New heavily mutated variant B.1.1.529 in South Africa raises concern

[Dawg52]

Just another thing I'm not going to worry about.

I'm covid weary. I just look at the sign on the door to see if I need to put on the mask.

Same.

I had a booster shot in late Oct but i'm not planning on taking another anytime soon. Looks like this thing is going to constantly mutate requiring tweaks to the vaccines. I'm pro vaccinations but how much is really good for our body? I'll just wear masks as required and/or stay at home if I have to.

 

[Rocket Man]

Actually, it is my understanding that mutated forms of the virus develop in response to the vaccines. Sort of a survival of the fittest kind of thing. Plus, our current vaccines have proven to be leaky, meaning that they are not completely effective. We can continue to modify our vaccines, but the virus will continue to mutate in response. I believe we are going to have to learn to live with the Covid virus, in one form or another, from here on out.

 

[RobbieB]

Learn? That's what we are doing right now.

 

[jollystomper]

I do not know why "they" do not name these things in a way the average Joe & Martha can understand.

Something like: Very Nasty Disease, Bad Stuff that can kill you, - 1 - 2 & 3 etc. LOL.

Too bad they do not turn over the naming rights to Monty Python.

 

[W2R]

Just another thing I'm not going to worry about.

I'm covid weary. I just look at the sign on the door to see if I need to put on the mask.

Same here. Plus, other than our favorite restaurant I really haven't been inside any businesses for months. Staying home is more appealing than it was prior to covid.

I heard that Omicron isn't going to be as bad as we think, but who knows. Not eager to catch anything at all, not even a cold much less Omicron.

 

[disneysteve]

I had a booster shot in late Oct but i'm not planning on taking another anytime soon. Looks like this thing is going to constantly mutate requiring tweaks to the vaccines. I'm pro vaccinations but how much is really good for our body?

Do you get a flu shot every year? This is really no different. If I need a COVID booster yearly to goose my immunity and cover me against new strains, I'll be there.

 

[TOOLMAN]

As mentioned, it is what it is. Sooner or later the laws of natural selection will win over. There will be fewer unvaccinated for whatever reasons, and the vaccinated % will rise to beyond herd immunity.

Covid Experience; the hard way to learn evolution.

Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward. -Vernon Law

 

[RobbieB]

I have no problem with vaccines, been getting them as long as I can remember.

 

[audreyh1]

Actually, it is my understanding that mutated forms of the virus develop in response to the vaccines. Sort of a survival of the fittest kind of thing. Plus, our current vaccines have proven to be leaky, meaning that they are not completely effective. We can continue to modify our vaccines, but the virus will continue to mutate in response. I believe we are going to have to learn to live with the Covid virus, in one form or another, from here on out.

Dr. Hotez says this variant came from an unvaccinated population just like alpha and delta variants did. Viruses can also mutate in an individual that can’t clear the disease and remains infected for a very long time.

 

[JoeWras]

Do you get a flu shot every year? This is really no different. If I need a COVID booster yearly to goose my immunity and cover me against new strains, I'll be there.

It is different. I get the flu vaccine, and I forget about it and move on with life.

I get the Covid vaccine, and I have to reserve the next day as a sick day to let my body react to the vax, then recover.

That doesn't mean I won't do it, or we shouldn't do it. But let's be honest, this is different. I have the luxury of being retired. The fact that these vaccines give people a real punch that requires downtime makes it different, especially for busy working people.

 

[JoeWras]

Dr. Hotez says this variant came from an unvaccinated population just like alpha and delta variants did. Viruses can also mutate in an individual that can’t clear the disease and remains infected for a very long time.

And maybe that unvaccinated person wanted the vax, but it just wasn't available for them yet.

It is a world problem. The unvaccinated are not all resistant. There are logistics to this that are an additional roadblock. It took decades to get the smallpox vax to the world population.

 

[RobbieB]

It'll take decades now. Same as it ever was.

 

[audreyh1]

And maybe that unvaccinated person wanted the vax, but it just wasn't available for them yet.

It is a world problem. The unvaccinated are not all resistant. There are logistics to this that are an additional roadblock. It took decades to get the smallpox vax to the world population.

I didn’t say anything about resistance.

