Internet Accessible Thermostat, Advice?

[Dash man]

I'd like to upgrade to current technology thermostats but we have a zoned system (upstairs, main floor, and downstairs) and that seems to take a lot of options (including Nest) off the table. I'm thinking Honeywell might be our best bet but was wondering if any of you have experience with thermostats on a zoned forced air heat/AC system. I got one quote from a local contractor and it was way overboard (in my opinion).

We have two zones, but just use two Honeywell thermostats.

 

[harley]

I was thinking of pointing a camera at my thermostat for when we go on long trips during the winter, just so I could see the furnace is still working. If the furnace stops, even a controlled thermostat is no use, and having just a camera means nobody can shut off the thermostat remotely by accessing the company servers/app.

I've got a couple of low tech camera based monitoring systems that I set up. I didn't do it to prevent hacking, as I don't think that's an issue. Hackers have better things to do than play individual pranks.

We leave a dehumidifier running during the summers in our FL house, and I have a camera set up for viewing the interior of the house that can see the display to make sure it's still running. Can't do anything about it if it's not, but I like to know.

At our MD house we have a generator that I wanted to monitor to make sure it's exercising on schedule. The Generator company wanted to sell me a $1k+ system plus a monthly monitoring fee. Instead I attached some ribbons to a board and dangled it above the intake vents of the gennie. Then I can use my wifi camera to look down at the Generator when it's scheduled to exercise and see if the ribbons get sucked against the intake vents. Cost me about a buck fifty since I already had the camera set up.

 

[athena53]

That would be an automatic deal breaker for me...I have no intention of letting someone else decide what temperature my house should be.

They give you advance notice and you can opt out if you want. It happens only a few times per season.

 

[zinger1457]

Currently, I have some Wyze camera's, they are great (V3) and only ~$20 ea. I TRY to limit the access by: putting them on my guest network , and not my regular network.

My router has 2 networks, one for guests, and one for "normal". It's so you can give the password to your guests to have wifi at your home, but are not giving out the password of your normal network.

That is my only solution, so far, and hopefully one that is secure enough. Network GURU's please chime in: does this mean everything on my regular network is invisible to the guest network

Are you concerned that someone with previous access to your home network being able to access your cameras? Don't see how that could happen, at least not easily. Most wifi cameras require a special app (PC and/or phone) to view and the app has to be configured to work with a specific camera and it also requires a unique account login with user name and password. The initial setup has to be done locally at your house so unless your 'guest' went through the above steps inside your home to connect to your cameras they won't be able to see anything.

 

[Rambler]

When we bought our current home, it had Nest thermostats. I’ve enjoyed them, but my wife still cannot control them, even manually. Two weeks ago, I had to go out of town for a week. She texted and called me a couple of times to change the temp for her...from a thousand miles away.

 

[ERD50]

.... So ... assembled experts, can you point me to a thermostat that I can access without relying on a vendor's servers somewhere to relay the control? ...

I think maybe only one or two posters considered (or understood) this part of your post.

.... I am thinking of something where I can just open a single port on the firewall and restrict that traffic to accessing only the thermostat. Or maybe use a VPN some way. Down the road I may add some cameras and will want the same kind of setup with none of my information stored at or passing through a vendor. Any ideas?

I'm not very network savy, but when I've looked into things like this before, I think it becomes difficult if you don't have a static IP?

So here's an idea, though you'd need to work out the interface. Have a small server (Raspberry PI?) set up with an email address. When you send it a specially formatted email, with some data on what to do with the thermostat, it would then act on it. That way, you are no more exposed than with any email (less so, unless your Pi starts clicking on links from Nigerian Princes!).

Not sure of the hardware to interface to a thermostat, but actually, I think you can limit some thermostats to listen only on the local network? In that case, there would be no outside servers involved.

Make any sense (as I said, I'm not very network savvy)?

edit/add: Actually, it might be easiest to apply the above email idea, and let the Pi be the thermostat. A temperature module (readily available and cheap), and a relay board (there are only about 5 wires on a thermostat) is all you'd need. If this is during winter, I saw a suggestion to wire an old 'dumb' thermostat in parallel with the heat connection, and set to the lowest temperature (usually 55F?), as a back up against freezing pipes.



-ERD50

 

[CaptTom]

I think maybe only one or two posters considered (or understood) this part of your post.

