Non FDIC Deposit Account Programs

... I would think things could get a bit dicey/volatile in the last year as the assets are sold off approaching the end date. Just something to consider as 2022 nears.
@pb4 has pointed out that one could just sell prior to that last year of declining performance, but my guess is that the bid prices would reflect the relative undesirability of the merchandise, so maybe no free lunch there.
 
I'm not passing any judgement, but looking at 1 year, 3 years, and life, the fund continually goes lower. It's not clear that the dividends compensate for the NAV/price loss.

Also, I haven't personally invested in any BulletShares or equivalent, but I would think things could get a bit dicey/volatile in the last year as the assets are sold off approaching the end date. Just something to consider as 2022 nears.

I want you to pass judgement, as it's how I learn. :flowers:
 
@pb4 has pointed out that one could just sell prior to that last year of declining performance, but my guess is that the bid prices would reflect the relative undesirability of the merchandise, so maybe no free lunch there.
I would have thought so too Old Shooter, but it didn't seem to happen... I think in part because buyers are focused on NAV which sets a floor for the share price...but the fact that the terminal year's earnings will be suboptimal isn't reflected in NAV.
 
I would have thought so too Old Shooter, but it didn't seem to happen... I think in part because buyers are focused on NAV which sets a floor for the share price...but the fact that the terminal year's earnings will be suboptimal isn't reflected in NAV.

The end result is going to be dependent on if the fund manager is able to find buyers for the bonds in the portfolio at the current mark to market (how the NAV is arrived at). When you're a forced seller looking for a bid, you're generally not going to get the mark to market - you're going to get less. Now, we do have a strange market at this time due to the interest rate situation, so who knows?

Here is a list of the current holdings:
https://www.invesco.com/us/financial-products/etfs/holdings?audienceType=Investor&ticker=BSJM

Eyeballing it, it seems about half the portfolio has 2022 maturity and the other half is 2025/2026/2027. For those maturing in 2025/2026/2027, the fund manager will be going to the market to sell and will ultimately take what they can get. For those maturing in 2022, the point to consider is that each holding in the portfolio is rated BB or lower - will all those issuers be able to repay the principal due at maturity? Will some have filed for bankruptcy protection prior to the maturity date? The saving grace here is that because of the interest rate environment, issuers have been able to refinance higher interest debt for lower relatively easily as there are plenty of buyers of debt chasing yield, no matter how low. I'd have to believe similar is holding true in the high yield market.
 
I just noticed this morning that Toyota IncomeDriver Notes interest rate has declined from 2.0% to 1.5%.

I had set up an account last week and only minimally funded it and was going to move some money into it soon.

DERI is 1.50% for less than $10k, 1.60% for $10k-$50k and 1.75% for over $50k.
 
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Seems like a lot of work setting up multiple accounts for <2% return in such a volatile market when stock trades can yield that in a day or week.
 
For last 6 months since MM dropped from 2% to near zero, I’ve taken that cash and bought stock that I’m comfortable holding long term but looking for short term gain. Using a portion of that cash at any one time, I’ve easily earned >5% on the total in 6 months and currently back to all cash with that portion of my AA. The volatility from Covid crash and recovery is friendly to this game. Who knows what the future holds, but my cash can now sit 18 months and I’ve got 2% across that time period. If we get another healthy dip, I’ll play again.

Essentially I’m saying it’s been fruitful to gamble with small portion of my bankroll that was essentially idle. I accepted risk as I bought stocks that either had runway or were well off previous levels. Agree that condition won’t exist forever, but same market that killed the MM return, provided this opportunity.
 
I started the Toyota Income Driver account application but never finished the setup and funding. Now I’ll probably not pursue it, I’m on the fence. I have a phone meeting to learn the workings of a MYGA ladder so might go that route and reduce the liquid holds to a few months instead of a few years.
 
