The Electric Vehicle Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
ERD50 said:
Same person paying the tax and getting the credit!

-ERD50
Click to expand...

Except that some of us did not even get a credit. We just get to pay the tax. Lucky us. :(

Note: for the record I do not support credits for buying an EV, Hybrid, etc.
 
NW-Bound said:
I believe the 1/2 cost that Musk projects is for the cost of the battery pack as installed in his car. It includes the cost savings due to better packaging, and the redesign of the car structural chassis.

In other words, the cost of the Li-ion cell gets improved, but not by 1/2.


Regarding current cost of batteries, I have not seen anyone selling Li-ion raw cells at the price point of $100/kWh. The current price is about $400/kWh at retail level. I don't know about wholesale prices.


PS. Recently I have seen used and worn out industrial cells selling at $100/kWh. They may look tempting, but as the capacity of these worn out cells is only 1/2 of the rating when new, these old cells weigh 2x and are 2x larger than new cells for the same storage capacity. Actually, the weight and size factors are even worse than 2x, because they are of early types back when the battery technology was not as good as now. I passed.
Click to expand...


Sides from battery day and previous analysts really point to $108/kWh current battery cost for Tesla. I don’t know how accurate that is.
They did say iron battery’s would be significantly cheaper.
 
I don't know the cost of the battery to Tesla, and have been following the prices out on the open market. And of course, I only know about the retail price, which is still around $400/kWh or more for the American consumer. There is a market for the raw cells, as there has been an underground movement of hobbyists and tinkerers who buy cells to build their own DIY solar storage system. RV'ers are also switching to the LiFePO4 battery, which is far superior to the traditional lead-acid golfcart and marine batteries. The only thing holding people back is the cost, but at $100/kWh, LiFePO4 is cheaper than lead-acid batteries in terms of price/performance, and weight too.

I just now went on the alibaba site to price out the common sizes of 100Ah and 280Ah LiFePO4 prismatic cells. I liked what I saw there. Indeed the price has dropped to $100/kWh and below. Of course, that price is FOB China, and does not do me much good.

If I were younger, would look into importing these raw cells, and selling them in the US. Of course, with no stones staying unturned these days, I am sure I am not the 1st one to think of it. The unanswered question to me is why it still costs so much here at the retail level.
 
Last edited:
I've heard something in the range of $150-200 per kWh.

It's come down quite a bit in the last 10 years and there seems to be optimism that they could drive it down further, if only more slowly.

There is money being poured into battery cell research, all these PhDs being hired for this work.
 
NW-Bound said:
Eh, beggars can't be choosy. :cool:

Airbags? What airbags? I forgot to look to see if there was any seat belt, but maybe it would not matter anyway. Heh heh heh...

And here's an even cheaper mini EV that's $930, or $1200 with some lead-acid batteries. He and his friend were impressed with what they got for that money. Heh heh heh...

This guy actually paid $3000 after all shipping and custom charges.


Click to expand...


Hey, remember the above Changli EV that costs $930, plus another $300 for some lead-acid batteries?

They took it to show Sandy Munro. You know Sandy Munro, right?

He was mystified how they could build this cheap car so well for that money. :)

 
Last edited:
Our Bolt is powered by the solar we installed last October (mostly, in a few cases, we charge at night). But having moved from Texas to Nevada, there can be a lot of unused wind capacity in the evening in the wind production areas. For people who work that can be different, but the parking area for the big Patagonia warehouse is covered by solar panels, although this is probably used more to power the warehouse operations since there are at present only a few e-vehicles there (it's on my walk down to the river so I look at it several times a day.

As you note, this is not to suggest there are also a lot of immediate steps for the wildfire problem that is now an emergency given high temps and longer/hotter burn season in the Sierras. A lot of people won't like controlled burns, but that's a given need, although you'll probably have to do that outside the developed areas and rely on clearing/burning the dead beetle ravaged pines closer in. And there are a lot of those, based on my hikes on the Tahoe Rim Trail and other trails in the Reno Sierra area.

But the longer we take to decrease/decarbonize the worse the problem will remain over the next 150 years for grandchildren and great grandchildren. The 1st World will lead and 2nd world will adopt as prices decline, but there is a lot of innovation in China/India and willingness to try solutions on a large scale. China is likely to lead in EV production over the next 10-15 years while we navel-gaze.