 

[Rocket Man]

Just goes to show how little is known about the virus. The doctors do not even agree as to how it mutates.

 

[Jerry1]

Just goes to show how little is known about the virus. The doctors do not even agree [-]as to how it mutates.[/-]

Fixed it for you.

 

[tb001]

It is different. I get the flu vaccine, and I forget about it and move on with life.

I get the Covid vaccine, and I have to reserve the next day as a sick day to let my body react to the vax, then recover.

That doesn't mean I won't do it, or we shouldn't do it. But let's be honest, this is different. I have the luxury of being retired. The fact that these vaccines give people a real punch that requires downtime makes it different, especially for busy working people.

Agree. I’m very pro vaccine, but between getting the covid and shingles vaccines in the last year, I’m not super excited about lining up for any more for a while. They both knocked me on my tail for a while. In fact, I’ve put off my flu shot l, for the first time ever, because of it.

I will continue to get a COVID vax and any boosters offered, but I can see this being a real barrier for some.

 

[martyp]

Actually, it is my understanding that mutated forms of the virus develop in response to the vaccines. Sort of a survival of the fittest kind of thing. Plus, our current vaccines have proven to be leaky, meaning that they are not completely effective. We can continue to modify our vaccines, but the virus will continue to mutate in response. I believe we are going to have to learn to live with the Covid virus, in one form or another, from here on out.

The vaccines cannot cause the virus to mutate. Viruses mutate on their own. If your antibodies, stimulated by a previous vaccine or infection, cannot stop an existing variant then that variant will survive to continue to infect you and others. Any particular mutation occurs independent of the vaccines. It is pure chance. The more people infected though, the more opportunities for a mutation.

 

[Jerry1]

The vaccines cannot cause the virus to mutate.

We don't know that. Here's an article from NPR with a transcript from a discussion about this topic. The summary of the transcript is:

"Mutant coronaviruses can make vaccines less effective. At the same time, vaccines can contribute to virus mutations, but this is a slow process that should be manageable."

Here is a link to the discussion. It's from Feb. 2021 so not too old.

https://www.npr.org/2021/02/09/965703047/vaccines-could-drive-the-evolution-of-more-covid-19-mutants

My point is only that we don't know much for certain at this point.

My opinion is that we're just in the beginning of this and to think after one or two years, we'd be in the clear is probably optimistic.

 

[martyp]

We don't know that. Here's an article from NPR with a transcript from a discussion about this topic. The summary of the transcript is:

"Mutant coronaviruses can make vaccines less effective. At the same time, vaccines can contribute to virus mutations, but this is a slow process that should be manageable."

Here is a link to the discussion. It's from Feb. 2021 so not too old.

https://www.npr.org/2021/02/09/965703047/vaccines-could-drive-the-evolution-of-more-covid-19-mutants

My point is only that we don't know much for certain at this point.

My opinion is that we're just in the beginning of this and to think after one or two years, we'd be in the clear is probably optimistic.

The NPR intro is in error. The guest said the same thing I said,

“ HARRIS: That's because the virus is always mutating. And if one happens to produce a mutation that makes it less vulnerable to the vaccine, that virus could simply multiply in a vaccinated individual. But even if that happens, that's only one step in the process.”

The mutations occur first, naturally, independent of the vaccines. They occur in people who are unvaccinated as well. Most of the previous variants, alpha, beta, and Delta were first detected before there were vaccines. Delta I think at the same time vaccines were being tested and were not widespread.

Actually, to correct the guest, the mutated viruses are not less vulnerable to the vaccines but are less vulnerable to your antibodies that were previously stimulated by the vaccine or a previous infection.

A fully vaccinated world would still have infections and opportunities for mutations but it would be much much less than a fully unvaccinated world. Right now the world is mostly unvaccinated.

 

[Sunset]

And maybe that unvaccinated person wanted the vax, but it just wasn't available for them yet.

It is a world problem. The unvaccinated are not all resistant. There are logistics to this that are an additional roadblock. It took decades to get the smallpox vax to the world population.

+1

The world is still not Polio free, bring back Polio to every country and people will suddenly see the value in vaccines.

