We need more light rails

[ncbill]

Here in the USA light rail only seems used anywhere near its capacity for sporting events.

Not daily commuting.

 

[braumeister]

Won't this problem go away when we all get our flying cars?
They've been promised since the 1950s, so it should be any day now, right?

 

[HawkeyeNFO]

In D.C., about 1 in 6 people on the Metro are fare jumpers. Hard to have any revenue when people pay nothing.

 

[MichaelB]

Won't this problem go away when we all get our flying cars?
They've been promised since the 1950s, so it should be any day now, right?

https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/42036377

 

[Ronstar]

Light rail may make sense in cities, not elsewhere. And while it may make sense in some places, it's usually cost prohibitive.

I've seen light rail in action in Tempe, Az. Seems like a good place for it - in the heart of a 75,000 student university - but not good financially.

From Wikipedia (Valley Metro Rail):

The expected construction cost for the initial 20 miles (32 km) was $1.4 billion, or $70 million per mile.[4] In 2008, Valley Metro estimated the train would cost $184 million to operate over the following five years with fares covering $44 million of the operation costs and tax subsidies covering the remaining costs.[5]

 

[ls99]

I ran repair shops for 14 years for Baltimore light rail. It was the pet project of the then mayor and his "girlfriend". The building of track and overhead power system pretty much destroyed every business in the downtown area, from which it never recovered.

They choose custom built cars made by ABB of Sweeden and designed interior by the girlfriend. Around 1.8 Million per car. The entire system cost far more than double of the original proposal.
Then a few years later after the option to buy more cars at original price expired,, the decision was made to buy 18 more. Naturally by then all the jigs etc were destroyed, the new cost was well over 2.2 Mill/car.
Parts needed were only available from ABB and Siemens, very pricey.

Then there were the good boys having fun in Cherry Hill dropping concrete blocks from overpasses as the train approached, $2000 per heated winshield, 6 hours of labor. Until we ran out, 4 months delay to get more, cars parked for the duration. Many dozens had to be replaced before the charming kids were caught.

Baltimore has freezing rain often in the winter. Catenary, the overhead wire carrying 700 VDC gets solid coat, trian no-go. Tried many "ice cutting" Brass collectors, did not work. Then a bright engineer came up with a heater strip to be mated to the Catenary, a mile long test strip was constructed, failed to consider the thermal expansion of heater, on first powr up had nearly a mile long spectacular fireworks.
The catenary power contactors are programmed to re-close at least three times before locking out, mostly to well and goodly fry whatever critters of however many legs, or tree limbs manage to create a path to ground.

Remote controlled track switches don't work well either when packed with snow and ice.
There was an experiment with a sled loaded with a Jet engine, exhaust pointing to to tracks, pushed by a diesel locomotive. Another spectacular failure.

Though I did have fun learning to drive and getting certified, the diesel locomotive, used for recovering cars when for various reasons the catenary got torn down. No fun like towing a 65 ton railcar coming off a high bridge when tracks are icy. No amount of dumping sand on track would help with sliding at a ferocius rate while blasting air horn flying through a grade crossing intersection at noon. Hoping no cars would try to cross on their green light.

As for loading, During baseball games would have crush load's, other times very sparse.
Yea a horrendously expensive project, never ever made more than half the operating costs. Never mind recovering the construction costs.

I left there 15 years ago, no idea what goes on now, and dont care.


Edit add: Then there was the time an oprator ran a two car train through the bumpers at the airport, landed near the baggage carousels. He said he was using cocaine for his tooth ache. The lead car never gat back in useable condition.

 

[Qs Laptop]

The extension in Minneapolis was to open this year but has been put off until 2027 with massive cost overruns. Ridership is way down due to crime and homeless on board. Rode it for the first time in over two years and I will never ride it again.

Here in the USA light rail only seems used anywhere near its capacity for sporting events.

Not daily commuting.

I'm in suburban Minneapolis and I've ridden the light rail four times. Two times were to go to a Minnesota Twins game. Never again. First off, I had to drive to a park-and-ride parking lot, then get on the train. It happened that this particular lot was near the end of the train's run. As we lumbered toward downtown Minneapolis and the ballpark, more and more people got on the train, until it was like sardines packed inside a can. It took 45 more minutes to get there than if I had driven myself. Yes, it was cheaper than parking, but still...

