The Electric Vehicle Thread

[aja8888]

Interesting but these announcements appear to be to try to halt sales of competitors, since these GM models won't come out until well into 2023.

The big splash was the Silverado pickup, which will be in the $140k range for some configurations. Again, a 2023 product.

GM has to build up battery capacity so it's understandable these higher-volume cars are not until over a year from now.

For this year, it's expected to be Cadillac Lyric, starting at $60k and the Hummer EV, which is more like a $100k EV.

GM announced the truck today. Starting at $39.9 K (work truck model) going up to $105 K for top of the line.

https://www.theverge.com/2022/1/5/22863648/chevy-silverado-electric-truck-specs-price

The base model work truck will start at $39,900, while the fully loaded RST First Edition, named because it will be first off the assembly line in spring 2023, will sell for the suggested price of $105,000. Chevy says that after production ramps up, various versions of the truck will be available for $50,000–$80,000. The automaker is already taking reservations.

 

[explanade]

It's CES, the whole point of the show is future offerings, prototypes, and down the road stuff. Not just cars of course. I'm sure there are some fancy refrigerators too, likely ones that I can't buy for a year or three.

Most of the consumer electronics shown will be 2022 products, though who knows with chip and other supply chain shortages.

But some are demos for products which may be more than a year out or may never become products.

For instance, a Vietnamese manufacturer showed some prototypes of their EV cars and Sony showed an EV SUV.

The Ford Lightning F-150 will be a huge offering if Ford can make enough of them this year.

That is what the Silverado announcement is about, to tell loyal Silverado owners that they will also get an electric pickup.

 

[explanade]

GM announced the truck today. Starting at $39.9 K (work truck model) going up to $105 K for top of the line.

https://www.theverge.com/2022/1/5/22863648/chevy-silverado-electric-truck-specs-price

They're going to sell the most expensive models first, loaded up with enough battery for up to 400 mile range.

Then much later, you will be able to order the ones starting at $40k.

I think Ford is adopting a similar strategy.

Both are trying to build up battery manufacturing capacity.

 

[braumeister]

So far, my favorite CES ridiculosity is the Oral-B toothbrush. No price yet, but the previous version was $300 and was much less capable.

real-time oral health coaching built directly into the toothbrush's charging base, allowing you to monitor your brushing time, pressure, and coverage without needing to take your iPhone into the bathroom. Your brushing data then syncs to the Oral-B app for greater insights into your brushing habits.

features seven different cleaning modes for a personalized clean, including Daily Clean, Sensitive, Super Sensitive, Intense, Whiten, Gum Care, and Tongue Clean. A built-in pressure sensor helps keep your gums healthy and protected by displaying a red light when you are brushing too hard and a green light when you are brushing just right

 

[aja8888]

So far, my favorite CES ridiculosity is the Oral-B toothbrush. No price yet, but the previous version was $300 and was much less capable.

...without needing to take your iPhone into the bathroom.

I love it! But, will it work with Android?

(since I just spent nearly $6,000 on one tooth, I probably should get one of these)

 

[Zathras]

It's always kind of "interesting" how the fans take an inconvenient question, and answer a different question to provide some positive spin.

The question from REWahoo had nothing to do with running the AC (this was about getting stuck in a snowstorm!), it had to do with running the heat (I think newer Teslas use a heat pump for heat as well, not sure how much better that is than the resistive heat, which is a real energy suck.

And the ICE (lack of) idling efficiency isn't all that relevant - people were stuck, they stopped their cars for 20 minutes or so, then ran them for a while to get the heat back up.

Even if the ICE ran out of gas, a truck with a bunch of 5G cans will get then going. Not so easy if you ran your EV to zero.

Admittedly, these are rare cases, but they happen, and the EV has a disadvantage when you need it most.

-ERD50

To be fair, it is a very extreme edge case. I suspect the answer was as close as the poster could come with his experiences.
To answer the question, the typical EV would fare about as well as the typical ICE vehicle.

If the vehicle is equipped with a heat pump and has a 70kWh battery, I would estimate 30-40 hours of heat.
If you are close to empty, that will go down just as it would in a gas car.

In the recent event under question, I would rather have been in a BEV, but different extreme circumstances can always provide different solutions.

 

[MRG]

To be fair, it is a very extreme edge case. I suspect the answer was as close as the poster could come with his experiences.

To answer the question, the typical EV would fare about as well as the typical ICE vehicle.



