This is sad, wanna work for 7 dollars an hour?

[dumpster56]

Good god teachers getting the blame again.

Bottom line worthless parents who send their children unprepared to school. Parents who had no good reason to have the kids they have. Just because you can have sex doesn't mean you should be a parent.

You should have met some of the worthless dregs that had children that we taught. Damaged uncared for kids. I am not a social worker, I was a teacher who did not have the money or ability to fix the damage that the parents inflicted on these kids.

 

[FinanceDude]

Good god teachers getting the blame again.

Not at all, I am the product of two public school teachers. The REALITY is that throwing money at a problem has really never worked...........

My mom had a master's degree in education, taught LD and gifted kids, and did this for grades K-8. After 30 years of teaching, she quit suddenly, one reason being she was spending $1500 a year out of her OWN POCKET to feed suburban kids breakfast.............

That is a parental failure, not a teacher failure. Building new schools and throwing money at things probably won't work unless parents take more interest in their children's future.........

Please refer to this article for what I consider to be disturbing events:

JS Online: Editorial: A blow to innovation

 

[armor99]

Not at all, I am the product of two public school teachers. The REALITY is that throwing money at a problem has really never worked...........

My mom had a master's degree in education, taught LD and gifted kids, and did this for grades K-8. After 30 years of teaching, she quit suddenly, one reason being she was spending $1500 a year out of her OWN POCKET to feed suburban kids breakfast.............

That is a parental failure, not a teacher failure. Building new schools and throwing money at things probably won't work unless parents take more interest in their children's future.........

Please refer to this article for what I consider to be disturbing events:

JS Online: Editorial: A blow to innovation

Well said .... I apologise if what I said was taken to mean that this is all the teachers fault, this is not what I intended. I agree that the parents of these children are most directly responsible for the outcome of their childrens behavior. I would go even further and say that parents that stress education to their children is one of the most determining factors in that child's future success or failure.
And just to be fair.... there ARE less than perfect teachers out there. There have been numerous stories about how impossible it is to fire teachers from the unions in places such as NYC for example. Being raised in NYC.... I got to see some of this firsthand. It might surprise some to learn that there are many hundred teachers who are part of the teachers union in NYC that go to a special building in Manhattan everyday for 8 hours... and sit there doing nothing. They do this everyday... and get paid for it. Why Because they have been deemed unfit, dangerous, etc, but because of union rules, cannot be fired. So they report to this building in Manhattan and sit there everyday for 8 hours, doing nothing, and getting paid for it. And this brings me back to the origional point that I was trying to make.... lack of competition is almost always the problem. If these teachers COULD be fired for lack of performance (and conversely financial rewarded for better performance), and if parents COULD be prosecuted for their childrens poor behavior (as it is a reflection of their values), then conditions might actually improve.

 

[myself]

I know this is going to cause a big explosion of words. Why not eliminate school taxes and just charge tuition? You got the kids, you pay, or maybe you could ask the Grandparents or the neighbors without kids to help out voluntarily.

No need for explosion of words.
Your suggestion while it makes sense on the surface, could have drastic repercussions to our economy, at least for a number of years.
The reason that I say that is cause and effect.
If only the parents pay for tuition, then there would be a considerably (I'm totally guessing at about 65%) less people having kids.
If there were 65% less children being born for too long, that would mean that there may not be enough to support the population as they age. And I'm not just referring to Social Security.
Also, think of it this way. It costs about $9,000/child/household/year to educate our children from K-12 (at least in our area, although that figure may be a little understated). That covers facilities,maintenance of facilities, busing, teacher's/maintenance worker's/superintendent's salaries, teacher's/maintenance worker's/superintendent's pensions, teacher's/maintenance worker's/superintendent's healthcare, teacher's/maintenance worker's/superintendent's continuing education, books, materials, etc. If we made only parents pay for it, there would be very, very few folks who could afford to pay well over $20,000/child/year, simply because you took the "/household" out of the equation. And so our country would become a country of idiots (not that there aren't a lot of 'em already ).

 

[myself]

... and if parents COULD be prosecuted for their childrens poor behavior (as it is a reflection of their values), then conditions might actually improve.

I'd have to say that this is already a very good possibility. Isn't it true that most (if not all) states have a mandatory requirement for kids to go to school, or the parent can be sent to jail (if the offense occurs too often)?

 

[myself]

Not at all, I am the product of two public school teachers. The REALITY is that throwing money at a problem has really never worked...........

My mom had a master's degree in education, taught LD and gifted kids, and did this for grades K-8. After 30 years of teaching, she quit suddenly, one reason being she was spending $1500 a year out of her OWN POCKET to feed suburban kids breakfast.............

That is a parental failure, not a teacher failure. Building new schools and throwing money at things probably won't work unless parents take more interest in their children's future.........

