Brokered CD's in Rising Interest Rate

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Recycles dryer sheets
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So as not to clutter the bond fund thread would like people's insights into Brokered CD's with 2 to 5 year Brokered CD's nearing 3% or slightly more in some cases. I understand the interest is only tax deductible at state level.

Some are callable at 100% principal return and interest earned to date at some set time before full maturity. This is clearly marked at Vangaurd site.

I understand they are subject to some market variation if sold before or not held to term.

Anything else to be aware of? Seem like a reasonable component to the cash/bond portion of the portfolio at these rates? Or maybe all of it. Maybe start building a ladder over next couple years. I always assumed in my model that my cash/bond allocation returned around 3% ish so this seems like a pretty safe option for that.

Portfolio is right now 70 % VTI (dropping daily) and 30 % cash (Was a muni fund). Could live off 4% right now but partner still working for next 3 to 5 years.
 
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So as not to clutter the bond fund thread would like people's insights into Brokered CD's with 2 to 5 year Brokered CD's nearing 3% or slightly more in some cases. I understand the interest is only tax deductible at state level.

I understand the interest is only tax deductible at state level.


Are you sure about that in your state? In my state, I typically have to pay state income taxes on brokered CDs. It's the treasuries that I don't have to pay state income tax on the income.
 
I always assumed in my model that my cash/bond allocation returned around 3% ish so this seems like a pretty safe option for that.

Did you also assume the level of inflation we are experiencing right now? Personally, if I was going to buy CD’s or bonds right now, I’d keep the duration very short - two years or less.
 
Are you sure about that in your state? In my state, I typically have to pay state income taxes on brokered CDs. It's the treasuries that I don't have to pay state income tax on the income.

Ooops, corrected, you are right, was confusing with treasuries in my head. Inflation is not factored into this discussion at moment, at least as it pertains to any nuances of CD's. My withdrawal rate or lack of at moment (living off partner wages 3 to 5 years) is flexible and fine.

Agreed was thinking nothing longer than 2 years.
 
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Were it me, instead of a brokered CD, and if I was looking for a 2-3 yr investment, I'd purchase a 3 year treasury that is currently yielding 2.865% (free of state tax). You can buy them directly on the Vanguard site. If you buy them at the periodic auctions you can avoid the bid/ask spread difference that will slightly reduce the yield.

Actually, I'd wait another 10 days to see what the Fed does in early May...and if the amount I was looking to invest was small ($10K or less) I'd buy an I-Bond if I hadn't already done so this year.
 
I-bonds full. Assuming state tax neutrality why a treasury over CD, rates are practically identical at 3 years? Educate please.

Agreed on timing, I was thinking several tranches of them over next 6 to 12 months. They may hit 4 to 5% if we are lucky.
 
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I-bonds full. Assuming state tax neutrality why a treasury over CD, rates are practically identical at 3 years? Educate please.

Agreed on timing, I was thinking several tranches of them over next 6 to 12 months. They may hit 4 to 5% if we are lucky.

Treasuries are highly liquid. CDs would take a hit if you had to sell them.
 
The brokered CD’s are looking better esp if I buy at Fido since I already have an account there. I prefer MYGA (5 yrs @ 3.6) BUT they are lousy if there’s any chance of early redemption. For me I’d rank Treasuries and MYGA’s ahead of brokered CD’s
 
The brokered CD’s are looking better esp if I buy at Fido since I already have an account there. I prefer MYGA (5 yrs @ 3.6) BUT they are lousy if there’s any chance of early redemption. For me I’d rank Treasuries and MYGA’s ahead of brokered CD’s


Assuming rates equal for theoretical, would you still rate higher and why?
 
Assuming rates equal for theoretical, would you still rate higher and why?



For equal rates, rank order is Treasuries, CD’s (brokered or not), then MYGA. Buying MYGA’s is a process and surrender fees are massive. The ones at Fido are blue chip issuers only and the rates tend to be on the low side but maybe they are catching up.
 