The ride home was worse because everybody wants to get on the train simultaneously and only a fixed number can get on for each loading time. It took me over an hour longer to get home from a game than it would have had I driven.

I foolishly repeated this experience a couple years later.

The other times were to take the (then) kids on a trial ride shortly after the system was up and running.

Finally there was the time I took a free ride between airport terminals at MSP airport.

 

[marko]

Here in Boston, we'd be thrilled just to have the trains run on time, not be catching fire, derailing, driving into cars, be able to go more than 10 mph and without somebody getting stabbed.

Update: a guy was killed by a train last night.
[Sigh] just another day on the "T".

 

[MichaelB]

Here in South Florida we have a new passenger rail service. The first leg opened was Miami to West Palm Beach ( about 70 miles) with 3 interim stops, and they just started a new leg to Orlando.

I’ve take it 4 times and it’s really good. It’s pricey but practices variable pricing, so there are times when inexpensive fares can be had. They have a shuttle service in Miami which offers scheduled and reserved service to and from sports stadiums on game days.

 

[CardsFan]

I agree that it's wonderful to be able to take advantage of the trains in Europe. But there's a good reason this country wasn't able to do that -- distances.

Consider that all of Germany is about the size of Montana, France is smaller than Texas, and the UK is about as big as Michigan. In countries that size it makes sense, but a national rail system in the US would be unsustainable.

Bingo!

All of Europe fits in a small part of the US, and has a much larger population density. Rail (for people) works there. It does not work here.

 

[Music Lover]

Discussions about EVs are great but as I've said before it's 1350 miles to our cabin and we drive that at least 4 times each year. I won't consider an EV until I can easily make that trip with only 1 stop/day then charge overnight at a hotel.
But I won't rehash that.
Instead what I think our country needs is more passenger light rails.

Our cabin is 90 kilometers (55 minutes) from our house. We can go for the day if we want. We came here on Sunday, I drove home Monday night for band practice and then drove back.

I wouldn't consider any place that's further than 1.5 hours, and if it's 1.5 hours away it better be pretty special.

 

[SecondAttempt]

Discussions about EVs are great but as I've said before it's 1350 miles to our cabin and we drive that at least 4 times each year. I won't consider an EV until I can easily make that trip with only 1 stop/day then charge overnight at a hotel.
But I won't rehash that.
Instead what I think our country needs is more passenger light rails. I can drive 60 miles and catch the Sunset Limited to Las Cruces, NM but I'm still 580 miles from our cabin, too far for a single day drive since most of that is in the mountains. I'd love to see a light rail built along I-25 up to Denver then we could get off at Walsenburg, CO and only have a 4 hour drive. It wouldn't be a problem to leave a car in Walsenburg. Or a light rail up to Grand Junction and get off at Montrose, CO. That'd be even closer.
Here in Louisiana there has been on and off talking for years about a light rail along the existing railway from New Orleans to Baton Rouge. But it's never gotten past the talk and study phase.
Then I'd be interested in an EV since we'd use it for short local trips.

There is already rail along that route from El Paso (BNSF/D&RG and much under UP lease). Above Denver it is UP all the way to Canada although the line goes quite far west before crossing the border at the Idaho/Montana border. Why build more rail? Just put some passenger rolling stock on the existing rail. The trouble is the market just will not support it.

I like rail but it only makes sense where population is dense.

 

[SecondAttempt]

Nice idea, but every light rail system I've ever seen loses a lot of money based on ridership and has to be heavily subsidized. That's why they are generally only installed around cities for the use of commuters.

Light rail always makes huge promises then goes way over budget and seriously underdelivers. Maybe I'm jaded because I helped pay for the failures in Tucson and Honolulu. Honolulu was so far overbudget that you all helped pay through your federal taxes! Something like $1.5 billion per mile!

 

[SecondAttempt]

Here in Boston, we'd be thrilled just to have the trains run on time, not be catching fire, derailing, driving into cars, be able to go more than 10 mph and without somebody getting stabbed.

OMG, you want it all!

I must say, I have used metros all over the world even in languages I did not understand and Boston was one of the hardest to navigate!