 

[Sunset]

The vaccines cannot cause the virus to mutate. Viruses mutate on their own. If your antibodies, stimulated by a previous vaccine or infection, cannot stop an existing variant then that variant will survive to continue to infect you and others. Any particular mutation occurs independent of the vaccines. It is pure chance. The more people infected though, the more opportunities for a mutation.

+1
Mutations happen. It's what evolution is all about and how it happens.
Glad someone had a good science class.

 

[Telly]

Do you get a flu shot every year? This is really no different. If I need a COVID booster yearly to goose my immunity and cover me against new strains, I'll be there.

Same here. Even if it took getting a free booster shot every month, if I can get in and out of a pharmacy to get it, I'll do it. To me, it's easy protection. Actually, it seems like a bit of a luxury - to be able to get a quick, virtually painless jab, that protects one with a pretty high % against a killing or life-changing disease.
When I was in the hospital for weeks in first grade, I got to see Mary in the iron lung (whether I wanted to or not) every day during my brief out-of-bed walk. I wanted to turn left from my room, the battle-axe always turned me right, down the hall, and into Mary's room to say hello. Mary was about 6th grade. I would guess that if Mary knew, she would have wanted a polio shot instead. Polio later struck a girl a year older than me in my neighborhood. I was told that Mary would spend her life in an iron lung, no hope. Reminds me again of the luxury I have in getting a shot.

 

[Jerry1]

The NPR intro is in error.

The point is to be careful with absolute statements. There is so much we don’t know and so much that is currently in flux even with the experts.

From the article (link below).

Infectious Disease Expert Dr. Leyla Best (presumably an expert)

Virus changes are associated with three things. First, sometimes a change in a virus is a pure error. . . . Another reason a virus might change is because of pressure from select cells in the body. . . . The creation of a vaccine for any new virus could also cause additional mutations. (Seems to think differently - e.g. experts disagree amongst themselves)

https://www.unitypoint.org/article.aspx?id=db428f77-6e61-497b-91ce-1317a3396dd8

 

[martyp]

Infectious Disease Expert Dr. Leyla Best (presumably an expert)

Virus changes are associated with three things. First, sometimes a change in a virus is a pure error. . . . Another reason a virus might change is because of pressure from select cells in the body. . . . The creation of a vaccine for any new virus could also cause additional mutations. (Seems to think differently - e.g. experts disagree amongst themselves)

Nothing Dr. Leyla Best says in the article contradicts what I said. Her first point is correct but incomplete. The virus can change by random mutations. It could also change by chemical mutagens which is how one of the new Covid treatments, Molnupiravir, works. That chemical is not present in the vaccines. Ionizing radiation could also mutate a virus genetic material so that would go in the category of random natural causes of mutation.

Everything else she says is consistent with the mutations being there first and either your antibodies can stop them or not.

To say ". . . the body is not able to clear the virus very well." just means the body's immune system wasn't able to defeat/clear the virus. The virus survives to continue infection.

Her final statement:

"The creation of a vaccine for any new virus could also cause additional mutations."

“Let’s explain this concept a little further. Any virus will keep trying to change, so it can continue to spread. With all vaccines, the more quickly people get vaccinated the better. The slower vaccination happens, the higher the chance of having mutations in the virus and the appearance of more variants. And, as we are seeing with the delta variant, the more the virus can spread in the community."

First of all she does a little too much anthropomorphizing for my taste. The virus isn't trying to do anything. It is cannot act with intent. Nothing else in that paragraph says the vaccine can chemically mutate the virus.

Also the statement, “ The slower vaccination happens, the higher the chance of having mutations in the virus and the appearance of more variants.”, seems to say fewer vaccinations leads to more variants, the opposite of what you expect if vaccines were causing variants.

I assume she understands the molecular biology but is just having trouble finding the right words to explain it to the general public. She is not alone in this.

 

[ShokWaveRider]

Mutations happen. It's what evolution is all about and how it happens.

And will continue to do so. We need to learn to live with it, use common sense and protect ourselves where we can. Hopefully sooner or later it will fade into another thing our bodies can cope with, with the help of good science.

I will take any additional booster or whatever that is recommended by the medical profession. DW and me had Zero side effects of consequence other than a slightly sore arm for a couple of days. We can live with that.

One thing is for sure the Vaccine producing companies love it, and are laughing all the way to the bank(s). Why not make another booster, it is good for business?