If the vehicle is equipped with a heat pump and has a 70kWh battery, I would estimate 30-40 hours of heat.

If you are close to empty, that will go down just as it would in a gas car.



In the recent event under question, I would rather have been in a BEV, but different extreme circumstances can always provide different solutions.

+1

I'll test!

It's 28°F outside I parked my 2020 Model Y performance outside in the shade at 4pm. The battery was at 84% when I moved it, the climate is set to 65°F, and both the front seat heaters are on low. Not balmy but we're not going to freeze any body parts. No preconditioning of the battery was done. No reason I can't let it outside tonight, the forcast is a low of 16°F.[emoji4]

The vehicle was being repaired after hitting a deer last November but I did get it back in February and made a couple 100 mile round trips I'm familiar with. I recall it used "more" than in the summer but I couldn't guess what percentage that equates to.

 

[TrvlBug]

So far, my favorite CES ridiculosity is the Oral-B toothbrush. No price yet, but the previous version was $300 and was much less capable.

This would be perfect for DH...seriously!!! His hygienist is constantly telling him he is brushing too hard and needs a lighter touch. With 3 implants already, cost for this is in the noise .

 

[NW-Bound]

I agree with NW-Bound, it seems odd (but not impossible!) for an advance like this to come out w/o other groups doing something similar. Gates and Bezos involvement is a good sign, but I'm sure they've backed many promising things that never made it into production - that's how it goes.

Though the CEO, Mujeeb Ijaz , has been with A123 Systems (makers of lithium cells - but they went bankrupt...), and Apple power Systems (have they delivered anything like a 'PowerWall'?).

From a search, they describe the battery pack that they put into this test Tesla as two separate technologies:

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/43737/tesla-model-s-goes-752-miles-on-startups-battery-swap

The only way that makes sense to me, is if the larger battery is very good at energy density, but not so good on instantaneous power delivery. If that's the case, the large pack could keep the small pack topped off with a fairly constant power delivery between the battery and propelling the car, and the small pack would handle acceleration and regen braking.

So just maybe, other companies were so focused on energy density, that they rejected this technology due to not-so-great power delivery? So this 'hybrid' approach could be something that works out?

-ERD50

OK, that linked article in thedrive.com has some real info. Here's the gist.

That startup company, Our Next Energy (ONE), stuffed a Tesla Model S with a battery of 203.7 kWh, while Tesla's largest battery is only 100 kWh. So, ONE can get a range of 753 miles at a low speed of 55 mph. Yes, they use a smaller battery with high energy but low capacity for acceleration, in conjunction with a larger battery with lower energy but high-capacity storage for range. No words on how large and heavy that hybrid battery is relative to the production Tesla battery.

The same article says that the Mercedes Vision EQXX prototype can get 620 miles out of a battery of 100 kWh. It's far superior mileage with a design for low weight and aero drag, but another article in autoevolution.com points out that the design ideas are not amenable to a practical production car.

See: https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...-efficiency-in-controversial-ways-178393.html

 

[cbo111]

What would the battery consumption be if you camped for 24 hours in temps ranging from 15F to 25F and wanted to stay warm?

Here is a YouTube link to a test from a Tesla owner. His car was parked outside with temps in the 20's F. The interior was set to about 68 deg F. The car was able to maintain this temp in "camp mode" for about 70 hours.
https://youtu.be/bpzB3RbjuHI

 

[MRG]

+1

I'll test!

It's 28°F outside I parked my 2020 Model Y performance outside in the shade at 4pm. The battery was at 84% when I moved it, the climate is set to 65°F, and both the front seat heaters are on low. Not balmy but we're not going to freeze any body parts. No preconditioning of the battery was done. No reason I can't let it outside tonight, the forcast is a low of 16°F.[emoji4]

The vehicle was being repaired after hitting a deer last November but I did get it back in February and made a couple 100 mile round trips I'm familiar with. I recall it used "more" than in the summer but I couldn't guess what percentage that equates to.

Ran test for 4 hours, the app shuts down in 2. Starting outside temperatures at 28°F ending at 7°F. Starting charge was 84% ending at 74%. So 24 hours would be a ~60% drain under those conditions.

If you're driving in cold conditions you should carry cold weather emergency supplies like blankets, hats, gloves, water..... Tesla says the seat heaters are more efficient than keeping the cabin heated.

