College Costs, why?

[MichaelB]

Absolutely, and although the gummit did play a role too by encouraging everyone to get a college education and providing federal loans to pay those high costs, I think such loans should not be paid off on the back of taxpayers.

Encouraging everyone to get a college education is not the fault of gov’t, IMHO. It is built into the fabric of our culture. High school age teens are virtually indoctrinated in the belief of a need for a college degree to get ahead, the value of higher education, and the thought that a degree in itself is more important than the field of study. This message comes from parents, teachers, the entire educational system, and of course, colleges and universities.

Our belief system for higher education is similar in many ways to the wedding industry. People have no idea how heavily their thinking had been molded by fantasies, not realistic views on life.

 

[target2019]

Since SCOTUS ruled on the loan forgiveness plan (up to 20K per student) everything said about past proposals (forgive all loan, forgive some loan, forgive nothing) is moot.

The emotional component to this is of course the fact that millions before did not receive debt forgiveness.

A new plan is in place, and that is what will be worked with going forward.

My own children took advantage of some student loans, and have dealt with the repayment. But I'm not blind to the plight of millions of students who we want to be part of a more-educated and skilled workforce.

I think that the new approach, to limit the monthly payment, is a solution of sorts.

 

[mcbraemer]

Graduated from NJIT in 1976 (ChE) doing it in 4 years, lived at home. I am grateful that my parents picked up tuition at $500 per Semester. Books never exceeded $100 per Semester. Total cost under $5000 out the door. It was a different collegiate world back then, for sure! ( and yes, first year or two we used sliderulers - calculators came in 1973 or 4).

 

[eytonxav]

Encouraging everyone to get a college education is not the fault of gov’t, IMHO. it is built into the fabric of our culture. High school age teens are virtually indoctrinated in the belief for a need for a college degree to get ahead, the value of higher education, and the thought that a degree in itself is more important than the field of study. This message comes from parents, teachers, the entire educational system, and of course, colleges and universities.

Our belief system for higher education is similar in many ways to the wedding industry. People have no idea how heavily their thinking had been molded by fantasies, not realistic views on life.

Note, I did not say it was the gov't fault, but that they did play a role in encouraging college. Now we are fighting the US falling behind other countries education wise. Unfortunately much of that happens in grade school. At least many politicians now appreciate the value in encouraging kids to go into trades that can lead to a better employability and a better life.

 

[athena53]

Encouraging everyone to get a college education is not the fault of gov’t, IMHO. it is built into the fabric of our culture.

I think the demand was also driven by the fact that in the 1950s, 1960s, a college education form anywhere, in any major, gave you the advantage in getting a job. University grads were scarcer then, and colleges were more selective. It was a sign that you had certain basic knowledge, could work hard and were trainable.

So, as more people looked at the stats and saw college grads making more money, demand grew and it became easier for marginal students to enroll- smaller, for-profit colleges sprang up and even state universities relaxed their entrance requirements and added remedial courses. That diluted the value of a degree unless it came from the Ivies, maybe the second tier below that, or a rigorous program in a related field at a respected state university. Sadly, it was more likely the first-generation college students who were caught with useless degrees and big loans but no career opportunities.

 

[Markola]

Encouraging everyone to get a college education is not the fault of gov’t, IMHO. it is built into the fabric of our culture. High school age teens are virtually indoctrinated in the belief for a need for a college degree to get ahead, the value of higher education, and the thought that a degree in itself is more important than the field of study. This message comes from parents, teachers, the entire educational system, and of course, colleges and universities.



Our belief system for higher education is similar in many ways to the wedding industry. People have no idea how heavily their thinking had been molded by fantasies, not realistic views on life.

I agree and would go further to say that having a 4 year degree is one signal within the American caste system. If we’re truthful, establishing one’s place in the social hierarchy is far more powerful than any government policy. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong or that it always was or always will be thus, just observing what is in this era.

 

[Montecfo]

There should be limits on how much debt you can take on studying philosophy, social work or other low paying jobs.

No loan forgiveness, no income limits. Get another job. Pay your debt.

We would be better off as a nation.

 

[Stormy Kromer]

Encouraging everyone to get a college education is not the fault of gov’t, IMHO. it is built into the fabric of our culture. High school age teens are virtually indoctrinated in the belief for a need for a college degree to get ahead, the value of higher education, and the thought that a degree in itself is more important than the field of study. This message comes from parents, teachers, the entire educational system, and of course, colleges and universities.

Our belief system for higher education is similar in many ways to the wedding industry. People have no idea how heavily their thinking had been molded by fantasies, not realistic views on life.

I could not agree more.

I respect the trades such as electricians, plumbers, HVAC, truck drivers, carpenters,,,,,,over the line. No disrespect to the college educated careers. But, don't discount the people that keep your lives working.

