiety...

I could go on, but these questions have most likely been asked/answered before. I'm NOT negative on EVs. I think the technology is cool and the cars can be practical and fun. Enjoyed the heck out of riding in son's Mod. 3 (once I got in, that is - but that's another story.) I just can't see how a true revolution is possible. Just sayin', so YMMV.

I am not an EV owner, but have spent a lot of time monitoring and tweaking my DIY solar storage system, so can venture an answer to your question.

Assuming that your son is an average driver (not with a lead foot), then for 33 miles/day, he needs 33 mi/day x 300 Wh/mi =9.9 kWh/day. Let's call it 10 kWh/day.

In order to generate the above juice in Hawaii in December, he needs 2.5 kW worth of PV panels of the monocrystalline type. The ones I have are quite common and rated at 320 W a piece. So, that's 8 solar panels at the also common size of roughly 64" x 41". That's a total area of 150 sq.ft. or so.

That's not too bad, but until you try to do it in a suburban area, you will not appreciate how hard it is to find a spot that is not blocked by your own trees, your own house structure, your neighbor's houses, your neighbor's trees. And the PV panels must also have the right orientation (facing south).

For me, that only spot in my property is my driveway. I don't think the city and my neighbors care to see a PV canopy above my driveway. And so, I had to mount the array in the backyard, in the best suboptimal place I could find, and lost 10% to 25% of the potential output depending on the time of year.


PS. I forgot to add that the 10 kWh/day output in December is the average. Some days you get more, some days you get less. You will need some kind of storage to store the juice for rainy days. And you will need some storage anyway, because when you take your car out for an errand, where does that juice go, unless you have a grid-tied system and dump it into the grid?

 

[Zathras]

As one of our resident glass-half-empty kind of posters, some random thoughts come to mind based on the last few posts:

How DO we supply EVs with juice when they constitute 20% of our vehicles instead of 2%? Really, how do we generate the extra electricity? How do we deliver it to (and through) the grid? How do we wire all the houses OR supercharger stations? On and on?

I usually go to Costco Gas on Alakawa St. I do this because gas is always at least 30 cents cheaper than anywhere else on the Island. Often, the spread is greater. When sharp changes in oil prices occur, the spread can reach a dollar per gallon for a week or two. BUT every time I go, my heart sinks. The lot is virtually always full. I've waited just to pull off the street into the parking lot. Then, there are long lines to the pumps. I always figure it will take an hour. Amazingly, I don't think I've ever spent more than 15 minutes from entering the line to exiting the pumps! They have it down to a science! What would the equivalent Supercharger station look like? How long would it take to "fuel" a lot full of "thirsty" EVs (SWAG, Costco Alakawa lot must hold 130 cars and has (I think) 36 pumps.)

My original thinking was that fueling EVs would be mostly from home solar systems. My son ably demonstrated that even a committed DIYer couldn't actually make that happen consistently.

How many solar panels WOULD it take (say, all day at w*rk, the mall, or in your garage) to charge an EV for 12,000 miles/365 days = 33 miles per day? Oh, and since the sun is blocked X% per day...

Don't get me back on range anxiety...

I could go on, but these questions have most likely been asked/answered before. I'm NOT negative on EVs. I think the technology is cool and the cars can be practical and fun. Enjoyed the heck out of riding in son's Mod. 3 (once I got in, that is - but that's another story.) I just can't see how a true revolution is possible. Just sayin', so YMMV.

Study’s have been done that indicate we have enough electricity capacity TODAY for a well managed EV fleet.
By well managed, I mean charging is done in off peak hours, overnight for example. We have a huge unused capacity at night. Utilities would love to be able to sell more power at night. Heck, Texas gives it away for free.

In our personal case, we charge off solar. I know this doesn’t work for everyone, but for many it can if they so choose.
As I don’t drive 300 miles every day, I charge only when our solar produces more electricity than our house uses. This provides more than enough electricity to fully charge my car. I also have battery backup, if needed.

