Kids in graduate school

[Stormy Kromer]

OK,

I have a situation that I shouldn't whine about, but it troubles me.

DW and I have 2 kids. We gave each of them $80K to get trough college. DS is the oldest, he went to tech school and is a very accomplished diesel mechanic. He didn't need all of his 80K and we gave him the rest to buy a house. Great guy, doing well.

DD is also a great person. Went to tech school out of High School, got a degree in Pharm tech and made a modest living, realized she wanted more and went to get a 4 year degree which she will finish this year at the same time her $80 grand runs out. 4 year degree with no debt at all.

All is great....

She wants to pursue a degree in Dentist School. I couldn't be more proud but I can't afford it. I see that the average Dentist graduate has loans of around $400,000.

I got her through a 4 year degree which is all I ever planned on. I don't want to quash her ability and tell her I can't afford to help her anymore. But I can't. If I did I would be taking out of deep reserve from out retirement fund which she would likely inherit anyway...

I'm proud of her, but I don't know if I can afford to help her reach her dreams.

I ask you on this forum, only if you have been in this situation. How far should I promise help as a parent. Keep in mind we have another child who has received the same help to date and doesn't need help anymore.

Myself....I grew up on a farm with depression era parents and was glad I got to finish High School. I had $212 when I left home on my own in 1984. I want what I can give my children without spoiling them or tanking our ER.

Can you believe Dental School costs $400K ( in state, $600 out of state) ? I've checked. it's real

She's smart and has a chance to reach her dream to be a Dentist. I don't want her to remember me as the old guy (56) that wouldn't help her when she needed it and die and leave a pile of money after I die and she doesn't need it...I just don't have the cash flow to help her not and ensure my FIRE.

I didn't plan on graduate school when I was saving for her 529. I'f glad she could get a 4 year degree without debt. I give her credit she worked all through school to help with living expenses.
. We did cover all her tuition.
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Only if you've been there.....How do you handle a child's graduate schools' cost ? Again... please only of you've been there with other children in the picture.

Thanks everyone.

 

[Jerry1]

I’ve been there done that. Told DD that I was not paying for more than a Bachelor degree. Nothing to feel guilty about.

I also have something to add about being a dentist. There’s probably ways to get to be a DDS for less than $400K but don’t worry about it. I have a friend that is a dentist. As a young accountant I did her books for her starting out. She grew out of my comfort zone and I shifted her accounting to my old firm. Point is that I can tell you without reservation, a dentist can pay off $400K in student loans many times over in her career. If she’s a good entrepreneur even better.

Your job is done. There are and will be plenty of other ways you can help. Risking your retirement is not one of them.

 

[savory]

This is what my daughter joined and she made money. She is an RN. It was a little confusing if there is a hold on dental degrees right now but she can check it out. https://www.usphs.gov/professions/dentist/

I coincidentally just talk to a guy whose daughter joined the navy and will get her medical degree while serving. She approached it that way in order to pay her own way.

DD likes the USPHS and will likely serve her 20 year and out service.

 

[Philliefan33]

Don’t feel guilty for not funding dental school for your DD. You’ve given her a head start by funding the undergrad degree.

One of my nieces is a dentist. She took on scary debt to fund dental school and living expenses while in school, but now four years after graduating she seems to be doing very well. New house, nanny to watch the kids while she and her husband are at work, and she just bought a practice. (Pretty sure she needed financing for the practice.)

 

[pacergal]

You did well to get your kids through their chosen undergrad with NO DEBT. That is a very big accomplishment these days.
Your daughter is an adult and able to make adult decisions. The only thing I would recommend is to sit down and discuss impact of loan repayment, and make sure she understands before she takes out loans.

Dentists have an opportunity to make really good money in practice. I would imagine she will be OK.

 

[Out of Steam]

OK,

Can you believe Dental School costs $400K ( in state, $600 out of state) ? I've checked. it's real.

I have a former colleague who is still working at 73 to help finance two sons through medical school and advancing into fellowships, paying their living expenses rather than tuition. Saw him at a funeral a few weeks ago, and he said I bailed from the organization at the right time (late 2019).

We did give our daughter the remaining $15K of her undergraduate budget to spend on a masters degree, which she has completed.