ERD50 said:
And I'll say it again. EVs aren't doing much to reduce carbon emissions anyhow. It matters little how 'green' your grid is. EVs are an added demand, and even if your grid is 60% renewable, the grid is utilizing almost all of that renewable, it always gets prioritized as the 'fuel' is free. So to meet extra marginal demand, almost all the time a fossil/nuke plant needs to throttle up to meet the demand, the renewables will already be (mostly) used.

There are occasional exceptions, an over-production of wind at night, but we are nowhere near those being large/common enough to power an EV fleet most of the time. Look at this chart - relative to straight gas engine, a hybrid provides significant improvement in CO2 emissions. An EV on the 'average' grid or on 100% NG (the lowest CO2 fossil fuel) is hardly better than the hybrid. Of course the EV is significantly better when powered 100% from renewables (WWS - Wind, Water, Solar), but as I said, that is a long, long way off (fleet-wide).
Click to expand...
 
TromboneAl said:
Perhaps a dedicated electric vehicle thread would help non EV enthusiasts avoid reading the holier-than-thou posts that EV owners write.

Yes, there are dedicated EV forums, but as with other topics, I've found that members here are both smarter and more even keeled than those on other places in the intergoogle.

Before we got our Tesla, I didn't expect we would make any super long trips because there would be too much charging time required. However, I've learned that supercharging can be very fast. It's fastest when the battery is lower, so by making more stops and charging less at each, you actually get to your destination faster.

Driving to Denver from the coast would require 23 hours of driving and 3 hours of charging. The longest charging stop would be 23 minutes. And charging could happen while eating or stretching legs. Here's what it would look like:

trIH63J.png
Click to expand...



Thanks for starting a thread specific to EV’s. They are gradually becoming more mainstream. Regardless of whether you agree with it or not, governments are providing incentives to buy electric vehicles.

We took delivery of our Model 3 about three weeks before Trombone Al started this thread. I didn’t have enough experience to post. After four long trips I have enough time in seat to give some thoughts. First some background.

We are very careful about major purchases. We don’t buy cars without a lot of thought. During summer of 2019 my DW asked me to find a vehicle to replace our 2005 Mini Cooper S. She had four requirements:

1. No shifting. She was tired of the six speed. We have two other manual transmission vehicles.
2. Four doors. We really need a vehicle that has easy to enter rear seating & cargo space.
3. No more than $50K.
4. Fun to drive.

I started looking. I considered several brands including Volvo & BMW. I started to review the various brands. I quickly eliminated BMW due to reliability & maintenance costs after manufacturer’s warranty expiration. Plus their BEV’s just didn’t fit our needs. Another requirement is advanced safety systems. Tesla’s crash tests are the best.
We like to wear out our cars. For several years I followed articles about hybrids & electric vehicles but had major concerns about how mainstream they were. Chevrolet, Volvo, BMW, VW & a few others sell a good selection. Others talk a lot but have been slow to bring vehicles to market. I eliminated hybrids after a while because of the complexity of operation. We’ve rented a wide mix a cars, SUV’s & vans for extended trips.
I found myself gravitating to BEV’s, which we had no experience with.
I watched a lot of You Tube videos.

Most of the BEV manufacturers except Tesla & Nissan sold limited quantities. Many BEV’s are better suited for urban use. Tesla looked like a good fit because of their larger batteries, advanced battery management system & superior charging network.

We took an extended trip to the midwest and LA then north back to Oregon in September 2019 in another rental. As we drove through some isolated parts of western US I looked at oncoming vehicles & counted BEV’s. I was very surprised how many there were in areas far from major cities. I told my DW on the trip that I was seriously considering a Tesla.
After we returned I set up a test drive. Neither of us had been in a Tesla before. We were floored how enjoyable the car was. The acceleration, handling, safety, technology including frequent OTA downloads, comfortable interior & several other features sold us on the spot. We ordered a Model 3 Long Range AWD immediately after the test drive. We took delivery about two months later, shortly before the federal tax credit expired. There was also a stare rebate for purchasing a BEV. We had never done anything like this before. Although it may seem that we made a sudden decision it really was after considerable research. We agreed to evaluate the Model 3 for six months & sell it if we weren’t happy with it. Two months later we realized we weren’t driving the Mini Cooper & gave it to a relative.