Our power grid desperately needs updating, with or without EVs. EVs are not going to become 100% of the market overnight. As such, we have time to upgrade the grid gradually.

To your question about how many panels it would take to provide the energy needed for 33 miles/day... That would be 6-10kWh per day of production.
As a very rough estimate, that is 4-6 panels.

 

[MRG]

I am not an EV owner, but have spent a lot of time monitoring and tweaking my DIY solar storage system, so can venture an answer to your question.

Assuming that your son is an average driver (not with a lead foot), then for 33 miles/day, he needs 33 mi/day x 300 Wh/mi =9.9 kWh/day. Let's call it 10 kWh/day.

In order to generate the above juice in Hawaii in December, he needs 2.5 kW worth of PV panels of the monocrystalline type. The ones I have are quite common and rated at 320 W a piece. So, that's 8 solar panels at the also common size of roughly 64" x 41". That's a total area of 150 sq.ft. or so.

That's not too bad, but until you try to do it in a suburban area, you will not appreciate how hard it is to find a spot that is not blocked by your own trees, your own house structure, your neighbor's houses, your neighbor's trees. And the PV panels must also have the right orientation (facing south).

For me, that only spot in my property is my driveway. I don't think the city and my neighbors care to see a PV canopy above my driveway. And so, I had to mount the array in the backyard, in the best suboptimal place I could find, and lost 10% to 25% of the potential output depending on the time of year.


PS. I forgot to add that the 10 kWh/day output in December is the average. Some days you get more, some days you get less. You will need some kind of storage to store the juice for rainy days. And you will need some storage anyway, because when you take your car out for an errand, where does that juice go, unless you have a grid-tied system and dump it into the grid?

Only comment is at 300 wh/mi you won't be driving very long, the popo will remove your license! My last 2800 miles average 234wh/mile in a performance Y. That still includes many 3.5 second 0-60 blasts and a few people who needed passed in the mountains.[emoji56]

 

[Chuckanut]

Is waiting for a SuperCharger really a problem? So far I have not seen much to support that, but I must admit I hardly have my finger on the pulse of EV ownership.

I suppose Tesla could charge the wait fee on a sliding scale: $1/min for the first 5 minutes, $4 for minutes 5+ to 9. $10 for 10-15, $25/min for 15+ minutes.

Or Tesla could use the doubling method: The first 5 wait minutes no charge. One more minute $1, a second extra minute $2 for a total of $3, the third extra minute $4 for a total of $7 .... and so on. Even Jeff Bezos could be bankrupted with that method. Math is fun.

On a more serious note: I don't think Mr. Musk is the type to let a few selfish people tie up the Superchargers and therefore lessen the appeal of his product.

 

[NW-Bound]

Only comment is at 300 wh/mi you won't be driving very long, the popo will remove your license! My last 2800 miles average 234wh/mile in a performance Y. That still includes many 3.5 second 0-60 blasts and a few people who needed passed in the mountains.[emoji56]

OK, I can't argue with an actual Tesla owner.

Not owning an EV, I had to look to the Web for an answer, and I recall seeing numbers as high as 330 Wh/mi for a generic EV when I was curious many years ago. The technology no doubts has improved since.

But then, right before I made the above post, I asked Google again, and its answer was this (I found it again).

... 5,194.67 kWh were pumped into the Model 3, enabling 15,123 miles for an efficiency of 2.91 mi/kWh or 343.5 watt-hours per mile.

I tracked down the above info that Google gave me, and it came from actual data posted by a Tesla owner to Reddit, which then got shared in an article on cleantechnica.com. This Tesla owner lived in Thousand Oaks, CA, and carefully documented his usage over a 13-month period, and published his spreadsheet to Reddit.

Many people commented that his 343.5 Wh/mi is high. Perhaps running the AC hurts his mileage. It got to 120+ in Thousand Oaks last month!

