annuity regret

Ready-4-ER-at-14

Full time employment: Posting here.
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Broker suggested we could put some cash that was sidelined for a few years into a 3 year guarantee period annuity back in 2020. Interest rate was ~1% for cds and this would get 1.65%. After about 2 or the 3 years (now) 1 year interest rates seem to be around 2.8% for fixed income.

There is always a substantial penalty for taking the money out and we would get a little less than 97% back right now. So far as I expected. My money locked in and rates went up but cash will be there when I wanted it.

On the back of the annuity statement they state the MGIR (min guaranteed rate) for the last year is now reduced to 1% based on calculation in the contract. Whether this supersedes the 1.65% in all cases or not I'm not sure but suspect so.

Broker made presentation with the annuity guy and pretty sure no mention was ever made of a reduction in rate if fixed income rates went up.
Maybe all annuities are this way but I feel deceived and not too happy about MassMutual products at the moment. Meeting with a different pair of people tomorrow to see if I will have problems getting the money back when product matures in a year and ask about the rate reduction.
 
From what you wrote it sounds like you will get 1.65% all 3 years Call and ask.
 
Look at it this way, you made more when rates were down and now it will even out. Could be worse, you could have lost money.
Highly suggest taking the cash when you get it out and build a fixed income ladder.
 
Broker suggested we could put some cash that was sidelined for a few years into a 3 year guarantee period annuity back in 2020. Interest rate was ~1% for cds and this would get 1.65%. After about 2 or the 3 years (now) 1 year interest rates seem to be around 2.8% for fixed income.



There is always a substantial penalty for taking the money out and we would get a little less than 97% back right now. So far as I expected. My money locked in and rates went up but cash will be there when I wanted it.



On the back of the annuity statement they state the MGIR (min guaranteed rate) for the last year is now reduced to 1% based on calculation in the contract. Whether this supersedes the 1.65% in all cases or not I'm not sure but suspect so.



Broker made presentation with the annuity guy and pretty sure no mention was ever made of a reduction in rate if fixed income rates went up.

Maybe all annuities are this way but I feel deceived and not too happy about MassMutual products at the moment. Meeting with a different pair of people tomorrow to see if I will have problems getting the money back when product matures in a year and ask about the rate reduction.


I think the minimum guaranteed rate is for new money added to the annuity, including interest reinvested. They usually all 10% withdrawals each year without penalty. Check your contract.
 
Thanks for the responses. I was aware I could take 10% out but the minimum guaranteed rate shook me. If it is 1% for new money not such a good deal but certainly ok for them to offer it.

I am ok with the thing paying less than the current higher rates as thing were dropping when i got it. I just thought maybe the last year interest rate was being changed.

The firm I got it from has a new annuity guy and I have a new broker there as old one was promoted to management. Scheduled to talk to them today to make sure the money (is Roth) gets safely back to the Roth account when it matures and not miss any possible redemption deadline. I will ask what the minimum guaranteed rate thing means to me.

So far that firm has treated us ok and has fixed a few minor problems and the balance of value of the mass mut product has been going up. So it very well may be my misunderstanding.
 
OP Same argument can be made for CDs and the high penalties to get out. The is not MYGA specific. Like anyone else buyer beware. Personally, we have NEVER bought fixed income vehicles for less than 3.85% and tolerate the ups and downs. Current MYGA rates are hard to resist, but I am waiting till the September rate decision. Maybe CDs will compete by then.
 
I looked at new MYGAs and decided I didn’t want the steep surrender charges. DW and I each had four annuities similar to MYGAs from USAA. I just closed one that matured and put the money into a CD ladder easily beating the rate I had. DW still has two annuities, one of which has matured. Her other one and my remaining one have about 18 months left. We don’t want to close her mature annuity for tax reasons, but will likely close it in January.
 