 

[Andre1969]

If you're talking about mountainous areas, I don't think a light rail would work all that well. I'd imagine most light rails are electric powered, and just like electric cars, are most likely going to lose a ton of efficiency on the grades. Since they're tied into the grid, you don't have to worry about range anxiety, but that's still going to be a lot of energy costs.

To be fair, no form of transportation "likes" having a steep grade. Whether it's a light rail train, a real train, a Diesel powered bus, or a horse-drawn wagon. But, I just don't think there's enough demand to warrant taking light rail to relatively remote, mountainous locations.

 

[explanade]

Would it be light rail or once you go say more than 10-20 miles, it becomes regional rail.

Light rail I think of more like city trams.

I don't think that building new passenger rail lines for longer-distance transport -- say more than 50 miles -- would be any cheaper than it would cost to do high-speed rail of hundreds of miles between big cities.

Or the fact that it costs $1 billion to add each mile to NYC subway lines.

Other countries can do it much more cheaply, including European countries which have strong workers unions.

I'm in Nice now and I arrived yesterday afternoon, paid 1.50 Euro to get from the airport on a tram line to downtown. Trip took 20-25 minutes.

They opened the tram network within the past 5 or 10 years.

The trains were packed. I visited a couple of years ago, when there were still travel restrictions, and the trains were empty then.

Amazingly, taxis charge like 50 Euros and I don't think it's even 10 kilometers distance. Some traffic and tolls to deal with but I don't know how many riders those airport taxis get.

 

[HawkeyeNFO]

https://wtop.com/maryland/2023/06/m...h-in-expected-2026-completion-of-purple-line/

The governor of Maryland hired the Paul Wiedefeld, who mismanaged the Silver Line Metro to Dulles Airport, which was billions of dollars over budget, and opened about 10 years late. Now that guy is in charge of Maryland's Purple Line project, which was a disaster to begin with, and isn't getting any better. Now Marylanders get to pay for another project that is way over budget and not delivering capability.

 

[folivier]

Maybe I can buy a rail car and rebuild it to have a nice passenger area with bed, bathroom, kitchen, living area and have the freight lines drag me along. Maybe rent it out when not in use.
Kinda like the railroad barons had years ago.

 

[Gumby]

Just like The Wild Wild West on TV. I always wanted to be like Robert Conrad and live on a train.

 

[OldShooter]

... I wouldn't consider any place that's further than 1.5 hours, and if it's 1.5 hours away it better be pretty special.

Made me smile. What I have found over the years is that whatever distance people drive to their vacation homes, they say "That's as far as I could go; not an hour further." Trips 1.5 hours, 3 hours (our drive), five hours, ... it doesn't matter. "We wouldn't consider any place that's further than <however long we're driving now>."

 

[Andre1969]

https://wtop.com/maryland/2023/06/m...h-in-expected-2026-completion-of-purple-line/

The governor of Maryland hired the Paul Wiedefeld, who mismanaged the Silver Line Metro to Dulles Airport, which was billions of dollars over budget, and opened about 10 years late. Now that guy is in charge of Maryland's Purple Line project, which was a disaster to begin with, and isn't getting any better. Now Marylanders get to pay for another project that is way over budget and not delivering capability.

Yeah, the Purple Line is a mess! I know someone who bought a house in Riverdale, MD, who was excited about the Purple Line coming through, and how it would make the value of his home skyrocket. That was back in 2008!

I haven't been out that way in awhile. My Granddad and Dad used to live in that same area, but Granddad died in late 2016, Dad in March of 2017, and the house was sold a few months later. I might have been out that way 2-3x at most, since then, but probably not in 3-4 years. I've looked at the area on Google's street view, though. Looks like a mess!

The area where Kenilworth Avenue and 410 intersect had been prone to gridlock for about as long as I can remember, but this construction looks like it's making it worse. And I have a feeling that once it's up and running, that Purple line is going to cause more traffic jams and gridlock than it's supposed to prevent.

When/If this purple line thing opens up, I might ride it just for the hell of it. My Granddad worked for the Pennsylvania Railroad from 1939-74, so trains are kind of in my blood. When the Baltimore Light Rail opened up in the early 1990's, some friends and I rode it from one end to the other, just for kicks.