For Koolau's son who lives in Hawaii, his number is probably a lot better than that of the poor Californian who gets stuck daily in rush hour, crawling along at 5 mph, AC running full blast.

Ref: https://cleantechnica.com/2019/08/1...Wh were pumped into,343.5 watt-hours per mile.

 

[KarlH]

How many solar panels WOULD it take (say, all day at w*rk, the mall, or in your garage) to charge an EV for 12,000 miles/365 days = 33 miles per day? Oh, and since the sun is blocked X% per day...

We bought our Leaf EV as we were scheduling the installation of our solar array containing 34 panels (in IL). After installation was complete we bought our Model 3. As our inverter is also the car charger, we have been able to monitor charging on both cars as well as electric production from the solar array. I can say that our system has produced in excess of all car charging, and reduced our electric bill by around 30%. We were orginally commuting around 120 miles per day, but this has been reduced since my ER.

So in our case, our 34 panel array has produced enough energy to power both our our cars and reduce our electric bills. Overall, I believe the savings in fuel costs on todays prices would cover the out of pocket costs of the solar system in a little over 4 years. The system can charge directly from the solar to the car, but I imagine it would be much slower.

Overall, like others have said we charge our cars at home 98% of the time, but most of the time our solar system is putting electricity back into the grid. We take advantage of the free chargers at the mall and grocery store, but our solar system is providing energy to the same grid. As we move towards a greener economy, it looks like EVs may eventually be putting energy back into the grid through 2 way charger inverters, and I'm totally OK with this. I am told that our leaf can power a home for several days and would love to be able to use the cars as a powerwall, because each one basically is.

 

[Zathras]

....
Many people commented that his 343.5 Wh/mi is high. Perhaps running the AC hurts his mileage. It got to 120+ in Thousand Oaks last month!...

AC is pretty efficient, I doubt it has as much impact as other factors.
The biggest factors are the same that effect gas efficiency; wheel size, speed, short trips, wind resistance.
In colder climates, heat also has a large impact.
In our cases, our Model Ys average about 250 & 275 Wh/m.

 

[pj.mask]

Many of the early adopters were drawn by performance. 40k for a nice corolla isn’t a good deal but when you say it goes 0-60 in 3? Seconds that changes things.
It wouldn’t surprise me if consumption varies a lot between users. From some research, the EPA consumption numbers and formula should be pretty spot on.

Edit- just wanted to say I don’t intend to upset anyone. I look at cars as a commodity and next car (baring something MAJOR will be a cybertruck)

 

[Koolau]

I charge at home for the most part. My first 1000 miles cost $14.50 in electric @6 cents per KWH. The closest supercharger is 30 cents per KWH. I figure it's about like 2.25 dollar gas to purchase fast charging.

Of course you can travel very far on free juice if you're patient. Looking at an application like plugshare can be enlightening.

I don't know what son's cost per KWH was. He just said it cost about 14 cents a mile at the supercharger. Not sure what electricity costs on Big Island, but it's around 30 cents a KWH here on Oahu.

I think one of the problems son had was that he had to travel during peak (home - solar panel) charging hours. He had a bit of battery back up - but I think it was just to keep the lights and TV on at night - not to charge the Mod. 3. Son was in the unenviable position of needing to w*rk for a living. We FIRE'd folk can probably charge when the sun shines, but son "had to make hay" while the sun shone. YMMV

 

[Koolau]

I am not an EV owner, but have spent a lot of time monitoring and tweaking my DIY solar storage system, so can venture an answer to your question.

Assuming that your son is an average driver (not with a lead foot), then for 33 miles/day, he needs 33 mi/day x 300 Wh/mi =9.9 kWh/day. Let's call it 10 kWh/day.

In order to generate the above juice in Hawaii in December, he needs 2.5 kW worth of PV panels of the monocrystalline type. The ones I have are quite common and rated at 320 W a piece. So, that's 8 solar panels at the also common size of roughly 64" x 41". That's a total area of 150 sq.ft. or so.