I think you’ve done OK compared to buying a CD at the time. No sense regretting the purchase until you are sure you understand the details. For the MYGA I purchased the minimum guaranteed rate kicks in after maturity if I leave the funds with the insurer or take systematic withdrawals. It is ~1% which seems OK to me. Annuities are very complicated compared to CDs.
 
I think you’ve done OK compared to buying a CD at the time. No sense regretting the purchase until you are sure you understand the details. For the MYGA I purchased the minimum guaranteed rate kicks in after maturity if I leave the funds with the insurer or take systematic withdrawals. It is ~1% which seems OK to me. Annuities are very complicated compared to CDs.

I am curious. How many pages is the MYGA agreement?
 
We just bought our 4th annuity (using 3 different brokers - Blueprint Income, Fidelity (2) and Stan the Annuity Man (1)), and EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. has been a massive PITA.

They take forever (roughly a month) from when you submit your application to even see a contract. BUT - and this is one I cannot for the life of me figure out - you usually have to send your funds in with the application or shortly (days) after. So, the annuity company has your (often large) check for weeks on end while you have NOTHING in exchange - and they can't tell you WHEN you'll get the contract beyond "soon" (which is seldom actually "soon").

When the contract finally does arrive, it's many pages of legal language that takes a good amount of effort to sort through and decipher. Fortunately, I wrote a lot of contracts for large (Fortune 500) deals over the years, so am reasonably adept at parsing legalize. But it takes real effort. And the language may not mean what you interpret it to mean as it's easy to get tripped up by language that professional lawyers spend a good amount of time crafting.

When you finally do manage to get one open..good luck forecasting the income. I have minor in Management and a major in Comp Sci and am really, really good at math. And it's taken me HOURS (and hours) to even begin to figure out how to do a simple little thing like forecast our actual income stream if we take interest-only payments monthly. That "should" be trivial with a simple spreadsheet. Or so I thought. NOPE! First 4 payments from our 1st annuity were NOTHING like I expected based on my mathematically correct spreadsheet. Because the insurance carrier, most of who'm have been around for 50-100+ years have IT systems that also have been around for decades. And those IT systems do things the way someone thought they should be done in 1960 or so..not the way you'd expect. I FINALLY figured out what one of the 4 is doing on the interest payments, even though the instructions are simple: deposit all interest earned during the calendar month and deposit into our personal checking at the end of the month. Simple, right? NOPE! And God help you if you try to get an answer out of their "Customer Service". The response was.."gee..they really don't tell us how to calculate interest.." Try emailing this other, third-party company that we outsource all that to..

Lastly, MYGAs don't work like CDs. There are no "transactions" such as a dividend payment listed on your customer portal (which generally look like they were coded in 1995). If you take a systematic or other distribution, that will be listed - but good freaking luck figuring out how they came up with the amount, because it may not be the amount you calculated or expected.

After the pain of the last 4 MYGA contracts (2 of which I'm still actually waiting to receive - even though the Annuities are open finally), I'm really hesitant to buy another one.

If I can find a 5-yr CD at 3.85% or higher anytime soon, I'm doing that next time. That's probably going to cost me ~.5% over what I could get with a similar duration MYGA, but as .5% is only $500 on $100K/yr, it's worth it just to not have to deal with the nightmare that I've found MYGAs to be to this point..

YMMV and best of luck for those who wade into these things. I MAY do a 5th one just as I had another CD mature and don't want to sit on the funds too long, but that will be my last unless CD rates just don't trend upward from here.
 
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I just received one. The basic info is on 2 pages, the rest are definitions mostly.

As someone who wrote contracts for a living (for Fortune 500 customers) as a big part of my job prior to ER, I'd recommend paying really close attention to those definitions as the devil is often very much in the details of that particular part..