 

[ejman]

Here is a YouTube link to a test from a Tesla owner. His car was parked outside with temps in the 20's F. The interior was set to about 68 deg F. The car was able to maintain this temp in "camp mode" for about 70 hours.
https://youtu.be/bpzB3RbjuHI

I wonder if an ICE car would be able to idle for 70 hours to keep the inside temp at 68 deg F. on one tank of gas?

 

[ejman]

I wonder if an ICE car would be able to idle for 70 hours to keep the inside temp at 68 deg F. on one tank of gas?

To answer my own question, I just googled it, a Ford explorer would last 33 hours on a full tank of gas. https://www.autotrader.ca/newsfeatures/20190201/how-long-can-you-stay-warm-on-a-tank-of-gas/

 

[explanade]

I wonder if an ICE car would be able to idle for 70 hours to keep the inside temp at 68 deg F. on one tank of gas?

Is it running forced-air heater or just the seat heaters?

 

[Chuckanut]

I wonder if an ICE car would be able to idle for 70 hours to keep the inside temp at 68 deg F. on one tank of gas?

Assuming a full tank of gas a high mileage car might be able to do so. Just rev it up once an hour.

Years ago a local DJ (Sweet Brother Dick Wittington on KGIL) did a promotion with a Datsun dealer (now Nissan) called something like Around the World on One Tank of Gas. They started the Datsun up when his plane left the ground at LAX. He took a number of flights around the world until he returned to LA. IIRC, in the approximately two days it took him, the Datsun used well under a 1/2 tank of gas. A car sitting and idling uses very little fuel.

Off topic note:

While at KGIL (1260), he organized an “invasion” of Santa Catalina Island, leading soldiers dressed in uniforms from “the war of their choice.” Another time he staged a “paint-off” in the station’s parking lot, then flew to Paris with the winner to hang the picture in the men’s room at the Louvre.

 

[Koolau]

Ran test for 4 hours, the app shuts down in 2. Starting outside temperatures at 28°F ending at 7°F. Starting charge was 84% ending at 74%. So 24 hours would be a ~60% drain under those conditions.

If you're driving in cold conditions you should carry cold weather emergency supplies like blankets, hats, gloves, water..... Tesla says the seat heaters are more efficient than keeping the cabin heated.

Thanks for the test. I'll report it to son who has Mod. 3. I worry about our 2YO Grand Daughter. Fortunately, son is very smart and always carries extra stuff for her.

I'm thinking if one thought it was going to be a very long time before road-resolution, one could stretch the battery - as you mentioned, using seats only. Also, wearing more clothes and keeping car significantly cooler. I'm betting ICE folks go through the same issues when stuck in the snow/ice/etc. Big difference is the ease of delivering fuel to an ICE vs to an EV though YMMV.

 

[Samsung4321]

If you're driving in cold conditions you should carry cold weather emergency supplies like blankets, hats, gloves, water..... Tesla says the seat heaters are more efficient than keeping the cabin heated.

At least appropriate jacket, socks, gloves and beanie. And enough peanut paste for emergency food.

I wonder if an ICE car would be able to idle for 70 hours to keep the inside temp at 68 deg F. on one tank of gas?

My Ford Territory 4.0L 6 cylinder engine consumes 1.3L/h, fuel 90L; Last 69h. More likely run AC under the blazing noonday sun to reduce heat stroke.

 

[NW-Bound]

Here is a YouTube link to a test from a Tesla owner. His car was parked outside with temps in the 20's F. The interior was set to about 68 deg F. The car was able to maintain this temp in "camp mode" for about 70 hours.
https://youtu.be/bpzB3RbjuHI

Ran test for 4 hours, the app shuts down in 2. Starting outside temperatures at 28°F ending at 7°F. Starting charge was 84% ending at 74%. So 24 hours would be a ~60% drain under those conditions...

60% drain in 24 hours -> 100% drain in 40 hours.

70 hours vs. 40 hours? Looks like the test conditions are not the same.

PS. OK, one is at temperatures in the 20F, while the 2nd one is as low as 7F.

 

[ERD50]

I wonder if an ICE car would be able to idle for 70 hours to keep the inside temp at 68 deg F. on one tank of gas?

To answer my own question, I just googled it, a Ford explorer would last 33 hours on a full tank of gas. https://www.autotrader.ca/newsfeatures/20190201/how-long-can-you-stay-warm-on-a-tank-of-gas/

Your ref uses 0.6 liters/per hour per Liter of engine displacement.
The references I found were about half that -

Based on work developed by Argonne National Laboratory, the idle fuel consumption rate with no load (no use of accessories such as air conditioners, fans, etc.) varies widely. Compact cars with 2-liter engines consume about 0.16 gallons per hour.