I know I'm in the minority here but I don't agree with the go short term plan. I prefer to diversify my duration. My current avg maturity now sits at 3.9 years spread over 14 years of CD's and Treasuries. I will admit this is still a much lower duration and maturity than a TBM fund. But that's what matches my plan. Since I have a specific need for funds in the future I prefer to match my holdings to my needs rather than speculate about rates. If you go short term it's an endless game. What if overall rates drop again in 2 years?

As far as CD's vs Treasuries either can work. My past experience is that Treasuries are easier to trade if you're not holding to maturity. Personally I'm going with Treasury Strips which match my future withdrawals. However, since they are being bought from a CD ladder I've had in place for years, it will be gradual. Also I hold a big chunk of Series I bonds I've accumulated over the years. My only advice is to look at the big picture and diversify over the long term. Otherwise it will drive you nuts. FWIW I spend a heck of a lot more time on this site than required to maintain my bond portfolio. :)
 
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Until last year I was for the CDs ladder - the safest investment and for 5 years CD rates were well over 2%. However, current inflation vs CD rate is at high loss. 2-3% vs inflation 8.5%. What do you think will happen when the Feds will aggressively raise the interest rate? The Market already started adjustment yesterday. Than the question is what is more important for the Feds: fight the inflation or economy what might turn South to the recession?
 
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Until last year I was for the CDs ladder - the safest investment and for 5 years CD rates were well over 2%. However, current inflation vs CD rate is at high loss. 2-3% vs inflation 8.5%. What do you think will happen when the Feds will aggressively raise the interest rate? The Market already started adjustment yesterday. Than the question is what is more important for the Feds: fight the inflation or economy what might turn South to the recession?

Right, but I don't see a better option for some traditional stock / bond (Cash, Cd, treasury) portfolio.

I run a 70/30 VTI/Bond fund mix typically, with the 30 currently sitting in cash. Not comfortable raising equity chunk and basically just trying to optimize the 30%. Your point is not missed, inflation sucks no matter which choice we make.

My modeling always assumed roughly a 3% return on the non equity portion or the portfolio. I can survive if less or more, so right now CD's seem to offer a better proposition. That said when they are finally done raising rates, who knows.

I'm lucky I have 3 to 5 years of partner working still, so part of me says wait for a bit more stock market dump and raise the equity allocation too. Who knows, it's all timing and not ideal.
 
For equal rates, rank order is Treasuries, CD’s (brokered or not), then MYGA. Buying MYGA’s is a process and surrender fees are massive. The ones at Fido are blue chip issuers only and the rates tend to be on the low side but maybe they are catching up.

Since Fidelity mainly only gets involved with A++ companies for MYGA, their rates will not logically match Americo @3.60% for 5 years, as they are A rated.
So it depends how low is willing to go on the ratings.
 
Since Fidelity mainly only gets involved with A++ companies for MYGA, their rates will not logically match Americo @3.60% for 5 years, as they are A rated.

So it depends how low is willing to go on the ratings.



Agree 100%. I’m guessing the process at Fido ‘might’ also be a bit smoother than Blueprint Income /Americo. Moving IRA funds around I have experienced issues about 30% of the time. As for risk I am very comfortable with a B+ rating. My ladder rungs are moderate so that offsets the risk.
 
Right, but I don't see a better option for some traditional stock / bond (Cash, Cd, treasury) portfolio.

I run a 70/30 VTI/Bond fund mix typically, with the 30 currently sitting in cash. Not comfortable raising equity chunk and basically just trying to optimize the 30%. Your point is not missed, inflation sucks no matter which choice we make.

My modeling always assumed roughly a 3% return on the non equity portion or the portfolio. I can survive if less or more, so right now CD's seem to offer a better proposition. That said when they are finally done raising rates, who knows.