My "basic info" pages on the MYGAs we've opened so far has also generally been 2-3 pages (out of 20-30+ total pages). But boy oh boy the stuff they sneak into the definitions. That's where things can get very tricky in my experience as it's not just typically definitions but many of the restrictions and "if thens" are actually buried in the "definitions" part. For example, in my latest one, there's actually quite a bit buried about restrictions on renewal periods, "surrender" timing and process, penalties, etc that is in the definitions section and nowhere else in the contract.
 
My "basic info" pages on the MYGAs we've opened so far has also generally been 2-3 pages (out of 20-30+ total pages). But boy oh boy the stuff they sneak into the definitions. That's where things can get very tricky in my experience as it's not just typically definitions but many of the restrictions and "if thens" are actually buried in the "definitions" part. For example, in my latest one, there's actually quite a bit buried about restrictions on renewal periods, "surrender" timing and process, penalties, etc that is in the definitions section and nowhere else in the contract.

Your experiences are SO WAY different from mine. I used Blueprint Income and selected an A rated company; they were great and reviewed my contract before I got it. I wired the funds directly to the insurance company. After a week I got confirmation, a contract number, and access to the insurance company's portal. Interest is posted DAILY on my portal. I cannot DL it, but I update my records once a month. The contract arrived a 3 weeks later with a 21 day bail out period that started the day I received the contract.

Penalties are listed in the contract and are exactly the same as what they were in the quote. 10% per year withdrawals are included at no charge, starting the first Year not second with no penalties. So, for me it has been plain sailing. I am looking for another 3 or 4, I do not intend on taking any of the money out for the contract period, but I always select a contract with no charge limited withdrawals for my peace of mind.

Sooooooo. YMMV
 
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I am curious. How many pages is the MYGA agreement?

Mine was about 60 pages and it WAS NOT 58 pages of definitions. There were a lot of repetitive details and pages of year by year tables for the various values.
 
Your experiences are SO WAY different from mine. I used Blueprint Income and selected an A rated company; they were great and reviewed my contract before I got it. I wired the funds directly to the insurance company. After a week I got confirmation, a contract number, and access to the insurance company's portal. Interest is posted DAILY on my portal. I cannot DL it, but I update my records once a month. The contract arrived a 3 weeks later with a 21 day bail out period that started the day I received the contract.

Penalties are listed in the contract and are exactly the same as what they were in the quote. 10% per year withdrawals are included at no charge, starting the first Year not second with no penalties.

Sooooooo. YMMV

Interest is posted DAILY on your portal? As in the amount of interest just generated that day, one new transaction line for every day? Or does the amount of the contract just increase by the amount of interest you earned and you have to subtract today's amount from yesterday's amount to determine it?

If your carrier is posting day by day interest transactions, mind sharing with us what company is doing that? I've used mostly A++ rated companies and haven't found one yet that does..

One of my carriers doesn't even update the "current policy balance" over weekends - probably because of ancient IT systems. (I checked this Sunday, which was the 31st, and it was still showing value "as of 7/29/22"). And their increases of annuity contract value seem hit and miss on whether they update daily or randomly skip days. So I can't even subtract today's value from yesterday's value to determine interest credited.

Oh, and on Blueprint..they do seem to always want the contract to go from the carrier to them first, so that they can review to make sure everything's right. That said, they gorked up on that with the contract I did with them and missed something super obvious - the interest rate was wrong, and they sent it to me anyway - and I caught that. If they're "checking the contract" prior to sending to the customer, how could they have missed one of the most important pieces of info? That's super basic, and they totally missed it.
 
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We just bought our 4th annuity (using 3 different brokers - Blueprint Income, Fidelity (2) and Stan the Annuity Man (1)), and EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. has been a massive PITA.

They take forever (roughly a month) from when you submit your application to even see a contract. BUT - and this is one I cannot for the life of me figure out - you usually have to send your funds in with the application or shortly (days) after. So, the annuity company has your (often large) check for weeks on end while you have NOTHING in exchange - and they can't tell you WHEN you'll get the contract beyond "soon" (which is seldom actually "soon").