Please refer to this article for what I consider to be disturbing events:

JS Online: Editorial: A blow to innovation

I agree ... well said.
I am the product of both public and private education. Although my limited private education far outweighed the public education in the area that I lived in.

 

[old woman]

Some parents wouldn't even buy the books if they had to pay for education the kids would remain totally uneducated. Public schools take the children of drug addicts and drug abusers, and parents who don't speak English and put them in classrooms with learning disabled and gifted kids and typical kids. The gives these unfortunate children at least some boot straps. The worst of the public school kids will at least learn to read and write so if they ever want an education they have a start.
I was a horrible student about half Ds and half Cs, my parents didn't act like they cared and I didn't care. We moved every year or so and I just went through the system. I didn't learn phonics, spelling, math or grammar and punctuation. My parents wouldn't have taught us anything at all. What I did learn was that bookkeeping was easy. I watched the teacher write on the board, did no homework and aced all the test. He said two years of high school bookkeeping you could get a job. We moved they didn't offer a second year at the new school but I remembered it was a way to get a job.
After high school I worked minimum wage jobs, got married and became a housewife. Then I wanted a job and remembered a second year of bookkeeping would get me a job so I went to a community college and asked about bookkeeping. They enrolled me in acc101 which turned out to be accounting. Accounting was easy too so I got a two year degree, the years later a 4 year degree. I tested when I started college and had a 8th grade level in math, but I could read ok, so I studied math for a week and tested at 12th grade level. I took remedial math in 9th grade and no more math until college yet I was able to learn algebra and calculus because I could read. Managed to get a GPA of 3.57 in college from reading the books because I was forced to go to public school as a child.
Every child should be allowed to at least get a good 8th grade education even if the parents are total losers, then they can learn more when they are older.

 

[dumpster56]

It might surprise some to learn that there are many hundred teachers who are part of the teachers union in NYC that go to a special building in Manhattan everyday for 8 hours... and sit there doing nothing. They do this everyday... and get paid for it. Why

Because they have been deemed unfit, dangerous, etc, but because of union rules, cannot be fired. So they report to this building in Manhattan and sit there everyday for 8 hours, doing nothing, and getting paid for it. And this brings me back to the origional point that I was trying to make.... lack of competition is almost always the problem. If these teachers COULD be fired for lack of performance (and conversely financial rewarded for better performance), and if parents COULD be prosecuted for their childrens poor behavior


They do get fired, they do lose their jobs much sooner than the media will lead you to believe.

 

[lets-retire]

Good god teachers getting the blame again.

Bottom line worthless parents who send their children unprepared to school. Parents who had no good reason to have the kids they have. Just because you can have sex doesn't mean you should be a parent.

You should have met some of the worthless dregs that had children that we taught. Damaged uncared for kids. I am not a social worker, I was a teacher who did not have the money or ability to fix the damage that the parents inflicted on these kids.

Your statement leads me to believe the school you taught in had very few "qualified" parents. I don't have stats, but I would have to disagree with some of the undertones of your assertion.

Last year the local rag printed the results on the state mandated test for each of our schools. My son was going to a school attended by primarily wealthy students for the first part of the year. We moved half way through the school year and unfortunately our new area goes to a school along with many lower income students. The results on the tests were interesting. The new school scored higher in all areas for all grades when compared to the old school. The homework and tests were easier and focused on basics at the new school when compared to the old school. So why did the new school score so much higher? I really don't know, but could it be that the old school was cramming so much into their school day the students didn't have the time to master the knowledge? I think the new school spent more time on the basics and drilled them into the heads of the students resulting in higher scores.

I had to question his language arts teacher this year. The students were assigned a research project to complete. Mind you this is the first one ever done in the schools. The assistance provided by the teacher was very minimal at best. She handed out a very general outline and told the parents to assist the students. Very little class time was given to prepare for the writing of the paper or conducting any research. My big question was what are you doing for those students whose parents either didn't finish school or have horrible researching skills. Her response was the parents have to help. Basically she hammered the students for their parents lack of skill. How in the heck can she expect the parents to actually teach the students, that is her job. That is why I pay my taxes to the school. I have no problem assisting my son with lessons provided in the classroom (in fact I have the email addresses for all of his teachers on my contacts page, and email them often), but if the teacher does not have the time to....uh....teach, then how can she hold the students responsible for something not taught in class. My son is in the 4th grade. Like I said this is the first research project in school that he had to complete.

My other issue with you statement is, if the problem lies with the parents (I do believe a lot does), then how can the problem be systemic. Your assertion seems to be the parents are the main problem. If that is the situation then there are far fewer decent parents than completely worthless parents. I would understand if there was a problem with certain areas/school/states, but in this situation the problem seems to lie across the board. What is the one common denomenator between all of the school districts? Teaching methods being taught in college.