I'm lucky I have 3 to 5 years of partner working still, so part of me says wait for a bit more stock market dump and raise the equity allocation too. Who knows, it's all timing and not ideal.
I found Acre Trader and Farming Together websites for the Farm Land investment and started to transfer money, after maturity of CDs toward the Farm Land. Cons: you have to lock money from 5 to 12 years, depend on a farm you select to invest to, it might go with lower than expected annual cash return (rents and crop percentage). Pro: at least 8% annual return as it adding in a Farm Land cost raises (average 4.9% annually). Corn, beans, veggies farms are with lower risks, while citruses, fruits and nuts are with higher annual returns 9 to 13% but have higher risks. Looking at my stocks, it seems that it is much lower risk since food is #1 commodity for people. The UN predicts, it is going to be big grain shortages because of climate change, Russia - Ukraine war and exploding population in many countries. Currently many Mid Eastern and African countries are really worry where to buy grain as they face big shortages on what is needed.
 
I found Acre Trader and Farming Together websites for the Farm Land investment and started to transfer money, after maturity of CDs toward the Farm Land. Cons: you have to lock money from 5 to 12 years, depend on a farm you select to invest to, it might go with lower than expected annual cash return (rents and crop percentage). Pro: at least 8% annual return as it adding in a Farm Land cost raises (average 4.9% annually). Corn, beans, veggies farms are with lower risks, while citruses, fruits and nuts are with higher annual returns 9 to 13% but have higher risks. Looking at my stocks, it seems that it is much lower risk since food is #1 commodity for people. The UN predicts, it is going to be big grain shortages because of climate change, Russia - Ukraine war and exploding population in many countries. Currently many Mid Eastern and African countries are really worry where to buy grain as they face big shortages on what is needed.



Seems more like a play on commodities and real estate…..not much like a brokered CD.
 
Seems more like a play on commodities and real estate…..not much like a brokered CD.
Sure, yet many people, including on this website, are worrying on how to survive in a high inflation environment. I think that this inflation is not going to be short lived. If the Feds will raise the rate to 8.5%, they will go bankrupt due to high Debt ($30.4 trillions) and constant huge budget deficit.
 
1 year treasury bills yields are 2.05% right now and 2 year is around 2.7%. Personally I'd go that route with much more liquidity.

My current avg maturity now sits at 3.9 years spread over 14 years of CD's and Treasuries. I will admit this is still a much lower duration and maturity than a TBM fund. But that's what matches my plan. Since I have a specific need for funds in the future I prefer to match my holdings to my needs rather than speculate about rates. If you go short term it's an endless game. What if overall rates drop again in 2 years?

I think the two big questions are 1) How long is high inflation going to last. I've been saying longer than anyone thinks for over a year and still feel that way. 2) Have we finally broken the 40 year downward bond yield trend and starting an upward trend.

If you agree with my #1, you want shorter duration. If you think #2 is possible you definitely want shorter duration. Long bonds work wonderfully well in a downward interest rate environment, not so much in rising environment. And yes you can sit on them and not take a hit on them but if you need to redeem them before maturity you will take a far bigger blood bath than shorter duration bonds. A small nibble in long bonds is fine. Plus, if rates go back down it means inflation has dropped back to 2% or so - which would be a good thing so slightly lower rates than today with significantly lower inflation is still a higher real yield than buying now and locking in -5-8% depending on whether or not you adjust OER.
 
I think the two big questions are 1) How long is high inflation going to last. I've been saying longer than anyone thinks for over a year and still feel that way.


That's pretty vague. But the real answer is that no one knows.
 
... Looking at my stocks, it seems that it is much lower risk since food is #1 commodity for people. The UN predicts, it is going to be big grain shortages because of climate change, Russia - Ukraine war and exploding population in many countries. Currently many Mid Eastern and African countries are really worry where to buy grain as they face big shortages on what is needed.
With respect, do you think you are the only one who knows this?

From Rick Ferri's "All About Asset Allocation" : "There is a classic saying on Wall Street, 'What everybody already knows is not worth knowing.' "

All that stuff is already reflected in the price of the farmland. In addition you are looking at a scenario that is highly vulnerable to self-dealing on the part of the promoters and may be subject to fees /markeups getting in, fees/markdowns getting out, and ongoing fees. As an investment this is not even on the same planet as a CD.
 
That's pretty vague. But the real answer is that no one knows.