If you do choose to help her, living expenses are probably easier to assist with than tuition, because they can include things like used cars and other non-cash help.

 

[Out of Steam]

One factor in dental economics long-term is that those of us who went through childhood without fluoridated water are aging out. There's a huge difference in dental needs between my youngest sister and her husband, who had it, and us older siblings who didn't.

 

[pacergal]

Added note (because you asked for personal)
We told our two kids we would only pay for two year community college, because that is all we could afford at the time. We also told them that IF we could afford it, we would help with loan repayment after graduation.
Fast forward--DS got BS and MSx2, he got scholarships and loans. We helped pay monthly amount for a while, then we were able to help him pay off his loans several years ago. He was very shocked and very appreciative we did that, as he was not expecting it.
DD finished two year AA degree, debt free. Has not decided to pursue further college at this time, had two kids and is SAHM. If she does go back , we will do the same, Expect her to take out loans or find scholarships, we will help pay back if we can (thankfully, most likely will be able too, if price is reasonable )

At $400,000 price tag, that would be way beyond what we could afford, also.
So if this was our child, we would not be able to help.

Does your daughter expect you to take on that cost?

 

[daylatedollarshort]

We offered to pay for a 4 year degrees, with a car thrown in if they went to community college for two of those years, though because of financial aid we didn't have to pay much out of pocket.

I personally wouldn't offer to pay for dental school for our kids at $400K. We've got the savings, could do it, but I wouldn't help support or encourage a degree requiring that high a cost like that. Beside the cost then there are usually a lot of start up costs posts college as well in setting up or buying a practice. We do plan to help with houses and probably would consider helping with something like an engineering or CS graduate degree if they asked, since those cost a lot less and would have a higher ROI.

 

[youbet]

I hesitate to respond since my son's grad school (MS in ME) was mostly funded by the MegaCorp where he was employed at the time. But, without a doubt, I would have helped him financially if needed. I was still working at the time and was making a good buck. Helping him (paying it all) would have set my FIRE back a year or so. He was already married with a family so there were limits as to what he would be able to handle financially in addition to giving up a bunch of family time.

Since MegaCorp picked up most of the costs, I gave of my time helping with chores around his house, running errands, kid-ferrying, etc. With DS working full time as an engineer, DIL also working full time as an engineer and with 3 kids (one with special needs), there was plenty for me to do to help out!

Perhaps you could find non-financial ways to help your daughter? And remember, helping her doesn't necessarily mean footing the entire bill. She could make plans to borrow what she needs after aid and you could chip in a bit (if possible) as she goes along. It wouldn't have to be much to mean a lot to both of you.

Your $400k figure may be a bit high.


https://www.collegeavestudentloans....tal-school-cost-average-degree-tuition-costs/

Total Cost of Dental School
Over four years, a dental student can expect to pay anywhere from $151,508 (in-state, public school) to $268,348 (private school) and up. If you’re going right from undergrad to dental school, tacking on these costs probably sounds daunting. But according to BLS, the median salary of a dentist is $156,240, and the top earners make more than $208,000 per year. There are also many options for paying for dental school. Specialized loans, grants, scholarships, and affordable programs can make payment easier and automatic.

https://www.bankrate.com/loans/student-loans/average-dental-school-debt/

How much debt do dentists have?
According to the American Dental Education Association (ADEA), the average dental school debt for the class of 2020 was $304,824, making it one of the most expensive degrees you can get. Fortunately, dentists also have a high ceiling when it comes to salaries.Sep 10, 2021

Fortunately you live in Minnesota where the Univ of Minn offers a highly ranked program at one of the lowest costs for in-state students.

https://joinjuno.com/financial-lite...ental-school-costs-at-the-10-top-universities

As a public university, tuition at the University of Minnesota-Twin Cities is significantly cheaper if you live within the state. The tuition for in-state students was $38,479, while out-of-state students were charged $71,284.


University of Minnesota Twin Cities

Minneapolis, Minnesota

Public

$38,479 (plus room and board)

So, at least IMHO, your daughter can go to dental school. She needs to be very intelligent, personable, entrepreneural-minded and ready to embrace the challenge of some tough schooling. Then she has to run a business (or find work with a dental services provider) that pays enough that she can lead a nice life while paying back some big loans.

