Another challenge for electric vehicles

[NW-Bound]

Documented here with footnotes for sources as well: https://www.eia.gov/state/analysis.php?sid=ME

Thanks.

From that site: "Hydroelectric turbines produce almost one-third of Maine's net electricity generation, the largest share of any state east of the Mississippi River except for Vermont".

I also learned that Maine burns a lot of wood, for heat as well as electricity generation. If the forest is replanted after the wood is harvested, I guess they consider it "renewable" and "green".

 

[Offgrid Organic Farmer]

... I also learned that Maine burns a lot of wood, for heat as well as electricity generation. If the forest is replanted after the wood is harvested, I guess they consider it "renewable" and "green".

When I lived in Washington, I saw forestry, where they require clear-cut forest land, must all be 're-planted'.

But here in Maine, forest tends to re-spawn itself, so re-planted is not required by law.

The difference is drought.

If there is enough water in the soil, trees will re-span themselves within a community of trees.

But if an area is drought-prone, they can not do this.

I own a woodlot, my land is forest. I have to deal with foresters on a regular basis, to recertify my land as forest.

 

[Texas Proud]

I can not really comment on carbon footprints, or whatever elitist thing you folks think is going on.

The last time that we wanted to get a new car, we started with a list of the lowest priced MSRP vehicles. We visited all the local dealerships, focusing on those lowest priced models. At that time the fourth model from the top of our list, turned out to be the most comfortable that we had been in. It handled great, and it is a plug-in hybrid.

Starting from the cheapest new car on the dealer lots, we test drove four vehicles, starting from the absolute cheapest, to the second cheapest, etc. Until we found the car we liked the most, at $27k.

By our good fortune it is also the highest MPG of all those cars we looked at.

So the almost cheapest car, gets the highest mileage, handles great and it is very comfortable for four adults to ride in.

If we recharged it using grid power, a recharge would cost around 50-cents.

I am kind of surprised to see so much hatred displayed in this thread.

I do not think it is hatred... as ERD points out it is critical discussion with numbers...


What kind of car did you get? I would want to compare it to what is available without the hybrid/plug in mode... the calculations that I have seen (admit it has been awhile) shows that many cars never pay for the extra cost and the ones that do take upward of 100,000 miles...


Right now I have a 10 yo car with 90K... a 5 yo car with 25K and our SUV at 4 years with 30K... so in my mind no EV/hybrid is worth the extra money... now, if and when they are the same price or cheaper I am all over it for the car we would not use for long distance... I would still go with ICE for that... plus, I still need to tow the boat...

 

[Offgrid Organic Farmer]

... What kind of car did you get?

I have two Prius', a 'regular' one with 166k+ miles on it, and a plug-in with 80k miles on it. These things regularly go over 300k miles.

... never pay for the extra cost ... in my mind no EV/hybrid is worth the extra money ...

'extra' cost? 'Extra' money, maybe we are in two different conversations.

I paid $27k for the Prius plug-in.

Are you thinking that hybrids cost more?

 

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
So can you show me a post I've made that "clearly shows I dislike EVs"? As I said, I don't think you will find one. You will find many posts where I objectively point out some of the negatives. I even occasionally mention the positives, but others here have covered that more than adequately, so I don't chime in much on that.

You did see the other 62 words in the post I quoted. Maybe I just agreeing with the overall sentiment and not each individual word? ...

I apologize if my clipping some of that quote (from posts #98, #96, and back to #92) made my response seem out of context, I certainly didn't intend that and don't like it when it happens to me.

I do try to clip quotes to the relevant section as not bog down these threads with more and more text, and to focus on the main issue. Looking back, I don't really see the problem - the remaining section was all related, essentially claiming that "I don't like EVs", which is attacking my motives rather than actually addressing the content of my posts.

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
This smugness is getting to me. The EV fans are looking for support, but I think they are just creating a backlash with all this diversion and smoke and mirrors. At this point, if some place I frequent started offering free charging for EVs, I'd ask for a top off of my gas tank. Why not? What's the deal? That EV isn't saving the planet, why am I paying for their travel? It's getting aggravating.