That’s because no one knows how the fed will behave if rising rates will cause a recession or if 3% interest will be enough and if it does cause a recession, will the fed back off or press onward.. My guess is 3% isn’t going to be enough to drive inflation down materially. I think it will need to be in the 7-8% range if not higher. And that almost certainly will cause a recession. So if I had to guess we’ll have one more year at 10% or higher (after adjusting OER for reality) and then a slow drop off from there but the range of outcomes is quite high
 
That’s because no one knows how the fed will behave if rising rates will cause a recession or if 3% interest will be enough and if it does cause a recession, will the fed back off or press onward.. My guess is 3% isn’t going to be enough to drive inflation down materially. I think it will need to be in the 7-8% range if not higher. And that almost certainly will cause a recession. So if I had to guess we’ll have one more year at 10% or higher (after adjusting OER for reality) and then a slow drop off from there but the range of outcomes is quite high

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is that inflation is measured year over year, so is VERY unlikely to be anywhere near current levels a year from now - because for us to have similar inflation to now in Spring of 2023, prices would have to go up ANOTHER 8.5+% FROM HERE. That's highly unlikely - because..see below. Much more likely is that we'll be back to 2%'ish by then.

We have 8.5+% inflation today primarily because of 2 things: HUGE ($5 Trillion+) monetary policy - direct checks to households, moratorium on things like rent and loan repayment, child tax credits and all sorts of other "free stuff" from the US Govt. Unfortunately, that was done at pretty much the same exact time that we drastically lowered production of just about everything because of COVID shutdowns.

Econ 101..greatly reduce supply while increasing demand (because most everyone all of a sudden had a LOT more available funds than previously so went out and bought "stuff"), and inflation is going to go bonkers - just as it has.

Fast forward to today..that's all (mostly) done with. No more huge checks to households. Production is ramping back up..supply and demand levels will re-calibrate.

Not only will we not have 8+ (or even 5, 6+%) inflation a year from now, we might even have seen "peak CPI" as many economic indicators are ALREADY indicating the economy is slowing significantly. So, for my own planning purposes, I'm using a 4% 2023 number and even that "could" wind up being high.

I heard it said earlier today that the 2-year Treasury Yield is indicative of what the market believes the terminal Fed Funds rate is going to be. There's compelling evidence of that going back many years/decades. Assuming that's indeed the case, we're "probably" looking at a max FFR of around 2.5% before the Fed "breaks something" in the economy and pivots. At least that's what the bond markets currently believe.

Long term yields (eg: 10 year) are not affected as much by the FFR, but instead reflect economic conditions. That's why when the 10-year rate drops below the 2-year rate, people freak out and think it's basically financial Armageddon and a Recession is coming.

Bottom line - we "could" see CD, MYGA and Treasury yields kick up a little from here..but if anyone's holding out hope that rates will hit 5% or higher (or even 4%), that's not overly likely. What's more likely is that the Fed will never even get to 3% FFR, and that we'll see short-term rates (2-yr) top out somewhere around that level.

(One reason the Fed won't get to even 3% FFR is that the Economy WILL go into a Recession far before that. And they are not going to hike further into a Recessionary environment).

JMHO and I of course don't "have a crystal ball". But there's many years of market history that shows the 2-Year rate is "predictive" of the terminal FFR and decades of history that shows the Fed backs off EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. when the economy starts to break - and break it will, likely somewhere north of 2.5 - 3% FFR...

PS: we also have the reality of significantly increased Federal debt load over prior hiking cycles. And as someone astutely pointed above - that acts to limit how far the Fed even can THINK of hiking..that's why the "max" increase level (before "something breaks") has for the most part dropped in every past cycle over the cycles prior..
 
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NoMore - it do think it’s very likely inflation is up another 7-10% in the next 12 months. I think you would be surprised at how much companies held back on raising prices over the last 10 months originally due to expectations inflation was transient and then that it would be over in early 2022. PPI is actually getting worse and commodities are way worse. We’ve raised prices 10% in the last 14 months and if prices for inputs don’t come down or labor doesn’t fall off quickly, we’ll have to raise prices 15+% in the US to maintain margin - and that’s assuming it doesn’t get worse.

Once you see PPI in the low single digits, then maybe you can expect CPI to be low single digits a few months later.
 
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