You don't need to feel bad that you can't afford to pick up several $100k for her. Most dental school students do it on loans so she'd be typical, not an exception. But if you can help even a tiny bit financially and dedicate some time to being helpful, she's going to appreciate it.

It sounds like you have a great family. Good luck with all of this!

 

[youbet]

probably would consider helping with something like an engineering or CS graduate degree if they asked, since those cost a lot less and would have a higher ROI.

Really? How do you know? Have you seen some data?

 

[livingalmostlarge]

So congrats on getting your daughter through undergrad and your son through trade school. They sounds like successful young adults. Take my perspective as different from those above I want to help my kids but I don't think or believe anyone is required to do so.

That being said I would say it depends on you. How old are you? How close to FIRE? If it were me? I was that kid and I'm not resentful to my parents for not helping though they probably could have. But I know that my siblings somewhat are but there was a divorce in there so it contributed to the problems.

My in-laws? Are going to die multi-millionaires over never having gifted us anything including a baby or wedding gift or birthday gifts for DH and the kids. Although they did start in the last year or two finally (my kids are 12 and 9). I got nicer presents from DH's aunts/uncles/grandmother for getting married and having a baby. Considering how poor my side is/was and I am appreciative of $20 from my grandmother, trust me it's hard to not be snide to my in-laws. My family was poor and they celebrate with us. My in-laws? Well a cup of hot chocolate was too much.

That being said I think that rather than inheriting a large fortune giving along the way to help when it would be most beneficial would be best. I also would probably delay my retirement to help my kid and give equal share. How much? I don't know that's on you.

How much were you thinking? How much would affect your FIRE? Would it cause you to delay fire by 1-2 years? Would it be the end of the world if it did? Guess real world numbers might give us a better perspective.

If you said I want to give each kid $15k/year and it's not going to impact FIRE fine. I want to pay 100% and pay $100k so $200k/total a year also fine. And it delays my fire by 4 years also fine. I don't think we can tell you the right or wrong answer.

 

[MarieIG]

I would not make her ANY promises - and I would NOT co-sign any loans.

I too paid for undergrad state schools (with room and board if necessary) but advised flat out I was not paying for more expensive schools or co-signing loans - for anything.

Help out here and there when you can.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

Really? How do you know? Have you seen some data?

I actually did the math because I used to date a dental student!

 

[youbet]

I actually did the math because I used to date a dental student!

I guess that proves that love is blind!

I did the math too and didn't find that the ROI on an engineering or CS MS is higher than the ROI on a DDS. But there are lots of assumptions that need to be made which would highly influence the outcome. So, who knows?

 

[euro]

I hesitate to respond since my son's grad school (MS in ME) was mostly funded by the MegaCorp where he was employed at the time. But, without a doubt, I would have helped him financially if needed. I was still working at the time and was making a good buck. Helping him (paying it all) would have set my FIRE back a year or so. He was already married with a family so there were limits as to what he would be able to handle financially in addition to giving up a bunch of family time.

Since MegaCorp picked up most of the costs, I gave of my time helping with chores around his house, running errands, kid-ferrying, etc. With DS working full time as an engineer, DIL also working full time as an engineer and with 3 kids (one with special needs), there was plenty for me to do to help out!

Perhaps you could find non-financial ways to help your daughter? And remember, helping her doesn't necessarily mean footing the entire bill. She could make plans to borrow what she needs after aid and you could chip in a bit (if possible) as she goes along. It wouldn't have to be much to mean a lot to both of you.

Your $400k figure may be a bit high.


https://www.collegeavestudentloans....tal-school-cost-average-degree-tuition-costs/




https://www.bankrate.com/loans/student-loans/average-dental-school-debt/




Fortunately you live in Minnesota where the Univ of Minn offers a highly ranked program at one of the lowest costs for in-state students.

https://joinjuno.com/financial-lite...ental-school-costs-at-the-10-top-universities



So, at least IMHO, your daughter can go to dental school. She needs to be very intelligent, personable, entrepreneural-minded and ready to embrace the challenge of some tough schooling. Then she has to run a business (or find work with a dental services provider) that pays enough that she can lead a nice life while paying back some big loans.