Bump.... I have some Navy Federal CDs maturing in a month that will be looking for a productive home so I figured I would share the various demand note programs that I have found:

Well-known Names:

Others:
Another one which is a little different is UHaul Investor's Club... those are longer term deals. Current offerings are 1.75% for 2 years, 3% for 5 years and 3.75% for 8 years and you receive quarterly payments of principal and interest.
https://www.uhaulinvestorsclub.com/InvestmentOpportunities

I have had small positions in Toyota and DERI since late 2020 and will probably add to them but limit them each to 1% or so of the total portfolio. For both the initial setup was a bit old school... not like setting up and funding an online savings account but once it is set up it functions much like an online savings account in my experience but I have yet to make a withdrawal.

I think I'll also add GM and perhaps Mercedes. I might consider smaller positions in the two others as a flyer but I need to do more due diligence on them.

If you know of any others or have experience with any of these please add them to the thread.
 
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There’s a long thread about these over at Bogleheads. Is it okay to post a link here for those who want to check it out? If not you can easily find it with a google search. That’s how I found it.
 
Another one which is a little different is UHaul Investor's Club... those are longer term deals. Current offerings are 1.75% for 2 years, 3% for 5 years and 3.75% for 8 years and you receive quarterly payments of principal and interest.
https://www.uhaulinvestorsclub.com/InvestmentOpportunities

We began "investing" with UHaul 6 months ago, putting money in every two weeks on auto pilot, so we now have a nice and growing account.

A few things I have noticed and/or to take note of:

1. The UHaul notes are secured debt. As you can readily see when you visit the site, they are all asset-backed. In the event of default, there is real property that a trustee can step in, take possession of, and sell off. Granted, moving blankets, 20 year old towable trailers, and the other items they attach as collateral have questionable value, but it is the nuts and bolts of their business. Other programs like Toyota, GM, Dominion are unsecured. On the very long term notes, when they offer them, they can go to 30 years and backed by real estate of franchisees, and when offered the yield on those have gone as high as 8% or more (it's been quite a while since those were offered). Lastly, keep in mind that ultimately, these are debt instruments of Amerco (UHaul's parent - publicly traded company listed on NYSE), so even after the asset-backing, at the end of the day, like any other corporate debt, the company is obligated to make good on them. Every note is registered with the SEC and you can review the prospectus of any of them on sec.gov.

2. The UHaul notes are offered weekly. They open on Tuesday at 6PM and close the next Tuesday at 5PM. At that time, depending on interest rates, what they offer may change. When we opened our account and began contributing, 8 year was at 4%, 5 year was at 3.25%, 3 year was at 2.75%, 2 year was not offered. A couple months ago, they began offering the 2 year and the yield was 2%. They also had a 4 year at 2.75%. Since then, they've only been offering the 2, 5, and 8 year and generally the spreads are at 0.25%/year. However, a few weeks ago, on the 2 year notes, they dropped to 1.75% from 2%, while maintaining the 5 year at 3% and the 8 year at 3.75%. Personally, I had been sticking to the shorter term notes at 3 and 5 years. When they offered the 2 year instead of the 3 year I bought those, until they dropped the rate to 1.75%, and since then have been buying the 5 year. From what I see (they provide a real-time view of each offering), most others have a similar approach. The shorter term notes at 5 years and under will be fully subscribed weekly. Initially, the 2 year notes at 1.75% did not get much demand. However, that has picked up as has the 8 year as well.

3. When the Uhaul notes pay, they work the same way a mortgage works - it is amortized. So, your quarterly payment will include the interest on the balance plus a portion of the principal. The balance declines over the term of the note and with the final quarterly payment it will be comprised mostly of the last prinicipal payment and a small interest amount, exactly like a mortgage. I like this aspect as it immediately produces cash flow, so the funds can be reinvested in new notes. At this time, as the interest rates are still low, that's not necessarily a good thing. However, when the time comes that yields do move higher, it will allow reinvestment in higher yielding notes. Though I may have 5 year notes, not all of the funds are locked up for 5 years - it's throwing off interest and a portion of the principal balance quarterly.

4. The website is very good, simple and straightforward. Setting up an account is fast and easy, and it is easy to set up a recurring investment schedule so you can have funds transferred in to your account automatically. You still need to go in and choose what notes you want to put those funds towards, but you don't have to deal with manually transferring the money from your bank over and over. There is a 5 calendar day delay from the day a transfer is initiated until the funds are available for investment. Maybe it's 3 business day, I'm not sure - my transfers are initiated on Thursdays and the money is available on Tuesday, so that's how I see it.