-ERD50

This argument is narrow minded. Where does one begin to save the planet? I assume you do not believe carbon emission is, in part, causing global warming. According NASA, we have :


Carbon dioxide (CO2)
Methane
Nitrous oxide
Chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs)


All accelerated by human activities. Which one should we address? How do even begin to bring this planet to normalcy? At least EV's are a start and an individuals contribution to the bigger issue.

"I assume you do not believe carbon emission is, in part, causing global warming."

You would be wrong about that, and I have no idea why you would assume that. Why do you assume that?

I accept that carbon emissions are influencing global warming. I also don't think it is all that simple, and that there may well be other stabilizing effects that would provide some negative feedback, and possibly others that would create a runaway positive feedback. It's complicated.

However it really doesn't matter much at all with regard to EVs. EVs really don't reduce carbon emissions much, if at all, compared to a decent hybrid. As I've pointed out umpteen times, EVs are mostly running on fossil fuel, RE is limited, there isn't any 'extra' for the added demand created by a fleet of EVs.

And since decent hybrids don't have the limitations that EVs do for many people who need occasional long trips, and who may not have ready access to chargers, there may be more overall improvement by pushing hybrids for the masses, rather than pushing EVs for a smaller subset of drivers/miles. Here's the chart I've posted umpteen times, the white bar is carbon emissions (I'll skip over methane, Nitrous oxide, and Chlorofluorocarbons for now):


"This argument is narrow minded" Quite the contrary - I'm trying to be open and wide-minded. Instead of focusing on a specific technology (EVs), I'm looking for solutions, wherever they may appear. As I've said before, I am technology agnostic when it comes to things like this - whatever gets the job done. Which may very well mean different tools for different jobs, not a "one size fits all".

And I'd appreciate it if you simply asked a question of me, or challenged the content of my post, rather than reverting to assumptions, and calls of "narrow mindedness". Thanks.

Oh, and for "How do even begin to bring this planet to normalcy? " - that's a BIG one that I'll save that for later, maybe even a new thread, or one of the old RE threads.

-ERD50

 

[Montecfo]

From my perspective, this has been a fascinating thread with a robust exchange of ideas. Love the historical perspective. Evs have been out there a long time.

Characterizing someone's viewpoint as "hate" does not advance the discussion in my view.

Myself, I am very "green" in that I view economic$ as the most important consideration. I consider the drawbacks of plugin hybrids and EVs to make them uneconomic for my use. I understand they work for some people.

I do not believe the earth has a thermostat than can be adjusted by driving a different vehicle. One nation has reduced carbon emissions and that is the US. But there is no plan to do so worldwide, and the greatest sources of carbon and growth of carbon emissions, China and India, are continuing to grow emissions rapidly. The Paris Accords do nothing to stop this.

In fact, there is no plan that has been proposed that even pretends it will stop the planet from warming.

The focus should be on adaptation, in my view.

 

[dixonge]

I only have two complaints about this thread:


1 - Some of you insist on quoting people I have on my ignore list, which means their words invade my eyeballs. Not helpful! LOL
2 - You can't put a moderator on ignore. Which would be fine if moderators didn't jump in on controversial topics and take sides. Just a pet peeve of mine...


Having said that, this thread was very demonstrative of why so many are on my ignore list to begin with. There is a direct correlation between those who don't accept anthropogenic causes of climate change (or that the climate is even changing) and those who think EV's are a waste of time. Peruse any thread on either topic and it becomes clear. And since I have this illness where I am *compelled* to counter arguments even if it is hopeless/useless, using the ignore feature saves me from this fate. And I heartily endorse the reverse! I'd be perfectly fine if all those on my ignore list ignored me in return. I think it would make for a much saner reading experience. Also good for one's blood pressure

 

[Aerides]

Mods are members first, and free to post as all members are. Within our small team, we also have diverse opinions. We can and do take different sides on many topics. More often than most may be aware, we try to stay out of the more contentious discussions.

That said, this thread has become simply another argument of posters shouting past each other, and the mod team has agreed to close this thread. Those who feel compelled to continue the EV discussion are welcome to visit the Tesla thread.