You don't need to feel bad that you can't afford to pick up several $100k for her. Most dental school students do it on loans so she'd be typical, not an exception. But if you can help even a tiny bit financially and dedicate some time to being helpful, she's going to appreciate it.

It sounds like you have a great family. Good luck with all of this!

Not sure I understand all the numbers you quoted but I can tell you from personal experience that $150k will be best case scenario, "tuition only" expense. It will not include significant fees, books, equipment, etc. It will not include any living expenses. For our state dental school in NC, the tuition and fees number is pretty much $200k. Then, whatever the living expenses are for 4 years. Note, additional Summer Semesters can be mandatory, so you can't rely on side-jobs. Dental School is a fulltime effort, not like regular college.
My DD finished in-state dental school a couple of years ago, and the $400k may be a LITTLE bit high, but not by much for the total expense.
I do agree that dentists get paid enough to easily manage that debt (assuming they actually finish dental school - if they drop out early, then all bets are off).
Note that there are a fair number of scholarship options, most are just a few thousand bucks but don't take a huge effort to apply for. Every little bit helps.
As someone already pointed out, the Armed Forces will happily put you through dental school. In fact, I had a tenant in one of my rentals who did dental school exactly that way: free tuition and a pretty generous living allowance. BUT: had to make a commitment to stay in the Armed Forces for several (5?) years after graduation. Great program for the right situational fit though.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

I guess that proves that love is blind!

I did the math too and didn't find that the ROI on an engineering or CS MS is higher than the ROI on a DDS. But there are lots of assumptions that need to be made which would highly influence the outcome. So, who knows?

The average tech worker here makes $160K. Most probably have 4 year degrees. Average dentist salary seems to be that or a bit more, and then there is the cost of extra years in school, the opportunity cost of not making a high salary while in school, and start up costs. Our kids had no interest in any healthcare field so it wasn't really an issue for us.

I don't think I'm the only person hesitant to marry someone with a huge amount of debt, especially when I had none after graduating from college.

 

[Jerry1]

The average tech worker here makes $160K. Most probably have 4 year degrees. Average dentist salary seems to be that or a bit more,

When I stopped doing my friends books several years ago, she was making (paying taxes on) over $400K. There’s an entire business a dentist can run. She had four hygienists that were constantly busy she had another dentist that was getting started so was paying her a percentage of his book. The other dentist eventually became a full partner and thats when I stopped doing her books. Since then, her lifestyle has only gotten better. I’m sure she’s making as much or more and now and, in her early 50’s is working less hours. She may be an exception, but a dentist can make some serious coin. It’s a profession and a business.

 

[youbet]

My DD finished in-state dental school a couple of years ago, and the $400k may be a LITTLE bit high, but not by much for the total expense.
I do agree that dentists get paid enough to easily manage that debt

Well, I said "a bit high" and you say "a LITTLE bit high." We're kinda splittin' hairs here, huh?

I was just trying to give some examples where it seemed like the total number for 4 years might be closer to $300k than $400k, a significant difference especially if most of it is loan and you're paying interest while paying it off.

Just scanning the articles I quoted from and from the figures you gave from your actual experience:

For 4 years:

Tuition: $160k
Fees: $60k
Living: $100k

Total: $320k

But, setting those details aside, my point was if OP's daughter really wants to do this, it's possible. And if OP can offer just a tad bit of financial help and maybe some non-financial help based on his available time and skill sets, I say go for it. And OP should feel proud of what he's already done for his DD and that whatever he can do in the future, however minor, is just icing on the cake. I'm betting she'll know and understand this.

OP lives in Minnesota which is why I quoted the Univ of Mn costs. Wouldn't it be fortunate if they lived close enough that DD could live at home and commute?

It all bears checking out.

Congrats on your daughter's accomplishment!

 

[euro]

Well, I said "a bit high" and you say "a LITTLE bit high." We're kinda splittin' hairs here, huh?

I was just trying to give some examples where it seemed like the total number for 4 years might be closer to $300k than $400k, a significant difference especially if most of it is loan and you're paying interest while paying it off.