That's .08gph per liter displacement, or 0.36 Liters per hour per liter of displacement.

Plus, you wouldn't need to run the engine constantly to keep the car heated. An engine will retain much of its heat for 20 minutes, so starting it every 20 minutes could probably get it toasty warm again in a short time, and carry you over for the next 20 minutes.

But the EV numbers look pretty good too. But as some people pointed out in some of the articles on this I95 scenario - what if the Telsa was on its way to a charging station, and got caught at a low charge? Sure, that could happen with an ICE, but in a storm, the ICE driver would be more likely to stop at any gas station to top off, while the Tesla has to make it to the next Supercharger, which might not leave him with much excess capacity.

-ERD50

 

[Fermion]

That is kind of what concerns me right now. If I am going across the I-90 pass and it gets closed for a few hours (it is fully closed right now because of snow but sometimes you get stuck in traffic there for avalanche control or something). If I can find a EV station at the summit (maybe they have or will have a row of supercharging stations there?) what will be the waiting time if 50 to 100 other EV drivers also need to charge up?

 

[misanman]

The technology is likely to evolve rapidly. Forecasting outcomes using static technology is more likely to predict outcomes that do not eventuate. Almost better to assume that R&D will, with a lag, provide technology that at least makes EVs competitive with ICE in all manners.

I was recently with a BIL who has worked with gas station companies over the last few years to design new gas stations. I asked him if the new gas stations were being designed to support electric vehicle charging and he said no, that charging technology is still going through a lot of change. Charging stations similar to Teslas require a very large investment in electrical infrastructure. He's suggested Freewire DC to DC charging but so far the stations are reluctant to commit to a specific EV charging infrastructure. He said Freewire is being widely deployed in Europe.

 

[Samsung4321]

That's .08gph per liter displacement, or 0.36 Liters per hour per liter of displacement.
-ERD50

0.36 / 0.08 = 4.5 ; that is Litres / Imperial gallon.

3.7853 Litres / USA 'short changed' gallon.

0.08 USA gallons = 0.303L.

My machine theoretically: 4.0L * 0.303L/h = 1.212L/h ; actually 1.3L/h. Near enough.

1.3L/h * 8.9 kWh/L = 11.6 kW ; very inefficient heating.

 

[Samsung4321]

I-90 pass ... what will be the waiting time if 50 to 100 other EV drivers also need to charge up?

'11 public charging station ports (Level 2 and Level 3) within 15km'

https://chargehub.com/en/countries/united-states/washington/snoqualmie-pass.html?city_id=2551

 

[NW-Bound]

I was recently with a BIL who has worked with gas station companies over the last few years to design new gas stations. I asked him if the new gas stations were being designed to support electric vehicle charging and he said no, that charging technology is still going through a lot of change. Charging stations similar to Teslas require a very large investment in electrical infrastructure. He's suggested Freewire DC to DC charging but so far the stations are reluctant to commit to a specific EV charging infrastructure. He said Freewire is being widely deployed in Europe.

Below is a photo of a 1-MW substation I found in a Web page by https://transformers-magazine.com/.

This can power 10 superchargers at 100 kW a piece, or 5 superchargers at 200 kW each.

 

[cbo111]

60% drain in 24 hours -> 100% drain in 40 hours.

70 hours vs. 40 hours? Looks like the test conditions are not the same.

PS. OK, one is at temperatures in the 20F, while the 2nd one is as low as 7F.

I found this post on Reddit Tesla Model Y group from someone with real-world experience on the 95 event.

I shared this in another tesla group and I hope someone here may find it helpful. Monday at around 5pm I was in traffic heading home on 95 south in Virginia and got stuck due to the snow storm. I ended up stuck in traffic for 16hrs! Thank goodness for my tesla. I was initially at 74% when the jam started and when I was able to get home I was around 61%. It was a nightmare being stuck in the traffic jam but I’m glad I was stuck in my tesla. I turned on camp mode and napped for a bit. I hope this is helpful to anyone and I’m praying for all those still without power in Virginia. I still don’t have power so when it gets too cold my partner and I will likely sleep in my car. It’s currently at 56%.
Edit to include: I have a 2022 MYP If that makes a difference