 

[barbarus]

To be fair to schoolteachers, for every mope who is protected from their incompetent teaching by the union there are many good teachers whose jobs are preserved from unfair termination.
K-through-12 represents one of the most venal manifestations of the lowest human drives existent. The politics is venomous: [SIZE=-1]cliques[/SIZE] of moronic, aggressive parents, petty, anal-retentive administrations with a shallow grasp of any intellectual rigor but showing favoritism to the connected, and increasingly imbecilic, disturbed, violent and dysfunctional groups of youth.
Competent teachers need a union to survive this minefield.

Not an arena in which I'd care to play!!

It might surprise some to learn that there are many hundred teachers who are part of the teachers union in NYC that go to a special building in Manhattan everyday for 8 hours... and sit there doing nothing. They do this everyday... and get paid for it. Why

Because they have been deemed unfit, dangerous, etc, but because of union rules, cannot be fired. So they report to this building in Manhattan and sit there everyday for 8 hours, doing nothing, and getting paid for it. And this brings me back to the origional point that I was trying to make.... lack of competition is almost always the problem. If these teachers COULD be fired for lack of performance (and conversely financial rewarded for better performance), and if parents COULD be prosecuted for their childrens poor behavior
They do get fired, they do lose their jobs much sooner than the media will lead you to believe.

 

[Wags]

Good god teachers getting the blame again.

Bottom line worthless parents who send their children unprepared to school. Parents who had no good reason to have the kids they have. Just because you can have sex doesn't mean you should be a parent.

You should have met some of the worthless dregs that had children that we taught. Damaged uncared for kids. I am not a social worker, I was a teacher who did not have the money or ability to fix the damage that the parents inflicted on these kids.

It has been my experience that when the teachers and the parents work together that the teaching process for our children is enhanced and it creates an en·vi·ron·ment for learning. The parents involvement is crucial to a child's education.

There are some darn good teachers but they need the support of the parents, the school adminstration and the school board.

GOD BLESS

 

[lynxville]

Not all states put the burden of education expenses on the tax bill. Iowa is one. My grandchildren go to a Lutheran school and the tuition is $500.00 per year for grades 1-6. I have been to the school, it's beautiful, and has everything the children need. My point is why public schools can’t compete on quality for the huge price they receive to teach.

I agree that public schools get dysfunctional kids, but then I think school vouchers are the answer. Close the underperforming schools.

 

[FinanceDude]

Not all states put the burden of education expenses on the tax bill. Iowa is one. My grandchildren go to a Lutheran school and the tuition is $500.00 per year for grades 1-6. I have been to the school, it's beautiful, and has everything the children need. My point is why public schools can’t compete on quality for the huge price they receive to teach.

The local paper posted the pay of our local teachers. On average, they get about $30,000 a year in fringe benefits, which are pension, health care, etc. The average teacher in our district makes $55,000 + the fringe benefits. Maybe that's not awesome,but it's not a terrible job,IMHO..........

 

[youbet]

K-through-12 represents one of the most venal manifestations of the lowest human drives existent. The politics is venomous: [SIZE=-1]cliques[/SIZE] of moronic, aggressive parents

Are you implying that that applies to some of the posters here?

 

[youbet]

The local paper posted the pay of our local teachers. On average, they get about $30,000 a year in fringe benefits, which are pension, health care, etc. The average teacher in our district makes $55,000 + the fringe benefits. Maybe that's not awesome,but it's not a terrible job,IMHO..........

Remember, you and your neighbors, through the process of electing the officials in your taxing body, have agreed to all this. If you really disagree, start militantly protesting and, over time, do something about it!

If you can't get your neighbors to buy in, move. Find a community to join where values and beliefs are different than where you are now and there is a focus on low school funding.

Unlike state or federal taxes which cross many communities, real estate taxes are localized and can be influenced by the community over time. But you have to speak up loudly and consistently to do it. And again, if you find your neighbors aren't in agreement, you've joined the wrong community. You'll need to find a place in synch with your own beliefs, where policy is to pay teachers much less, that have fewer physical facilities, etc. It can be done.

Edited: I'm assuming you're in a town or suburb. If you're in a large city and you don't like the way real estate tax dollars are being spent, run for the hills because there won't be much you can do about it.

 

[youbet]

Not all states put the burden of education expenses on the tax bill. Iowa is one. My grandchildren go to a Lutheran school and the tuition is $500.00 per year for grades 1-6. I have been to the school, it's beautiful, and has everything the children need. My point is why public schools can’t compete on quality for the huge price they receive to teach.

Wow, that's impressive. If a classroom had 30 students and every penny of their tuition went directly to the teacher, that would be a salary of $15k/yr and no benefits whatsoever. That assumes not a penny going for the physical plant, administration, text books and supplies, etc. Those folks really have their act together on cost control.