Just scanning the articles I quoted from and from the figures you gave from your actual experience:

For 4 years:

Tuition: $160k
Fees: $60k
Living: $100k

Total: $320k

But, setting those details aside, my point was if OP's daughter really wants to do this, it's possible. And if OP can offer just a tad bit of financial help and maybe some non-financial help based on his available time and skill sets, I say go for it. And OP should feel proud of what he's already done for his DD and that whatever he can do in the future, however minor, is just icing on the cake.

OP lives in Minnesota which is why I quoted the Univ of Mn costs. Wouldn't it be fortunate if they lived close enough that DD could live at home and commute?

It all bears checking out.

Congrats on your daughter's accomplishment!

We are in complete agreement on ALL your points! I WAS able to help my DD: she lived rent-free in one of my rental properties near the university - made a big difference to her. Also, as I eluded to, she was able to harvest quite a few of those small dentistry-specific scholarships totaling many thousands of dollars each year.
By all means, OP: Your daughter should pursue this, hook or crook!

 

[youbet]

When I stopped doing my friends books several years ago, she was making (paying taxes on) over $400K. There’s an entire business a dentist can run. She had four hygienists that were constantly busy she had another dentist that was getting started so was paying her a percentage of his book. The other dentist eventually became a full partner and thats when I stopped doing her books. Since then, her lifestyle has only gotten better. I’m sure she’s making as much or more and now and, in her early 50’s is working less hours. She may be an exception, but a dentist can make some serious coin. It’s a profession and a business.

+1

My cousin (now deceased) got his DDS via the Air Force. He and his DW saved enough during the Air Force years for him to get orthodontist credentials following the Air Force stint. Then he went into private practice and also started teaching on the adjunct faculty at the Northwestern Univ dental school. He hired two dentists and a fleet of hygienists. He opened his own lab doing braces and dentures for his own practice and for other practices. His son became a dental tech and eventually managed the lab.

When he passed in his 70's, he was a very wealthy man. I have no idea how good or bad an orthodontist he was. He must have been OK but I don't personally know. But I do know he sure was a businessman! And a really personable, nice guy.

 

[Aerides]

My niece is currently a college undergrad (sophomore) but angling for potential grad school, etc.

My sister, her Mom, is reluctant and I'm supporting her, in that she will then have her son in college too, and had only ever planned, 529'd etc., for undergrad. We're both of the mindset she should graduate and then work in the field for a year or so first, and then see for sure that's what she wants. It's also medical, so some sort of assistant role. And perhaps, in her case, find a job that will support her for further education.

It's one thing to say you want to be a dentist. It's another to say you'll happily spend hours every day in front of open mouths with issues...

 

[youbet]

The average tech worker here makes $160K. Most probably have 4 year degrees. Average dentist salary seems to be that or a bit more, and then there is the cost of extra years in school, the opportunity cost of not making a high salary while in school, and start up costs.

I don't really care what you say daylate, I'm not letting your tech worker stick his/her hands in my mouth regardless of their salary. Forget it!

 

[youbet]

I don't think I'm the only person hesitant to marry someone with a huge amount of debt, especially when I had none after graduating from college.

Oh boy, I made a big mistake and showed your post to my DW. When we married 52 years ago, she had a HUGE student debt. Inflation adjusted = $73,430 in 2021 dollars, or about double her annual starting salary. We just buckled down and paid it off. I was never a bit hesitant to marry her (at 22 years old) based on the fact her parents could not afford to help her at all and she attended school on grants, loans and campus jobs. DW says she's glad I didn't think like you........ we've had a pretty nice life together. But, yeah, I agree you're probably not the only person that thinks that way.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

When I stopped doing my friends books several years ago, she was making (paying taxes on) over $400K. There’s an entire business a dentist can run. She had four hygienists that were constantly busy she had another dentist that was getting started so was paying her a percentage of his book. The other dentist eventually became a full partner and thats when I stopped doing her books. Since then, her lifestyle has only gotten better. I’m sure she’s making as much or more and now and, in her early 50’s is working less hours. She may be an exception, but a dentist can make some serious coin. It’s a profession and a business.

Sure, some dentists make $400K, some tech workers also make $400K and millions in stock options. But if you are looking at data and ROI, then you have to use a standard way like average or median salaries to do the comparisons.