Agreed. Avoiding cloud dependency is a pretty big obstacle for an off-the-shelf, homeowner-grade device. The manufacturers don't want to support everyone's homegrown solution. They want a mass market, one size fits all solution, all controlled by the manufacturer's own server.

I'm not very network savy, but when I've looked into things like this before, I think it becomes difficult if you don't have a static IP?

Almost anyone with adequate tinkering skills will probably be able to set up dynamic DNS or a number of other techniques for getting to a device on your internal network from the outside. Probably less skill required than setting up relays controlled by Raspberry PI GPIO pins.

I've had good luck with Home Assistant, an open source home automation suite, but OpenHAB is another. Either will run just fine on an older model Raspberry.

Even though I run Home Assistant, I never bothered to go with only local control for my thermostats. For one thing, I already had the Honeywells installed. And as I mentioned in my post above, there are some benefits.

 

[levindb]

I have 3 ecobee thermostats. One connected to a dedicated HVAC and the other 2 share a dual zone HVAC. Each zone has its own thermostat and it uses the existing zone damper controller.

 

[ERD50]

... Almost anyone with adequate tinkering skills will probably be able to set up dynamic DNS or a number of other techniques for getting to a device on your internal network from the outside. Probably less skill required than setting up relays controlled by Raspberry PI GPIO pins. ...

Yes, I think I'm in the mode of "To a hammer salesman, every problem looks like a nail!". I'm just more familiar with a plug-and-play relay board (I think they make them with nice screw terminal blocks, and plug-in header, no soldering required) than I am network configurations and port forwarding. But as you say, with a little motivation and research, I'm sure I could do that as well.

...
Even though I run Home Assistant, I never bothered to go with only local control for my thermostats. For one thing, I already had the Honeywells installed. And as I mentioned in my post above, there are some benefits.

So did my earlier comment make any sense at all? Can a typical WiFi thermostat be set to only respond to the local network and not listen for any outside controls (or do these things only look to that cloud server?)? If so, then I think the idea of a tiny Pi server just listening for emails and sending local control over the local WiFi could work for the OP? Regardless if others think it is worth it or not, it seems to fit the description of what he's looking for?

-ERD50

 

[OldShooter]

... So did my earlier comment make any sense at all? Can a typical WiFi thermostat be set to only respond to the local network and not listen for any outside controls (or do these things only look to that cloud server?)?

Yes. Very do-able by firewall settings. It would also be possible to block all inbound packets from the mother ship IP address, which is almost certainly static. Unfortunately, my main need for this control is so we can tell the house to warm up or cool down as we drive "to the lake," cancelling the power save mode.

... If so, then I think the idea of a tiny Pi server just listening for emails and sending local control over the local WiFi could work for the OP? Regardless if others think it is worth it or not, it seems to fit the description of what he's looking for? ...

Clever. And if ancient history is any guide I have the skills to do that, but sloth reigns when I contemplate any programming project and DW is constantly mad about the many things around here that she can't figure out how to work. Adding one more would be unwise. But thanks.

To some other comments, a static IP would work I think but the local co-op telephone company charges big bucks (IIRC like $100/month) as they equate a static IP with someone wanting to run a server. But that idea has triggered me to think a little bit about a DynDNS type solution. We'll see.

 

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
... If so, then I think the idea of a tiny Pi server just listening for emails and sending local control over the local WiFi could work for the OP? Regardless if others think it is worth it or not, it seems to fit the description of what he's looking for? ...

Clever. And if ancient history is any guide I have the skills to do that, but sloth reigns when I contemplate any programming project and DW is constantly mad about the many things around here that she can't figure out how to work. Adding one more would be unwise. But thanks. ...

I'm not trying to sell you on the idea, but if the Pi was just sending the commands over local WiFi, I don't think it would be any different for your wife. It would be transparent - she would go to the thermostat (not the Pi) and make any change she wants, just as she does now. When you are out, you could email the Pi with any changes. It would work the same as the cloud-based solutions, you'd just eliminate the cloud by using email and a local Pi.

BTW, I've dabbled in some of this, and in Python at least (and I think it is as easy in C as well), sending (and receiving I assume, I've only done sending) emails is easy-peasy. There's a library with a very easy to use interface, like just pass it the address, subject, and body text of the email.