 

[youbet]

I know this is going to cause a big explosion of words. Why not eliminate school taxes and just charge tuition? You got the kids, you pay, or maybe you could ask the Grandparents or the neighbors without kids to help out voluntarily.

The area where I would most like to see this applied is at the state universities. No tax subsidies! No schlorships! Students at state universities should pay the full cost of providing their education.

 

[W2R]

OK, I can't believe I am saying this since I generally prefer lower taxes and smaller government.

But an educated public is an advantage to the entire community. An educated public improves the quality of life. We lift ourselves as a society when we improve the educational level of the public. Here in Louisiana we have some of the worst schools in the country and the lack of a common educational background makes a huge difference in the quality of daily life.

A lesser reason for public education is that businesses are attracted to places where they can find a well educated, trained workforce and to places where their workers can sent their kids to good schools without paying high tuitions. That improves the economy.

I don't think throwing money at our educational problems is the answer, but neither is making schools out of reach to anyone but the wealthy. Good parenting and relevant, motivational curricula are vital.

 

[travelover]

Wow, that's impressive. If a classroom had 30 students and every penny of their tuition went directly to the teacher, that would be a salary of $15k/yr and no benefits whatsoever. That assumes not a penny going for the physical plant, administration, text books and supplies, etc. Those folks really have their act together on cost control.

My SIL taught in a Lutheran school and I believe her salary was around $20K with modest health care, no pension.

 

[haha]

Well I pay $1,200 property tax on a $47K home so I don't see $12,000 on a $470K home to be that outrageous...

Don't forget that is cost just as much to put out a fire in your house as it would in a mansion; if you have kids it would cost just as much to educate them as those of your neighbors in a mansion. Snow removal to get to your house would be no cheaper than to the homes of your big house neighbors. Police to patrol your neighborhood would cost as much or maybe more than patrols into wealthy districts.

So you are paying a pretty rate for your services.

Ha

 

[youbet]

But an educated public is an advantage to the entire community. An educated public improves the quality of life.

Can't disagree with that W2R. I guess my real point was that if we are going to have parents pay tuition for elementary school as was suggested, I'd much rather see the tax subsidies pulled from public colleges and universities first. It's one thing to miss out on a college education. Another to never get to attend elementary school and be illiterate.

 

[haha]

If only the parents pay for tuition, then there would be a considerably (I'm totally guessing at about 65%) less people having kids.
If there were 65% less children being born for too long, that would mean that there may not be enough to support the population as they age. And I'm not just referring to Social Security.

Catholics have been paying school taxes AND paying high tuition for their kids to go to parochial school for many many years.

It hasn't kept them from havng their share of kids.

Ha

 

[ERD50]

OK, I can't believe I am saying this since I generally prefer lower taxes and smaller government.

But an educated public is an advantage to the entire community. An educated public improves the quality of life.

Agreed, but why not have both?

Along with the above beliefs, I also believe that competition is good. So, if we had some kind of voucher system, and private schools were competing for a family's voucher money, we might get more education for fewer dollars?

Competition also solves another problem. I know some people are concerned that teachers unions sometimes have too much power. But, I have also heard the teacher's side of this - since there is only one employer in their state, they need some protection. Competition fixes that. If one private school does not treat their teachers right, the teachers can more easily move to another employer.

Now, to be honest, that's the first time I've given much thought to school vouchers. Maybe there are downsides, but it looks pretty good to me.

-ERD50

 

[youbet]

Agreed, but why not have both?

Along with the above beliefs, I also believe that competition is good. So, if we had some kind of voucher system, and private schools were competing for a family's voucher money, we might get more education for fewer dollars?

Competition also solves another problem. I know some people are concerned that teachers unions sometimes have too much power. But, I have also heard the teacher's side of this - since there is only one employer in their state, they need some protection. Competition fixes that. If one private school does not treat their teachers right, the teachers can more easily move to another employer.

Now, to be honest, that's the first time I've given much thought to school vouchers. Maybe there are downsides, but it looks pretty good to me.

-ERD50

The biggest issues with vouchers is the impact they would have on the private and parochial school systems. Currently these schools are extremely efficient and available to your kids right now. They collect tuition, run bake sales, car washes, Vegas nights, etc., etc. and somehow provide great educations for minimal bux. I don't want to taint them with public voucher money. They would never be the same afterwards.

And the huge increase in taxes would be painful! Right now, the private and parochial schools take care of themselves and taxes pay for the public schools. In your voucher proposal, all the kids who are currently private pays in the private systems would recieve vouchers at tax payers expense. No thanks........ In our town about half the kids attend private and parochial schools as private pays. A voucher system could nearly double my RE tax. Unless maybe you want to mail them vouchers from over your way.......

 

[youbet]

sorry double post.