That's not too bad, but until you try to do it in a suburban area, you will not appreciate how hard it is to find a spot that is not blocked by your own trees, your own house structure, your neighbor's houses, your neighbor's trees. And the PV panels must also have the right orientation (facing south).

For me, that only spot in my property is my driveway. I don't think the city and my neighbors care to see a PV canopy above my driveway. And so, I had to mount the array in the backyard, in the best suboptimal place I could find, and lost 10% to 25% of the potential output depending on the time of year.


PS. I forgot to add that the 10 kWh/day output in December is the average. Some days you get more, some days you get less. You will need some kind of storage to store the juice for rainy days. And you will need some storage anyway, because when you take your car out for an errand, where does that juice go, unless you have a grid-tied system and dump it into the grid?

Thanks for the info. Unfortunately, son never really went over his situation except to say (in effect) it wasn't working out the way he had hoped. He has since moved to the mainland. I haven't asked him how he's now charging, but I know electricity rates are much lower where he lives (where he grew up with me.)

Heh, heh, I probably shouldn't have mentioned 33 mi/day because I think son had nearly a 33 mile round trip most days just to go into Hilo to do his w*rk. My gut tells me son never had a chance for his solar system to work, based on his travel patterns. Only a huge battery back up would have worked I think. He probably needed more panels as well. YMMV

 

[Koolau]

Study’s have been done that indicate we have enough electricity capacity TODAY for a well managed EV fleet.
By well managed, I mean charging is done in off peak hours, overnight for example. We have a huge unused capacity at night. Utilities would love to be able to sell more power at night. Heck, Texas gives it away for free.

In our personal case, we charge off solar. I know this doesn’t work for everyone, but for many it can if they so choose.
As I don’t drive 300 miles every day, I charge only when our solar produces more electricity than our house uses. This provides more than enough electricity to fully charge my car. I also have battery backup, if needed.

Our power grid desperately needs updating, with or without EVs. EVs are not going to become 100% of the market overnight. As such, we have time to upgrade the grid gradually.

To your question about how many panels it would take to provide the energy needed for 33 miles/day... That would be 6-10kWh per day of production.
As a very rough estimate, that is 4-6 panels.

Thanks for the info. I agree that, with proper integration, we could easily manage all the EVs we have now. Yet the state with the most EVs is having brown outs, so they apparently are not managing well enough.

I think my concern is that we only have 2% EVs now and we have issues. If we get to 20% EVs, we will have even more issues. Replacing roughly 80 million gallons of gas per day with equivalent electricity will be problematic. Naturally, YMMV.

 

[Koolau]

We bought our Leaf EV as we were scheduling the installation of our solar array containing 34 panels (in IL). After installation was complete we bought our Model 3. As our inverter is also the car charger, we have been able to monitor charging on both cars as well as electric production from the solar array. I can say that our system has produced in excess of all car charging, and reduced our electric bill by around 30%. We were orginally commuting around 120 miles per day, but this has been reduced since my ER.

So in our case, our 34 panel array has produced enough energy to power both our our cars and reduce our electric bills. Overall, I believe the savings in fuel costs on todays prices would cover the out of pocket costs of the solar system in a little over 4 years. The system can charge directly from the solar to the car, but I imagine it would be much slower.

Overall, like others have said we charge our cars at home 98% of the time, but most of the time our solar system is putting electricity back into the grid. We take advantage of the free chargers at the mall and grocery store, but our solar system is providing energy to the same grid. As we move towards a greener economy, it looks like EVs may eventually be putting energy back into the grid through 2 way charger inverters, and I'm totally OK with this. I am told that our leaf can power a home for several days and would love to be able to use the cars as a powerwall, because each one basically is.