Then COVID happened. Except for a day trip to In N Out in Grants Pass we delayed extended trips until September.

We tried out the supercharger network on that trip & found it easy to use & convenient. My DW doesn’t like complications & the supercharger network is as simple as it could possibly be. It’s much easier/nicer than stopping at gas stations. They are at a mix of locations. Some are at shopping centers, near markets, some at hotels, one in Idaho is at a Visitors Center. Charging does take longer than getting gas, but it is a non issue for us. How many ICE cars can you think of that have Internet access so you can live stream Netflix? Or have arcade games? Trombone Al is right charging is often fast especially when the battery level is low. While it’s great to have the flexibility to go 300 miles it usually isn’t necessary. We break up our route into smaller legs. We drive about 1600 miles in two days to get to our destination. Last October I drove from LA to our home in Oregon in one day. The distance was about 1K miles.

There is some variation in charging speed due to different chargers in the network. The newest chargers are the fastest available in North America. Also, older Models S & X use an older type of battery that charges at a slightly slower rate. Our experience has been very positive.

This vehicle has exceeded our expectations. I’ve read surveys that report that 97% of EV owners won’t go back to ICE vehicles. I’m not surprised.
 
This is suppose to be a big year for EVs with several models expected to launch, hitting the popular CUV form factor and prices below those of Tesla, some even before tax credits, which Tesla no longer has.

Looks like they're scheduling the launches so that they don't launch vs. competitors. Or at least the reviews of these new BEVs seemed designed not to compete with each other.

So a couple of weeks ago, the reviews for the Ford Mach-E Mustang came out. Now it appears we're starting to get reviews of the VW ID.4 SUV.

We should have a lot of reviews and a couple more models by the summer.
 
Girlfriend put in her order for a Model Y a couple days ago. She's been riding in mine for a couple years and converted from ICE.
 
According to the above link you can lease a Chevy Bolt for $283/month with nothing down and no security deposit. That’s a great deal if you can charge at home and don’t need to rely on it for long distance driving.
 
Was reading about the Bolts recently. Because of fires when charging to 100% they had to lower the charge percentage and the total range.
 
homestead said:
Was reading about the Bolts recently. Because of fires when charging to 100% they had to lower the charge percentage and the total range.
Click to expand...

That’s the 2017, 2018, and some 2019 models that are under a recall. There were 5 fires out of 66k cars. The temporary fix is a 5% reduction in the charge level while they work on a permanent fix. Perhaps coincidentally they switched from Korean made batteries to Michigan made batteries sometime in the 2019 model year. They’re LG batteries and LG has had issues in other applications as well. It could get interesting!
 
At least one of our next cars will be an EV, or if my car was totaled tomorrow, I’d buy a Model Y. If the Fed credit is extended to 600,000 I may buy one this year anyway. But I’m anxious all the competitor EV makes/models coming out this year and next. The future looks brighter than ever...
 
Popeye said:
That’s the 2017, 2018, and some 2019 models that are under a recall. There were 5 fires out of 66k cars. The temporary fix is a 5% reduction in the charge level while they work on a permanent fix. Perhaps coincidentally they switched from Korean made batteries to Michigan made batteries sometime in the 2019 model year. They’re LG batteries and LG has had issues in other applications as well. It could get interesting!
Click to expand...
You may have read Hyundai is no longer going to use a software fix to mitigate the fire issues on some of their 2017-19 models, they recently decided to replace the batteries instead at a cost of $900M (split between Hyundai and LG). That may put pressure on GM to do the same with the 2017-19 Bolts.
 
Saw a commercial for Kia Niro EV lease, $3499 down and $199 a month for 24 or 36 months.

Went to the Kia site and put in $1 down and the monthly lease payment is $299.

I'm just finishing a BMW X3 lease in a few months.

The total Kia Niro lease payments would be about half of what I will pay on the BMW over 3 months.