I would rather live next to and be friends with a skilled trade professional than the president of the best university in my state.

 

[thod]

It is my understanding that court cases against employers administering their own testing criteria for hiring decisions was opening them up to lawsuits. So employers found it easier to require a college degree for many jobs that did not necessarily need one, just to help them screen applicants.

Once that took hold in mass, it meant that everyone needed to get a degree and of course colleges did nothing to discourage that. Supply and demand then took over and the cost and probably quality of college education rose thereafter.

I assume that the pendulum will eventually swing back the other way.

 

[CaptTom]

...I do think part of the increase in demand is that the economy has changed substantially. In the 1970s/80s there was a greater share of the economy accessible through blue collar, high-school + trade/experience work than there is today...

I see it a little differently. Even before the current job market, for a while now it's been getting more and more difficult to find qualified people in just about any trade. By this I mean blue-collar but well-paying jobs like mechanics, welders, plumbers, electricians, etc. The kinds of jobs you can go to a tech school for. These skills are in high demand, and few people are entering these fields.

My advice to anyone high-school age now would be to skip the 4-year degree. Learn a trade. Go to tech school or, better yet, an apprenticeship program. You can get paid while you learn, and be in high demand once you've learned the trade. You start your career with money in the bank and a skill you can take anywhere, instead of a huge loan.

 

[Sunset]

Encouraging everyone to get a college education is not the fault of gov’t, IMHO. It is built into the fabric of our culture. High school age teens are virtually indoctrinated in the belief of a need for a college degree to get ahead, the value of higher education, and the thought that a degree in itself is more important than the field of study. This message comes from parents, teachers, the entire educational system, and of course, colleges and universities.

Our belief system for higher education is similar in many ways to the wedding industry. People have no idea how heavily their thinking had been molded by fantasies, not realistic views on life.

+1
My parents were like that, told me pursuing an education was a value onto itself... So I got a useless degree and after 10 years saw the light and went back to get a STEM degree...

Otherwise I'd still be working...

Whenever I hear someone going to College for a history/social/dance/art/etc degree, I (when possible) ask them how will they earn money after they get the (worthless) degree..

 

[Markola]

^^^^^ I can’t agree with that generalization. There’s a fundamental difference between education and job training.

I’m an economic history major with a minor in Latin American Studies, which came with learning to express myself by writing a lot of writing of papers. Writing and communicating is an important skillset that a lot of STEM majors simply do not have. By majoring in something I enjoyed, I learned to learn and was motivated to continue to grad school for a masters degree in a non-STEM field that became my 30 year career, most of it in 6 figure management roles. Today, I still read history for pleasure, thanks to a strong foundation in college.

I believe students perform best and work hardest in majors they want most to study, not because someone else thinks they should study X,Y or Z. Some students’ best and most successful path for life is through the humanities and social sciences.

 

[eytonxav]

^^^^^ I can’t agree with that generalization. There’s a fundamental difference between education and job training.

I’m an economic history major with a minor in Latin American Studies, which came with learning to express myself by writing a lot of writing of papers. Writing and communicating is an important skillset that a lot of STEM majors simply do not have. By majoring in something I enjoyed, I learned to learn and was motivated to continue to grad school for a masters degree in a non-STEM field that became my 30 year career, most of it in 6 figure management roles. Today, I still read history for pleasure, thanks to a strong foundation in college.

I believe students perform best and work hardest in majors they want most to study, not because someone else thinks they should study X,Y or Z. Some students’ best and most successful path for life is through the humanities and social sciences.

Back then, I feel college taught one to think and reason regardless of social science or STEM. Now, for non-stem majors in today's world, I am not sure that aspect is as strong. When you see free debate shut down on college campuses, that does not lend itself to critical thinking and open-mindedness. Plus, now companies no longer provide OJT, so those soft degrees get much harder to payoff financially.

 

[MichaelB]

I agree and would go further to say that having a 4 year degree is one signal within the American caste system. If we’re truthful, establishing one’s place in the social hierarchy is far more powerful than any government policy. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong or that it always was or always will be thus, just observing what is in this era.

That’s a good point.

 

[Midpack]

I see it a little differently. Even before the current job market, for a while now it's been getting more and more difficult to find qualified people in just about any trade. By this I mean blue-collar but well-paying jobs like mechanics, welders, plumbers, electricians, etc. The kinds of jobs you can go to a tech school for. These skills are in high demand, and few people are entering these fields.

My advice to anyone high-school age now would be to skip the 4-year degree. Learn a trade. Go to tech school or, better yet, an apprenticeship program. You can get paid while you learn, and be in high demand once you've learned the trade. You start your career with money in the bank and a skill you can take anywhere, instead of a huge loan.

I get the impression this is already happening, hope so. There are some degrees that are only becoming less in demand while college expenses continue to increase. That can only steer more people to the (well paying) trades. Though not quite as high paying, I would think trades are just as secure a career as tech these days, maybe more stable.