Thanks! You helped me realize how the time shifting thing can work for those connected to the grid. Son was NOT on the grid (he even had to catch his own water!) So if his car wasn't there when the sun was shining, he didn't charge. You were able to "run the meter backward" when the sun was shining and "run it forward" at night. Way cool! As long as EV load is not too high, this should be able to work. YMMV

 

[Zathras]

Thanks for the info. I agree that, with proper integration, we could easily manage all the EVs we have now. Yet the state with the most EVs is having brown outs, so they apparently are not managing well enough.

I think my concern is that we only have 2% EVs now and we have issues. If we get to 20% EVs, we will have even more issues. Replacing roughly 80 million gallons of gas per day with equivalent electricity will be problematic. Naturally, YMMV.

Norway has a much higher rate of EVs on the road, and no brown outs.
California has also had grid issues long before the modern EVs hit the market.

I agree planning is needed by the utilities, however, attributing the brownouts to EVs is, IMO, way off base.

 

[ERD50]

Thanks! You helped me realize how the time shifting thing can work for those connected to the grid. Son was NOT on the grid ...YMMV

That's a whole different scenario! So yes, he'd need to be home when the sun shines, and have enough panels to get his EV charged.

Yes, he could add batteries at home, but that's an added expense, and remember that there are losses on the way in and the way out of those batteries. If that 'round trip' loss is 20%, you need to generate 25% more electricity at the panels ( it takes 1.25 kWh in * 80% to get 1.00 kWh out)

Norway has a much higher rate of EVs on the road, and no brown outs.
California has also had grid issues long before the modern EVs hit the market.

I agree planning is needed by the utilities, however, attributing the brownouts to EVs is, IMO, way off base.

Norway is a special case with near zero relevance to the US. Norway gets over 95% of its electricity form hydro, something we cannot do in the US. Norway's #1 export is oil, almost all of their production is exported to burn in other people's cars.

Yes, I would not blame EVs for CA's current brown-out/rolling-black-out issues, but adding EV demand to their grid only extend the amount of time/resources required to fix their problems.

-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

Study’s have been done that indicate we have enough electricity capacity TODAY for a well managed EV fleet.
By well managed, I mean charging is done in off peak hours, overnight for example. We have a huge unused capacity at night. Utilities would love to be able to sell more power at night. Heck, Texas gives it away for free.

If the cheap energy at night comes from wind power, it would be a great time to charge EV. Everybody wins.

I wonder how much of the unused capacity at night comes from natural gas and coal plants having to throttle back. If we keep them running at night to charge EVs, that's not the goal of reducing emission.

I am sure there's often excess wind energy at night. This has been publicized. What must be known is how much and how often this occurs. It would not be cool if there's a calm wind night, people wake up in the morning, and find out that they cannot drive to work because their EV did not get charged during the night.

In our personal case, we charge off solar. I know this doesn’t work for everyone, but for many it can if they so choose.
As I don’t drive 300 miles every day, I charge only when our solar produces more electricity than our house uses. This provides more than enough electricity to fully charge my car. I also have battery backup, if needed...

Yes, a retiree has some flexibility that workers do not have about when to drive, and when to charge his EV.

I am expanding my DIY solar system slowly, both on the generation and the storage capacities. However, the need for AC in the summer here is so bad when it gets to 120F that I simply do not have enough room for more PV panels for my peak electric need, let alone supplying juice for a future EV. Yes, I do think I will own an EV before I croak.

When taking a walk around the neighborhood, I often point out to my wife: "Look at that lot. I could have put a ground array of PV panels large enough, along with a bigger bank of lithium battery so that we could be off-grid". Of course, even with that I would still have a small generator handy just in case. Or I could plug into my RV generator.

Note that I have been playing with RE as a hobby, and do not claim any energy credit. I still want to see a payback, but that is a goal to indicate technical success more than a financial goal.

 

[Texas Proud]

Electric Vehicles (EV) have been around since Nikola Tesla was alive. It seems like the money maker of the gas-powered car (ICE) prevailed. We might be at the very beginning of a major change from ICE to EV. It will take time, probably multiple years, but it already started.