-ERD50

 

[harley]

To some other comments, a static IP would work I think but the local co-op telephone company charges big bucks (IIRC like $100/month) as they equate a static IP with someone wanting to run a server. But that idea has triggered me to think a little bit about a DynDNS type solution. We'll see.

Or just bite the bullet, get a Honeywell wifi thermostat, and enjoy life with excellent control and no invasive issues. You'd be using their servers, but just to look at your equipment. They don't gather information about your television or browsing habits, and if you get a "non-learning" model it won't do anything other than control the temps.

 

[OldShooter]

Or just bite the bullet, get a Honeywell wifi thermostat, and enjoy life with excellent control and no invasive issues. You'd be using their servers, but just to look at your equipment. They don't gather information about your television or browsing habits, and if you get a "non-learning" model it won't do anything other than control the temps.

Yes. I think I'm headed that way. As I said in an earlier post, I don't think they have the ulterior motives that other vendors have. Now, they could still be selling customer information, but until the hack we'll never know.

Edit: I've been surprised by all the Honeywell enthusiasm here. That raises my confidence a bit.

 

[GalaxyBoy]

That would be an automatic deal breaker for me...I have no intention of letting someone else decide what temperature my house should be.

My power company paid me $50 to opt-in on this deal. I usually don't notice they've upped my temperature setting and the few times I did, I simply adjusted the temperature back down.

When we bought our current home, it had Nest thermostats. I’ve enjoyed them, but my wife still cannot control them, even manually. Two weeks ago, I had to go out of town for a week. She texted and called me a couple of times to change the temp for her...from a thousand miles away.

Hey! Does my wife have a second family?

 

[CaptTom]

So did my earlier comment make any sense at all? Can a typical WiFi thermostat be set to only respond to the local network and not listen for any outside controls (or do these things only look to that cloud server?)

1) Yes, your comment made sense. What you suggest is exactly what I would like to do. Local control, no manufacturer server involved.

2) No, most remotely-accessible thermostats only accept remote commands from the manufacturer's servers. Their app or web site allows you to send your commands (over the internet) to the server. The server then (if the thermostat is connected and responding to the server) asks the thermostat to do whatever it is you wanted.

You can see the obvious flaws in the logic. Multiple points of failure, delay in propagating the command from across the room, privacy issues, security issues with open ports to IoT devices on your home network, etc.

The saving grace is that none of this is required. The smart thermostat can just keep running its pre-defined schedule locally even if the internet (and therefore, your remote control capability) is not available.

PS: Honeywell most certainly does store detailed run-time information about your HVAC system. They even send a nice email each month with a summary. But the detailed data, which might help monitor and manage your system, is not available to the customer. I asked.

 

[OfficeSpace]

I'd like to upgrade to current technology thermostats but we have a zoned system (upstairs, main floor, and downstairs) and that seems to take a lot of options (including Nest) off the table. I'm thinking Honeywell might be our best bet but was wondering if any of you have experience with thermostats on a zoned forced air heat/AC system. I got one quote from a local contractor and it was way overboard (in my opinion).

As a "COVID project" last year I upgraded our HVAC system from old two-wire rotary thermostats to five Honeywell RedLink touchscreens controlling four oil-fired hot water baseboard zones and one whole-house A/C "zone" via an HZ432 with remote Internet access through a RedLink Gateway. I sourced all parts on eBay (some new, most used) for well under MSRP. I work in IT (not for much longer!) and have no significant security concerns.

 

[harley]

PS: Honeywell most certainly does store detailed run-time information about your HVAC system. They even send a nice email each month with a summary. But the detailed data, which might help monitor and manage your system, is not available to the customer. I asked.

That's true. I forgot about that. Mine goes straight into my spam box and autodeletes after awhile. I don't pay any attention to it, but they definitely do track usage. I still don't see that as very intrusive, though. Not worth the effort to DIY it. And I'm a former computer security engineer, and have tended to try to avoid being tracked/commoditized. But I guess I'm giving it up as a lost cause.

 

[CaptTom]

And I'm a former computer security engineer, and have tended to try to avoid being tracked/commoditized. But I guess I'm giving it up as a lost cause.