 

[Midpack]

^^^^^ I can’t agree with that generalization. There’s a fundamental difference between education and job training.

I’m an economic history major with a minor in Latin American Studies, which came with learning to express myself by writing a lot of writing of papers. Writing and communicating is an important skillset that a lot of STEM majors simply do not have. By majoring in something I enjoyed, I learned to learn and was motivated to continue to grad school for a masters degree in a non-STEM field that became my 30 year career, most of it in 6 figure management roles. Today, I still read history for pleasure, thanks to a strong foundation in college.

I believe students perform best and work hardest in majors they want most to study, not because someone else thinks they should study X,Y or Z. Some students’ best and most successful path for life is through the humanities and social sciences.

Don't doubt your history at all, but is that what you'd encourage for a 20-something today? I wouldn't...

I have to agree with Sunset's conclusion above, now more than ever - "Whenever I hear someone going to College for a history/social/dance/art/etc degree, I (when possible) ask them how will they earn money after they get the (worthless) degree..." It will pan out for fewer and fewer grads nowadays as compared to a generation or two ago.

 

[jollystomper]

I’m an economic history major with a minor in Latin American Studies, which came with learning to express myself by writing a lot of writing of papers. Writing and communicating is an important skillset that a lot of STEM majors simply do not have.

As STEM major back in the day before the "STEM" term was used , I would agree. One of the benefits of an Ivy League education then, that was not as prevalent in other schools at the time, was the notion of "whatever you major in, it is only going to be a subset of your total education here". So I had to take a year of a language and courses across the history/literature/economics/social sciences disciplines. That developed my writing, reading comprehension, public speaking, and problem analysis skills so that I was often in a situation at work where I was asked to "translate" tech-speak to something the client could understand in terms that made sense to their needs and objectives. That made a huge difference in my career advancement.

Those type of skills are valuable, but colleges try to show the value of them to students in how they can apply in the real world. DW was a professor in the history and languages departments at a couple of colleges. She would attend department meetings where the heads would bemoan the fact that "direct" jobs in those fields (primarily teaching) were being reduced. DW brought up that why don't we sell students on the skills they develop can be useful in business and corporate jobs. The department heads laughed, and said "we don't want to send them to that. Those are 'drone' jobs!". Sometimes the people running the academic departments in colleges cannot see beyond their window to the greater picture.

Back then, I feel college taught one to think and reason regardless of social science or STEM. Now, for non-stem majors in today's world, I am not sure that aspect is as strong.

I can recall in more than one class in college, when a discussion would come up where people had differentiating points of view, the professor would give out the assignment that essentially was "you believe A, come up with a strong argument that defends B". Essentially teaching us to look at all sides of an argument. It is the old "teaching how to think" vs "teaching what to think" issue.

Two other things to ponder:

- There are simply fewer unskilled jobs that pay well. Automation is one big reason. While one can argue more jobs have been created, those jobs likely also require more skills, some of which need some level of college (if even community college).
- There is now world-wide competition for jobs. When I graduated I did not have to worry much about competition from overseas talent. The picture is totally different now. One way people perceive they need to compete and stand out in this era is by getting not just a college degree, but graduate degrees as well.

 

[OldShooter]

... I believe students perform best and work hardest in majors they want most to study, not because someone else thinks they should study X,Y or Z. Some students’ best and most successful path for life is through the humanities and social sciences.

I don't doubt that at all, but there are a couple of facts that bear:

1) At the typical ages of college freshmen and sophomores, judgment skills are immature. (https://www.aacap.org/AACAP/Familie...-Problem-Solving-and-Decision-Making-095.aspx) So choices of majors by children may be less optimum than those recommended by adults.

2) Society pays people based on its perception of the value of their skills. This doesn't mean that skills don't develop post-college, but it does mean that in most cases humanities and social sciences graduates start out in an economic hole. Some overcome this weak start in spectacularly impressive ways, some not so much. But the facts are that economically successful paths are harder to achieve for these graduates.

 

[JoeWras]

Niece got a degree in one of those humanities.

She ended up working for Costco, first decorating cakes (the degree was art related) and now doing hearing aids (after training). She's also some sort of alternate manager.

It wasn't as lucrative as an engineering degree, but it got her something. However, she probably would have done just as well with a 2 yr. degree. Oh well.

 

[athena53]

DW was a professor in the history and languages departments at a couple of colleges. She would attend department meetings where the heads would bemoan the fact that "direct" jobs in those fields (primarily teaching) were being reduced. DW brought up that why don't we sell students on the skills they develop can be useful in business and corporate jobs. The department heads laughed, and said "we don't want to send them to that. Those are 'drone' jobs!". Sometimes the people running the academic departments in colleges cannot see beyond their window to the greater picture.