IMO, it makes sense to convert to EV and, yes, price is an issue for many people. When Tesla/Elon comes out with the $25,000 EV it will help and it will probably take a few more years beyond that but we are on the way.

Next stop, Mars!!

Price is only one of the drawbacks of an EV.... the time necessary to fill up is a bigger one IMO... plus having to plan your road trip around charging stations instead of where you want to go...


If they got cheap enough along with a cheap fast home charger for the 95% of the time I would use it then maybe...

 

[Zathras]

Price is only one of the drawbacks of an EV.... the time necessary to fill up is a bigger one IMO... plus having to plan your road trip around charging stations instead of where you want to go...


If they got cheap enough along with a cheap fast home charger for the 95% of the time I would use it then maybe...

For some, time to charge will be an obstacle. What was revealed at battery day should help address that.
For those two car households, or people who don’t mind not racing from A to B when taking a trip while driving, EVs work wonderfully today.
The potential market for EVs will grow over time.

 

[NW-Bound]

If you really look into what Tesla has done and planned, you can see this won’t be an issue. They can install their battery storage on site so the power grid gets a constant draw and the large power swings are managed with the battery packs.

Charging speed does not change the cumulative power needs, just instantaneous.

Here is a link: https://www.google.com/amp/s/electr...er-station-las-vegas-solar-power-battery/amp/

The solar panels help, but are they enough?

I counted 12x24 solar panels for each of the 2 canopies. They look like the common-sized 320W panels. That's 12x24x2x320 = 184 kW. Good for supercharging 2 cars at 100 kW a piece in the midday sun, while there are 24 charging stalls.

But hey, in one of the photos, one of the canopies is completely shaded by a nearby building! Man, that's a bad location.

But let's suppose the panels were out in sunlight all day, if they built it out of town. Sunlight data from nrel.gov says that in Las Vegas, these nearly flat-mounted panels will produce as much as 34,600 kWh in the month of June, and as low as 11,700 kWh in the month of December. It could have been higher in December, if the panels were tilted up to match the low sun angle, but you can do that only with a solar farm, not a shade canopy.

If each refueling EV sucks up to fill, say 50% of its 70kWh battery, then these panels could serve only 11 cars per day in December. In June, 33 cars per day.

Yet, Tesla claims to be able to serve 1,500 cars per day with this V3 station. Where's the juice coming from?

 

[NW-Bound]

Norway is a special case with near zero relevance to the US. Norway gets over 95% of its electricity form hydro, something we cannot do in the US. Norway's #1 export is oil, almost all of their production is exported to burn in other people's cars.

Yes, I would not blame EVs for CA's current brown-out/rolling-black-out issues, but adding EV demand to their grid only extend the amount of time/resources required to fix their problems.

-ERD50

Yes, Norway is specially blessed with a lot of hydro power, for a population of only 5.4 million. Its population density is 37/sq.mi., compared to, say England with 1120/sq.mi. It's like Buffalo and nearby towns getting to keep all the Niagara hydro power for themselves.

Even so, as I researched for another previous thread on RE, there were some drought years when they worried about the low level of the reservoirs.

The vagary of renewable energy is something not to ignore. Norway often has enough excess power that it exports a lot to neighbor countries. But in years when the supply runs low, does it keep all for itself and leave the neighbors high and dry?

 

[Koolau]

Norway has a much higher rate of EVs on the road, and no brown outs.
California has also had grid issues long before the modern EVs hit the market.

I agree planning is needed by the utilities, however, attributing the brownouts to EVs is, IMO, way off base.

If I seemed to imply that the current 2% EVs were "the problem" causing Cali's brownouts, I did not intend to. Yes, they might contribute somewhat to the problem but are NOT the cause. BUT if we find ourselves with 20% EVs, THAT will be a problem unless dramatic changes are made in the mean time. As usual, YMMV.

 

[Zathras]

If I seemed to imply that the current 2% EVs were "the problem" causing Cali's brownouts, I did not intend to. Yes, they might contribute somewhat to the problem but are NOT the cause. BUT if we find ourselves with 20% EVs, THAT will be a problem unless dramatic changes are made in the mean time. As usual, YMMV.