Same here. I did computer security for years. I'm not obsessed, nor do I wear tin-foil hats. It's more of a hobby; a challenge; see how much I can avoid being tracked and marketed at. But when it benefits me, I don't see a huge down side to letting Honeywell or Amazon track how I use their services. If there's someone at the NSA monitoring my activity, they've got the most boring job in the world!

 

[Sunset]

I've got a couple of low tech camera based monitoring systems that I set up. I didn't do it to prevent hacking, as I don't think that's an issue. Hackers have better things to do than play individual pranks.

.......
At our MD house we have a generator that I wanted to monitor to make sure it's exercising on schedule. The Generator company wanted to sell me a $1k+ system plus a monthly monitoring fee. Instead I attached some ribbons to a board and dangled it above the intake vents of the gennie. Then I can use my wifi camera to look down at the Generator when it's scheduled to exercise and see if the ribbons get sucked against the intake vents. Cost me about a buck fifty since I already had the camera set up.

My concern for you is could the ribbons turn brittle over time and then break and get sucked into the intake vents

Any chance you could put ribbons over the exhaust vent and still see them ?

 

[Sunset]

Are you concerned that someone with previous access to your home network being able to access your cameras? Don't see how that could happen, at least not easily. Most wifi cameras require a special app (PC and/or phone) to view and the app has to be configured to work with a specific camera and it also requires a unique account login with user name and password. The initial setup has to be done locally at your house so unless your 'guest' went through the above steps inside your home to connect to your cameras they won't be able to see anything.

My concern is the company servers.

Just imagine some hacker got admin access to Nest thermostat servers. Then installed a program to turn off heat in winter to all customers, or jack the heat up to 90 in the summer, and then encrypted the company servers.

Or in my camera case, I'm hoping even if a hacker was on the camera servers, they are limited to my guest network and cannot see my main computer network. This means they cannot access my computer in any manner (at least I hope it's true).

My camera's are pointed outside, so a hacker looking or turning them off has no immediate effect. I do literally plug in my interior cameras when we go out and unplug them when we return so no privacy issues there.

 

[OldShooter]

... I don't see a huge down side to letting Honeywell or Amazon track how I use their services. If there's someone at the NSA monitoring my activity, they've got the most boring job in the world!

OP here. I don't disagree with this. System vendors really cannot, just from a manpower point of view, do much individual monitoring. IIRC law enforcement 24x7 surveillance of one individual takes a team of 4+ people.

My low probability event is the vendor's database gets hacked, together with records of my occupancy patterns, credit card, address, home security configuration, and IPs for camera feeds. Lowlife in my city buys a few hundred records like this from the black hats, then starts browsing for targets. Even paranoids have enemies.

 

[harley]

My concern for you is could the ribbons turn brittle over time and then break and get sucked into the intake vents

Any chance you could put ribbons over the exhaust vent and still see them ?

They aren't Christmas ribbons, they're the pink ones the plant people use to mark trees and such. They last a pretty long time. Also, the intake vents are just on the big exterior box. The propane engine is inside, with significant space around it. Picture opening the hood of a VW. Basically that without all the peripherals.

And, no, I can only see one side. But I'm always considering new ideas. I was thinking about hooking up one of those inflatable wavy figures like you see in front of Mattress Warehouse to the exhaust. I'd be able to see that. But I suspect there are many flaws in that concept (lol) so I'll stick with the proven technique.

 

[tpkinsl]

I am a big fan of Wyze brand products. They have a Nest like camera for $25. I have a set for security in my vacation home. They also make a thermostat- I have not used it but I do have a robo vac and smart outlet from them. The products work great and are usually 50-75% less than the brand name version. And unlike Nest, most of the products are not subscription based, so no ongoing fees.

 

[FLSUnFIRE]

I love my Sensi by Emerson. It was on the cheaper end and has exceeded my expectations for two years with no issues (pretty remarkable for anything "connected" not once has it dropped). Alexa compatible and I love being able to control the HVAC by voice in bed with my eyes closed.

 

[Kroeran]

I think concern over blind wifi thermostat abuse is not a productive use of mental energy?

I have a couple of trailing edge refurb or used monochrome Honeywells ($40 on ebay) in action and an Ecobee. Love the simplicity and price of the Honeywells.

The Ecobee is a bit creepy. It comes to life if you walk by it and it can report such activity to anyone with login info.