Wow, I am surprised you are on your 4th contract. As for the part in bold, my experience was very different. While is does take a while to get the contract approved and funded, I did not send any money with the application. My funds stayed invested in the source accounts and the Annuity Issuer pulled the funds from Fidelity and the credit union only after the processing period was complete. My contracts are IRA funds so it could be a problem if the funds were in limbo for >60 days and I would lose the ability to do a rollover for 12 months.
 
Interest is posted DAILY on your portal? As in the amount of interest just generated that day, one new transaction line for every day? Or does the amount of the contract just increase by the amount of interest you earned and you have to subtract today's amount from yesterday's amount to determine it?

No, as you say it is cumulative. Posted as the contract's value for that day. This is fine with me; I can do basic math. I personally see no value in a line for every day. I would like to see a line for every month but will not lose sleep over it.

As interest is compounded ANNUALLY and not daily as stated in their contract and the information I received before I complete the purchase. I do not see the value of more granular information.

Perhaps your expectations are a lot higher than mine. I like it just as it is. Keeping it simple, which is why I selected MYGA's in the first place.
 
While is does take a while to get the contract approved and funded, I did not send any money with the application. My funds stayed invested in the source accounts and the Annuity Issuer pulled the funds from Fidelity and the credit union only after the processing period was complete.

Like you I only wired the funds when requested to.
 
No, as you say it is cumulative. Posted as the contract's value for that day. This is fine with me; I can do basic math. I personally see no value in a line for every day. I would like to see a line for every month but will not lose sleep over it.

As interest is compounded ANNUALLY and not daily as stated in their contract and the information I received before I complete the purchase. I do not see the value of more granular information.

Perhaps your expectations are a lot higher than mine. I like it just as it is. Keeping it simple, which is why I selected MYGA's in the first place.

We're using MYGAs (and CDs) to generate income to pay the bills month to month. So, not only being able to forecast - but also to get consistently accurate payments monthly - is a bigger deal to us apparently.

So far, our first MYGA has been a nightmare trying to get that basic thing done. The first payment was for two (not one) months, because they couldn't get our request form processed quickly enough and our April 22 payment "slipped". Then, the second month only went through the 28th - not 31st - presumably because the month ended on a weekend, so their system decided "end of month" was Friday instead. Then, the following month started not on the 29th of the preceding month but the 1st of the following month. Fortunately, that month didn't end on a weekend, so we received a whole month of interest that time around.

Crazily enough, the 3 days of interest between "end of month" on Friday May 28th and the actual end of May (5/29, 5/30 and 5/31) were never paid out. Fortunately, they are part of the contract balance and I could technically request they be paid anytime (as we get max 10% withdrawal a year), so there's that..but still..

I was an IT guy pre-retirement, so I'm guessing that their systems are just coded really, really badly. But it still is a disadvantage over something like a CD when you have to frog around with that kind of inconsistency. CDs don't have these issues..MYGAs - depending on the carrier, of course - can.

One other thing to mention is that many MYGAs compound daily. That may seem like an advantage at first, but it's not - because the advertised yield is APY, and you're getting APR compounded daily. If you don't take any $$ out during the year, you'll have accumulated the APY yield in terms of rate * start of year contract value. But if you (like we do) take $$ out in form of regular interest (or other) payments, you won't be getting the full value of the "yield" as you need to leave all $$s in the account throughout the year to have received APY * beginning of year starting balance. And there can be a not insignificant difference. In our case, it was a couple hundred dollars a year, which meant we were actually realizing APY - X% in return (actually APR compounded daily), not APY.