My apologies, I misunderstood you. Thank you for the clarification
And to your point, California absolutely must get its act together regarding it's grid.
If they support smart use of EVs, the EVs can actually help them with their grid issues. If they don't, EVs (along with HVAC & other draws) will complicate those issues.

 

[ERD50]

...
And to your point, California absolutely must get its act together regarding it's grid.
If they support smart use of EVs, the EVs can actually help them with their grid issues. If they don't, EVs (along with HVAC & other draws) will complicate those issues.

EV proponents keep bringing this up, but I really don't think it holds water, for a number of reasons:

1) If it is such a great idea, why is it not supported by Tesla EVs today?

2) As long as there are range anxiety issues, people will be resistant to allowing their batteries to be drained very much. That puts a cap on how much average storage is available.

3) Owners will also be concerned about degrading the batteries with daily charge/discharge cycles (possibly alleviated with newer battery designs, but I think we need to be skeptical of promises from Elon).

4) Remember that any storage system has losses. If you want to shift/deliver 10kWh a day, and have an 80% round trip efficiency, you need to generate 12.5kWh to provide that 10kWh. So now we have to generate an added 25% more electricity, and until we have a consistent oversupply of renewables at night, that's going to come from fossil fuel.

5) True that charging at night won't create problems for the infrastructure, since demand is lower at night, but we sill need to generate that electricity.

I had started to put together a spreadsheet to illustrate what the effects might be, and it was interesting to see that CA has the lowest average Electrical household consumption of any state. Which means adding an EV to a home has a larger than average impact. If there were an EV in one of five homes (the 20% number thrown around), at 1,000 miles/month, and 300 wH/miles, it would add over 10% of demand to the CA grid. Since demand is lower at night, let's say half of daytime for EZ math, that means CA would need 30% more production at night (2 units daytime, 1 unit at night. Add 10%, which is 0.3 units to night is 1.3 units, 30% higher). They might have occasional overproduction of wind of a few %, but that's a long way from providing 30% most every night.

I did another search before I went any further and decided to stop there, as Elon seems to agree with me:

https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/23/...ric-vehicle-energy-grid-battery-day-elon-musk

Tesla plans for its future electric vehicles to be able to both suck up power and spit it back out into the grid. Tesla didn’t specify when this capability would be available when CEO Elon Musk made the announcement during Tesla’s much-anticipated Battery Day event in Palo Alto, California.

But instead of hyping up this development, Musk downplayed how useful it would be for the company’s vehicles to be able to connect to the grid. “Vehicle-to-grid sounds good, but I think actually has a much lower utility than people think,” Musk said. He ostensibly wants consumers to continue buying Tesla’s Powerwall batteries for their homes, rather than using its EVs as batteries on wheels. “I think it’s actually going to be better for people’s freedom of action to have a Powerwall and a car,” said Musk.

Tell it to Elon! He wants you to buy a Tesla EV plus a Tesla PowerWall. So no, it doesn't sound like EVs are going to help the grid at all.

-ERD50

 

[Zathras]

It isn't a question of V2G not being supported by Tesla, it is more a question of not being supported by utilities. This tech is allowed in Japan and some companies are building cars to support it.

However, ignoring V2G, an intelligent use of charging of EVs can help the grid.
Just having smart chargers that can vary the rate of charging overnight to smooth out surges will help ease stress on the grid.

Right now, I agree with Elon, and frankly, I have little hope utilities will get their act together in CA in the future.
In other parts of the country we already use on demand for heating water heaters. This is much more basic, but does aid the utilities. Expanding on this idea can help.

PowerWalls are much more useful to the owner, although only slightly useful for the stability of the grid as most PowerWall installations are not allowed to export power to the grid.
The utility sized installations have been hugely helpful and saved lots of money, however that is another topic all together.