I agree- it's really unfortunate that employers and students fixated on STEM majors ignore the liberal arts. I was a Math major but learned so much in my electives including two years of German and a year of a great Music Appreciation curriculum. I managed zero history classes, which I thought were boring until I started traveling and realized how little I knew. I'm still working on that!

If I had a kid who really wanted to major in a traditionally unmarketable field I'd suggest a double major even if it took another year. I know so many actuaries with double majors (Math and- ), ranging from various music disciplines to theology, Classics and linguistics (her specialty was the native language of Greenland).

 

[CaptTom]

...Though not quite as high paying, I would think trades are just as secure a career as tech these days, maybe more stable.

Exactly. I had a career in tech. I watched lots of good people with impressive degrees get laid off in my MegaCorp alone. I also watched lots of colleagues with cushy, high-paying jobs at startups and high-flying companies lose their jobs when those companies crashed.

On the flip side, a good electrician, mechanic, plumber, carpenter or nurse can go anywhere and have a well-paying job the next day.

...Society pays people based on its perception of the value of their skills...

I was thinking it was more of a supply and demand thing. But looking at the way the IT field was going around the time I retired, you may be on to something.

The kids graduating with "programming" skills barely knew how to click and drag icons in their graphical IDE (integrated development environment.) Many had no clue how a computer works, or what the machine was actually doing with the code they wrote.

Luckily for them, the HR managers doing the hiring were just as clueless, and easily impressed by an ivy league degree and a lot of mumbo-jumbo on a resume.

But this superficial understanding can make that kind of job obsolete. If you can't fix it when it breaks, because you don't know how it really works in the first place, your long-term value to the organization is significantly diminished.

 

[Time2]

I get the impression this is already happening, hope so. There are some degrees that are only becoming less in demand while college expenses continue to increase. That can only steer more people to the (well paying) trades. Though not quite as high paying, I would think trades are just as secure a career as tech these days, maybe more stable.

There may be a downside to wages in the trades caused by the influx of immigrants, legal, but mostly illegal. After the Hurricane we had in 2018, many crews were Mexicans, including drywall, paint, roof and carpentry. As many come here without college, they find they trades good to them.
I made one of the workers at my home a best friend, he some how deleted all his music from his phone, I showed him an app to listen to radio stations from around the world, he found a familiar station from his city, he was overjoyed.
A story from a friend that owns an ICE plant. He has shirts the say ICE on the front. He stopped to see a buddy at a construction job and more than half the workers ran from the job site. His buddy, said," don't ever come to my job site with that shirt again!"

Another thing, the foreman/managers used a language translator app to communicate what needed to be done.
btw, married to a legal immigrant, 42 years.

 

[Texas Proud]

You can get a good salary at some places with little or no experience... I do wonder if they require a degree for their management





https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinte...urly_and_salary_wages_for_bucees_convenience/

 

[RunningBum]

Some of us help our kids and grandkids pay for college. Now we are seeing gov't want to forgive student loan debt. It seems to me the elephant in the room that seems to be ignored is why college tuition has escalated to the point of making college unaffordable for many, and yet I do not see gov't or the media going after the colleges to payoff these loans and make their tuition more affordable. While I have not verified the numbers in this meme, it makes the point nonetheless. What a disgrace to ignore the obvious:

I only skimmed the thread, but I didn't see anyone make the point that using minimum wage as a comparison tool is a terrible idea, since minimum wage notoriously lags inflation. $3.35 in 1980 is inflation adjusted to over $12 now, a lot higher than the current $7.25 min wage. Plus college grads should making more than minimum wage. I guess it's too hard to find the average starting salary for a college grad now and in 1980.

College costs are still increasing much higher than inflation, but I doubt this meme takes into account how many people pay less than full tuition with grants and scholarships. https://www.collegefactual.com/coll...dergraduates,average of $28,655.00 per person. states that about 65% pay less than full tuition, with the average aid being $28,655. I'm not going to try to find what those numbers were in 1980.

 

[eytonxav]

I only skimmed the thread, but I didn't see anyone make the point that using minimum wage as a comparison tool is a terrible idea, since minimum wage notoriously lags inflation. $3.35 in 1980 is inflation adjusted to over $12 now, a lot higher than the current $7.25 min wage. Plus college grads should making more than minimum wage. I guess it's too hard to find the average starting salary for a college grad now and in 1980.

College costs are still increasing much higher than inflation, but I doubt this meme takes into account how many people pay less than full tuition with grants and scholarships. https://www.collegefactual.com/coll...dergraduates,average of $28,655.00 per person. states that about 65% pay less than full tuition, with the average aid being $28,655. I'm not going to try to find what those numbers were in 1980.

The meme only highlights the issue that college education is more expensive today that yesteryear, regardless of how one quibbles about the numbers in the meme.