ETA - it'd be pretty nice if the carriers could at least post monthly interest line items. It "should" be easy enough to do the math to calculate the interest credited - HOWEVER - the carrier system also has to update the balance consistently, which is something else I've seen not happen. For instance - just the other day (Sun the 31st), I was seeing "balance as of 7/29" - but it did not match my 7/29 forecast. It DID match my 7/*28* forecast, so I had to assume that what the system was saying was "balance as of 7/29, before we applied 7/29 interest" - ie: pre-interest credit balance vs post-interest credit balance. And there doesn't seem to be any consistency - ie: I can't always assume "balance as of X" date actually means "balance as of X-1 date" because it's been variable. Sometimes the interest shows in the #, sometimes it doesn't. Even if you figure out how ONE carrier's systems work from a logic standpoint, every carrier is likely going to be different..

If these things work for you guys, that's great. But so far, I've found them to be a big disappointment in terms of what we are trying to do - which is simply generate interest in a predictable fashion, have that interest deposited monthly to our checking account to pay the bills, and be able to forecast with accuracy what those interest payment streams will be. Also not a fan of the carrier having a couple hundred K$ of our money for weeks on end when I don't have a contract in my hands, or to even have a contract to review BEFORE they ask me to send a big pile of cash..I've never been in a business deal where money moves BEFORE contracts. Why it's that way with Annuities is beyond me. I've asked Fidelity - they don't know. I even asked Stan himself - HE doesn't know. Both just tell me "that's just the way it's done". Hmmmm..

PS: this was all with a big, Fortune 500 insurance carrier that everyone knows - A++ rated with a Comdex in the high 90s. We've stayed with A++ rated carriers across the board to this point, and all of them have had issues.
 
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We're using MYGAs (and CDs) to generate income to pay the bills month to month. So, not only being able to forecast - but also to get consistently accurate payments monthly - is a bigger deal to us apparently.

MYGAs are not really designed for that. Perhaps you should have selected a SPIA instead.
 
MYGAs are not really designed for that. Perhaps you should have selected a SPIA instead.

Why not? They pay a fixed rate of return for a guaranteed period of time and are often called "the insurance industry's equivalent to CDs".

They also have great tax deferral advantages with interest earned only being taxable in the year it's withdrawn.

You also get all of your principal back at the end of the Guarantee Period, unlike a SPIA, where you're purchasing an income stream over time with no return of principal aside from death benefit and similar riders.

Not all of our MYGAs get interest pulled..I'm staggering some to withdraw next year and years beyond that.

I don't see anything wrong with using the "insurance industry's CD" as a higher yield substitute for a traditional brokered or bank CD or CU Certificate..and in fact there are advantages over those products, PITA process issues aside.
 
My strategy would be to put a small amount into a MYGA with a short term maturity so that I can see the process in action end-to-end (including taxation and what happens at the end of the term). If things work out as expected, I would then consider moving the big money in.

This has how I have always approached complicated financial transactions that can have bad results if not executed properly.

-gauss
 
My strategy would be to put a small amount into a MYGA with a short term maturity so that I can see the process in action end-to-end (including taxation and what happens at the end of the term). If things work out as expected, I would then consider moving the big money in.

This has how I have always approached complicated financial transactions that can have bad results if not executed properly.

-gauss

+1

Strange as it may seem I do the same thing. The first time I used an online CD ladder builder, I created and bought a ladder with the minimum amount necessary. I wanted to make certain I new how to operate the controls. I've been tripped up too many times because I didn't know what I didn't know.

And, I do the same thing if I have to switch auto mechanics. First job is always a simple oil and filter change. Did they do it right? Are the fluids topped off? Tire pressures OK? Spare? (Real bonus points to be earned there) Did they really check the cabin air filter? I can be a sneaky >:D.
 
That is what I did too, but my little one was not so little at $200k. It was still a test though to see how the process went. I will be doing a few more when I feel the returns are good. I watch them every day. It is all with after tax money (unqualified) that we do not need immediately so I can get tax deferral. We do not intend on taking out anything until full maturity, but I like the 10% per year option for my peace of mind. I was very happy with the way this one went so I am waiting for more offerings from different A and above rated companies to keep well withing the Florida Guarantee association's $250k limit per person per company.
 
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