I haven't test driven the Niro but it's smaller and I would guess not as nicely built, though I don't think the BMW interior materials are that great.

Probably not that zippy for an EV either.

And this year there will be a several EV CUVs introduced, though the Niro range of 239 miles per charge as rated by the EPA is still competitive.

I would guess it won't be as fast as the Mustang Mach E.

But I priced a Mach-E and the dealer wants to tack on a $4000 surcharge over the MSRP.

Volkswagen doesn't play that game, at least on their web site, taking $100 deposits on straight MSRP.

A lease might buy time for more competitive BEVs to come out to the market.
 
As an update, we've been happy with the 2019 Bolt; while the "fix" reduces range about 5-10% after reading about battery maintenance on the Bolt forum, I had already reduced the charge level to 90% so it didn't affect us.

DW found the Silverado "too big", she didn't want to get a trailer (one of the reasons I bought it, besides its rough road capabilities), and our son the winemaker is considering getting a trailer to take his 4 and 2 year old camping. So we sold him the Silverado and got a RAV4 Prime, a plug-in with a 42 mile e-range. DW took it camping down to the Valley of Fire outside Vegas the second week and really liked it. Because of long trips, we've only used the Emode about 25% of the time, so we're getting overall just over 50 mpg--but the tank has remained 1/2 full for the last week and a half (we used a little gas last week on the way back from a hike about 45 miles away and yesterday on the way back from Donner Lake). It can scoot in hybrid mode.
The main attraction was the E-range and the AWD, which is a big requirement here since I downhill ski a lot and she skis cross-country. The coming Ford Escape plug-in doesn't offer AWD, so I had to eliminate it. So the RAV4 is our distance camping long trip vehicle and Bolt for trips within a 80-100 mile range.
 
I'm thinking right now that I will be a relatively early convert to an EV, probably in 2026, by which time I will be collecting Social Security. I would anticipate price parity with gasoline-powered cars by then.

I'm not comfortable with a 200K mile daily driver, so won't keep my current car until then, but I will buy either an inexpensive new car or a used car to drive in the interim.

My requirement is the ability to make a 225 mile round trip without charging away from home, but I could tolerate a brief charge stop on the return leg in severe conditions.
 
TriumphTR3fan said:
Let’s get back on track. EV’s are different in that there are few options to charge away from home. Some EV owners have to become very creative if they live in apartments, condos or otherwise rent housing. There are options in large cities but it still can be a challenge to find easy charging. That was the foresight of Tesla’s Supercharger network. They built a basic nationwide system before it was really needed. Now they are rapidly expanding it. Eventually building codes will change to accommodate EV’s but until then Tesla has an enormous advantage. Charging at home is cheap & that advantage is unlikely to change in the medium/long term.
Click to expand...

We recently had a resident in our condo association buy a Tesla without giving any thought to charging (our 40 year-old association has no charging stations).

In any event, knowing that EVs are coming we are looking into the possibility of installing a communal Level 2 charging station near our clubhouse. The idea is to avoid each individual EV owner to incur the substantial cost to bore and run wiring underground to avoid disturbing lawns, gardens, walkways and sidewalks between the electrical room and their deeded parking space for a personal EV charging station. Another challenge is that at some point we will run out of electric capacity and who pays the cost of the necessary electrical upgrades... it definitely won't be the association... and it seems unfair to make it the current guy but how practical is it to go back to the previous guys?

With a communal charging station they could take their car to the communal station, charge up and then move their car back to their assigned parking spot. What the user pays for the charge would be designed to recover the cost of electricity use, maintainance, repairs, and a portion of installation costs.

Is this a viable approach? We're thinking it would be better than having our parking lots littered with personal charging stations. We would likely add additional charging stations in different parts of the complex as demand rises.

I would appreciate any info you have.
 
pb4uski said:
We recently had a resident in our condo association buy a Tesla without giving any thought to charging (our 40 year-old association has no charging stations).

In any event, knowing that EVs are coming we are looking into the possibility of installing a communal Level 2 charging station near our clubhouse. The idea is to avoid each individual EV owner to incur the substantial cost to bore and run wiring underground to avoid disturbing lawns, gardens, walkways and sidewalks between the electrical room and their deeded parking space for a personal EV charging station. Another challenge is that at some point we will run out of electric capacity and who pays the cost of the necessary electrical upgrades... it definitely won't be the association... and it seems unfair to make it the current guy but how practical is it to go back to the previous guys?