Disclaimer: I am not recommending or suggesting anyone invest in the UHaul notes, just providing the info and my experience with them thus far. Like the other programs from Toyota, GM, etc. the funds are not FDIC insured, but are ultimately financial obligations of the company.
 
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Thanks for the nice summary of programs plus Uhaul. Caterpillar...shame on you! They have an outstanding dealer distributor network although there’s been some upheaval lately. I bet they coerce participation in their notes.
 
Maybe you should go and review what the circumstances were surrounding the bankruptcy.
+1


I'm sure we could make a list of dozens or hundreds of big companies that have been through a bankruptcy at some time in their past and are still going strong. A company that came out of bankruptcy 18 years ago wouldn't be a cause for concern to me. I'd be focused on their current financial standing.
 
Not arguing pro or con, but any of these borrowers who are going through the hassle of dealing with tiny consumer investments have to be doing so for one reason: The net cost, interest and hassle, is less than what big lenders will offer them, if they are able to borrow from big lenders at all. So in some sense, consumer borrowers are taking a risk that the professional lenders refuse to take.
 
Not arguing pro or con, but any of these borrowers who are going through the hassle of dealing with tiny consumer investments have to be doing so for one reason: The net cost, interest and hassle, is less than what big lenders will offer them, if they are able to borrow from big lenders at all. So in some sense, consumer borrowers are taking a risk that the professional lenders refuse to take.



I don’t think Toyota et al are unable to borrow from big lenders. I agree it seems like a hassle for many of these companies and I don’t know why they choose to be bothered but in some cases it is goodwill. Likewise Toyota has a green bond program.
 
Not arguing pro or con, but any of these borrowers who are going through the hassle of dealing with tiny consumer investments have to be doing so for one reason: The net cost, interest and hassle, is less than what big lenders will offer them, if they are able to borrow from big lenders at all. So in some sense, consumer borrowers are taking a risk that the professional lenders refuse to take.

That may be part of it but what I read more at the reasoning is diversity in funding source.

Large firms such as Caterpillar, Ford Motor Co. and General Electric offer the notes to the public to “diversify their investor base,” says Brian Kalish, finance practice lead at the Association for Financial Professionals, a professional group for company financial officers in Bethesda, Md.

These companies also raise money for their operations by selling short-term bonds to large institutional investors or to individuals through brokers. But by selling the notes directly to consumers via the Internet, the firms can save on commission payments to brokers and also sell to individuals who tend to hold the investment longer than institutional buyers, Kalish says.

If I take Toyota as an example, it is rated A+ by Fitch and the program pays 1.5% whereas FDIC insured online savings accounts pay 0.5% or less, so 1% for a 1 notch difference between AAA and A+ seems to be a fair exchange to me, especially when TMCC's short-term credit rating by Fitch is the highest category (F1).
 
Bump.... I have some Navy Federal CDs maturing in a month that will be looking for a productive home so I figured I would share the various demand note programs that I have found

Thanks for bumping this. I have cash that, if we don't upgrade houses this spring, could use a return increase. I didn't know about these until recently and they seem like a "relatively" safe way to stretch yield a bit.
 
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I don’t think Toyota et al are unable to borrow from big lenders. I agree it seems like a hassle for many of these companies and I don’t know why they choose to be bothered but in some cases it is goodwill. Likewise Toyota has a green bond program.

That may be part of it but what I read more at the reasoning is diversity in funding source. ... If I take Toyota as an example, it is rated A+ by Fitch and the program pays 1.5% whereas FDIC insured online savings accounts pay 0.5% or less, so 1% for a 1 notch difference between AAA and A+ seems to be a fair exchange to me, especially when TMCC's short-term credit rating by Fitch is the highest category (F1).
Call me a cynic, but I don't think this kind of thing is motivated by goodwill. The borrowers could get goodwill more easily and much more broadly among consumers in other ways.

Re risk, rating, etc. these deals seem to be attractive to many retail investors. The point of my post was simply to assert that AFIK the TANSTAAFL rule has not been repealed.
 
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