Actually, the Baltimore Light Rail is one example of public transportation I have used, from time to time. It's nice to just go and park at one of the stations out in the suburbs, take the light rail in to the Inner Harbor, and not have to worry about traffic, dealing with the parking garages down there, etc.

Although, sometimes cars to get broken into in those suburban parking lots. I haven't been on the light rail in at over 5 years, and back then I'd see occasional broken car window glass in the parking lot. With all these soft-on-crime policies and emboldened criminals, I'm sure it's only gotten worse.

My current home is only about 10-15 minutes from the southern-most station on the Baltimore Light Rail, so in theory it's convenient to me. Only thing is, I haven't ridden the light rail since I've moved out here!

 

[Music Lover]

Made me smile. What I have found over the years is that whatever distance people drive to their vacation homes, they say "That's as far as I could go; not an hour further." Trips 1.5 hours, 3 hours (our drive), five hours, ... it doesn't matter. "We wouldn't consider any place that's further than <however long we're driving now>."

I can understand that some people might justify their location. However, when we were looking for a cabin 2 years ago we decided right from the start that 90 minutes was the max distance, and realistically that was still too far for me.

Fortunately, we live less than an hour from 2 major lakes so it was easy to find something close. Another lake area is 1.5 - 1.75 hours away and we didn't even bother to look there as a friend has a place there and the few times I've gone it has always felt like too far of a drive.

Also, we'll probably sell the city house at some point but we'll still need to go to the city so we wanted a location close enough that we could drive there and back even if we would only be there for a few hours.

 

[ERD50]

Ok guys, let me clarify my post. I'm NOT talking about light rails within a city. I'm talking about light rails (meaning passenger trains rather than freight trains) connecting cities. In my case I'd like to see a passenger train running from either El Paso or Las Cruces to either Denver or Grand Junction. IMO that would be a nicer and safer alternative to riding a bus. More amenities, fewer stops, less traffic, etc.

IMO, you are dreaming. You want that route, but people in other areas would want other routes (Hey, what about me? I want KC to Denver, or OK City to Albuquerque, or Dallas to El Paso, etc, etc, etc) , and that's a lot of the US to cover.

The route you are talking about looks to be pretty sparsely populated. I just can't see this making any kind of economic sense at all, or worth subsidizing for the small number of passengers. Here's the route and a night view of city lights....

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/El+...36d6!2m2!1d-104.990251!2d39.7392358?entry=ttu

-ERD50

 

[Andre1969]

They've been trying to push some kind of high-speed rail between DC and Baltimore for some time, with the pipe dream of ultimately pushing it through to NYC or something like that.

Only problem is, I think it would only have the two stops...DC and Baltimore, with nothing in between. Put in too many stops, and suddenly it's not high speed rail anymore. So essentially, unless you're close to either the DC or the Baltimore station, this thing will be essentially useless to most people. Most people in between will only be able to catch a glimpse of it as it hurtles past, or feel the rumble if it's underground. And then, if they need to get to DC or Baltimore, they'll either get in their cars and DRIVE to DC or Baltimore, or at the very least, drive to a Baltimore Light Rail Station, a DC Metro station, or, if it's convenient, the MARC train that runs on the old Pennsylvania Railroad right of way.

I think I read somewhere that only a few thousand people actually commute all the way from Baltimore proper to DC proper. While many people take advantage of the current train/bus services, as well as the highways, that connect DC and Baltimore, most users only use part of the system. For instance, start in Baltimore, end up in a suburb somewhere. Or start in a suburb, end up in DC. So making something that runs non-stop from DC to Baltimore is kind of pointless.

Now, I'm talking high speed rail here, and not light rail or regular passenger train service here, but I think it shows a good example of how, even in congested areas, we're too spread out, to really make public transportation as effective, and full-coverage, as many people would like.

 

[HawkeyeNFO]

https://www.governing.com/archive/gov-maglev-train-old-dominion-university.html

When I lived in Norfolk, they built a track for a MagLev. It only would have gone about a half mile. Well it never operated other than a test run, and then the track sat there for about 20 years, with no trains on it. What a waste of tax dollars.