With a communal charging station they could take their car to the communal station, charge up and then move their car back to their assigned parking spot. What the user pays for the charge would be designed to recover the cost of electricity use, maintainance, repairs, and a portion of installation costs.

Is this a viable approach? We're thinking it would be better than having our parking lots littered with personal charging stations. We would likely add additional charging stations in different parts of the complex as demand rises.

I would appreciate any info you have.
Click to expand...

Have you tried talking to this company to get pricing?

https://www.chargepoint.com/drivers/apartments-and-condos/
 
pb4uski said:
We recently had a resident in our condo association buy a Tesla without giving any thought to charging (our 40 year-old association has no charging stations).

In any event, knowing that EVs are coming we are looking into the possibility of installing a communal Level 2 charging station near our clubhouse. The idea is to avoid each individual EV owner to incur the substantial cost to bore and run wiring underground to avoid disturbing lawns, gardens, walkways and sidewalks between the electrical room and their deeded parking space for a personal EV charging station. Another challenge is that at some point we will run out of electric capacity and who pays the cost of the necessary electrical upgrades... it definitely won't be the association... and it seems unfair to make it the current guy but how practical is it to go back to the previous guys?

With a communal charging station they could take their car to the communal station, charge up and then move their car back to their assigned parking spot. What the user pays for the charge would be designed to recover the cost of electricity use, maintainance, repairs, and a portion of installation costs.

Is this a viable approach? We're thinking it would be better than having our parking lots littered with personal charging stations. We would likely add additional charging stations in different parts of the complex as demand rises.

I would appreciate any info you have.
Click to expand...

I haven't used them, but my workplace has metered charging stations. I don't know if they're owned by the building, or if they're franchised more like vending machines, where the owner makes the profit, but there are models out there for that, and I'm sure that either way they have salespeople eager to explain it!
 
Last edited:
MRG said:
+1

This is who you want to be supporting the chargers. I've used chargepoint in our town while they were still providing free electricity.

I'm guessing the individual billing is handled at the charger, like any chargepoint charger, and the providers get their cut?
Click to expand...

The ideal solution would be for a third-party to come in and install a communal charging station at their expense, operate and maintain it and charge users (who would be residents who buy EVs and guests who come in EVs)... and we would have negligible involvement other than providing the space for the charging station. If we could get a small cut for providing the space then that would be icing on the cake.

The reason I'm asking is because I know next to nothing about these things.
 
pb4uski said:
The ideal solution would be for a third-party to come in and install a communal charging station at their expense, operate and maintain it and charge users (who would be residents who buy EVs and guests who come in EVs)... and we would have negligible involvement other than providing the space for the charging station. If we could get a small cut for providing the space then that would be icing on the cake.

The reason I'm asking is because I know next to nothing about these things.
Click to expand...
We have a communial setup in a park by the river that has two different sets of chargepoint chargers.

The first was sponsored by the electric provider and the town. Free juice from the electric company the first year to encourage acceptance. Today it's the same cost as my home electric bill. Apparently the town was encouraged by the level 2(20mph charge add) and put in two high speed DC chargers(180-375mph charge add) that generates some revenue.
I met a guy who has some knowledge of the setup, he claimed to help negotiate the deal between the electric provider, chargepoint, and the town. If I recall the brief conversation what you are wanting is just about how the deal worked out. Seems like everyone wins.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

folivier
We need more light rails
2 3 4
Replies
99
Views
4K
Koolau
Koolau
S
Car problems
2 3 4
Replies
83
Views
7K
old medic
O
2017ish
Driving and Hiking Patagonia, Emphasizing the Carretera Austral.
Replies
11
Views
990
klebs01
K
Qs Laptop
The Arcimoto, the Electric Fun Utility Vehicle
Replies
13
Views
968
Amethyst
Amethyst
Katsmeow
Another Cataract Surgery Thread
4 5 6
Replies
126
Views
19K
folivier
folivier

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom