Any tips for corporate climbers?

[REWahoo]

If after 20-25 years of that you dont have enough put away to quit or at least go part time or change to that lower paying but more rewarding job...well...somethings wrong.

Didn't you really intend to say "After 20-25 years of that...you've had enough to be put away...."

REW

 

[retire@40]

Roughly 50% of businesses that have employees that are more than the owner and his/her family fail within the first 5 years.  About 65% within 10 years.

The problem with those stats is that they include "selling the business" in the failed category.  Just because a business owner gets out of the business doesn't necessarily mean that he failed.  Many people I know have a 5 or 10 year plan to start a business, build it up and make as much money as they can while they are in it, and then sell it at a profit.

In fact, many entrepreneurs actually get bored running a small business.  The thrill with them is to start businesses.  After a few years when the business is up an running, they sell out to start another one.

I recommend anyone starting a business to read "E-Myth" as a good primer.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

The problem with those stats is that they include "selling the business" in the failed category.

True, but the stat gatherers also noted what they felt was a 'substantial under-reporting of business stops'. Note that this is the stat outfit that banks use to entice people to start businesses (and take out loans to do it). That pushes my gut-button in the direction of believing these stats are probably better than reality. Considering the stats from the people who want you to believe its not so good suggest a sub 20% rate of successful profitability from a business start, the truth probably lay somewhere in the middle.

I cant really say for sure, having no direct experience with this. All I have is a couple of well financed, well employed, successful startups from the 80's and a lot of small business investment activity I engaged as part of my last job.

By the way, what I can say is there is a LOT of dysfunction in small businesses once they get past the handful of employees phase. I actually saw LESS tomfoolery and what a lot of people would call 'politics' in the 50k employee company I joined in 1992 than the 12 employee company I was with just prior. A lot of the small businesses that I oversaw investing in were pretty dang off the wall too.

 

[laurence]

I cant really say for sure, having no direct experience with this. All I have is a couple of well financed, well employed, successful startups from the 80's and a lot of small business investment activity I engaged as part of my last job.

Is that all? Knowing a lot less than that about a subject has not stopped a lot of us from commenting profusely anyway.

I've had several friends start small businesses, and I could tell quite easily who would succeed and who wouldn't without hearing anything about their business model. There are personality types who will suceed at this, and ones that won't. One guy had 4 false starts before getting a winner up and running, and a lot of his acquired knowledge and purchases were able to roll over from one to the next. I think statistics are only so useful in this category.

 

[Nords]

There are personality types who will suceed at this, and ones that won't.  One guy had 4 false starts before getting a winner up and running, and a lot of his acquired knowledge and purchases were able to roll over from one to the next.  I think statistics are only so useful in this category.

I think it's misguided to pick a career by its FIRE opportunities. I sure didn't.

"Do what you love" is probably a trite cliche, but you have to pursue a personal interest if you're going to succeed at life, let alone financially. And you may have to pursue it through more than one bankruptcy if you're interested in owning your own business. That's just tuition payments at the School of Experience.

I think every career has FIRE potential if it's pursued in a profitable manner. What one person might see as a waste of a liberal-arts education might enable another to start a career of non-profit charity service while a third grows rich exploiting an overlooked profit niche. Forbes & Fortune are full of those stories.

The key is LBYM. You can't easily raise your salary, but just about everyone can raise their savings.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Is that all? Knowing a lot less than that about a subject has not stopped a lot of us from commenting profusely anyway.

Indeed, the less one knows about something, the further one can opine and in far more non-salient directions...the opportunity to form completely ridiculous assertions is unlimited!

 

[ER@40]

Makes me wonder what people make that get to ER fast...any takers?

In my opinion, you must must must only accept work where your superiors make a lot more money than you (i.e. multiples of), and/or where bonuses are substantial (50-100% of salary min.), or where the budget for contractors and the amount of billable hours is open-ended.

I have a ways to go but the path for me so far has been through IT contracting (specialist areas only), and Wall St style IT roles. A lot depends on what you're studying?

Also years of corporate work can burn you out too, you need to work hard in the years where pay is good, and not be afraid of sabbaticals to recharge for the other times.

I've made many mistakes along the way, too many many times in my 20's pay was repeatedly capped at 60-100k no matter how hard I worked. I went into self employed IT consulting but it proved tricky, decent projects always went to the Accenture type outfits, who then often subcontract the work to specialist independents like me anyhow. At least the pay though was in large chunks (as with bonuses), easier to bank these away.

I think you asked for an example. My last job was as ordinary Wall St analyst, Gross pay was 200-250k/yr (plus options). The work was based in the Midwest, so costs were low (always a critical aspect).

 

[Spanky]

Here is an interesting article on "A PRACTICAL GUIDE TO LIFE, Advice I'd Give My Adult Child" by Marty Nemko http://www.martynemko.com/pub/articles/practicalguidetolife.shtm

A few words from that article:

Other status seekers prostitute themselves to climb the corporate ladder. They kiss up to their bosses and work 60+-hour workweeks, smilingly willing to uproot themselves and their families for a few years in Dubuque, Tuscaloosa, or any goddamn place the Company wants to dump them. They endure years of theoretical crap in an MBA program so they can put those three letters, MBA, on their resume. And for what? So they can get a title of vice president, and after their 12-hour cover-their-butt workday, collapse on their sofa, get blitzed, and stare at their oversized living room in their oversized neighborhood wondering, “Is that all there is?”

He has other articles on career development.

Spanky

 

[retire@40]

Other status seekers prostitute themselves to climb the corporate ladder. They kiss up to their bosses and work 60+-hour workweeks, smilingly willing to uproot themselves and their families for a few years in Dubuque, Tuscaloosa, or any goddamn place the Company wants to dump them. They endure years of theoretical crap in an MBA program so they can put those three letters, MBA, on their resume. And for what? So they can get a title of vice president, and after their 12-hour cover-their-butt workday, collapse on their sofa, get blitzed, and stare at their oversized living room in their oversized neighborhood wondering, “Is that all there is?” [/i]

This is a great definition for "Living Hell."

 

[wildcat]

I think you asked for an example. My last job was as ordinary Wall St analyst, Gross pay was 200-250k/yr (plus options)

Sounds great but even after I finish grad school I doubt I will ever touch that range. I just have a hard time thinking people make that much but I get I asked what it took to get to ER fast.

 

[Spanky]

I think you have to graduate (top of your class) with an MBA in finance from Wharton and recruited by Wall Street. Here is a breakdown of a financial analyst: $40,000 (bottom), $81,000 (medium), $321,000 (top). For 2004, merger specialists expect to receive total compensation on average of $900,000, while commodities traders in oil and gas can expect to earn $1.3 million or more.

SPanky

 

[wildcat]

I think you have to graduate (top of your class) with an MBA in finance from Wharton and recruited by Wall Street

For 2004, merger specialists expect to receive total compensation on average of $900,000, while commodities traders in oil and gas can expect to earn $1.3 million or more.

I wish. I also wish I was 7 feet tall with a wicked hook.

 

[Eagle43]

Here is an interesting article on "A PRACTICAL GUIDE TO LIFE, Advice I'd Give My Adult Child" by Marty Nemko http://www.martynemko.com/pub/articles/practicalguidetolife.shtm

A few words from that article:

Other status seekers prostitute themselves to climb the corporate ladder. They kiss up to their bosses and work 60+-hour workweeks, smilingly willing to uproot themselves and their families for a few years in Dubuque, Tuscaloosa, or any goddamn place the Company wants to dump them. They endure years of theoretical crap in an MBA program so they can put those three letters, MBA, on their resume. And for what? So they can get a title of vice president, and after their 12-hour cover-their-butt workday, collapse on their sofa, get blitzed, and stare at their oversized living room in their oversized neighborhood wondering, “Is that all there is?”

He has other articles on career development.

Spanky

Great article Spanky. He even recommends Vanguard. How can this guy be wrong?? His comments concerning health and Do what you love and you'll probably starve, are right on.

 

[johnlw]

Here are the "7 habits" for a successful manager in Corporate America:

Develop a superhuman tolerance for stupidity.

Be prepared to enforce company policy that conflicts with your personal ethics.

Learn to speak out of both sides of your mouth at the same time.

Be prepared to tout the long term "strategy" or "vision" your upper management rolls out. Accordingly, be prepared to rapidly discard it and to embrace the new long term "strategy" or "vision" that comes along six months later.

Accept the fact that you will have to give 60 to 70 hours of your life to the corporation every week.

Think of employees as "resources" instead of human beings.

Learn to embrace, love, and spew bullshit.

 

[Mr._johngalt]

Here are the "7 habits" for a successful manager in Corporate America:

Develop a superhuman tolerance for stupidity.

Be prepared to enforce company policy that conflicts with your personal ethics.

Learn to speak out of both sides of your mouth at the same time.

Be prepared to tout the long term "strategy" or "vision" your upper management rolls out. Accordingly, be prepared to rapidly discard it and to embrace the new  long term "strategy" or "vision" that comes along six months later.

Accept the fact that you will have to give 60 to 70 hours of your life to the corporation every week.

Think of employees as "resources" instead of human beings.

Learn to embrace, love, and spew bull****.

Without comment on the validity of this list, I do admit that I still
practice Habit No. 7

JG

 

[unclemick]

Yep.

No. 7 works for me too. Plus - several meetings?/doughnut shop group ins per week with fellow retiree's wherein we sharpen our skills in pontification.

 

[Spanky]

I wish. I also wish I was 7 feet tall with a wicked hook.

Wildcat,

You do not have to graduate from Wharton. A coworker says that his friends from college with an MBA from the University of Michigan are doing extremely well financially in Wall Street but not sure mentally because of the stress and long hours. My take is that it is not a bad price to pay since you could ER after only a few years of work.

Spanky

 

[ER@40]

Sounds great but even after I finish grad school I doubt I will ever touch that range.    I just have a hard time thinking people make that much but I get I asked what it took to get to ER fast.

Try and not lose heart. It took 15 years of grind to get there. And the truth is - I was just a grunt. But I was of service to people who were considered important in their field and made serious money. Many ex-bosses were millionaires already, and still addicted to spending all day making more and that's the important thing.

After all, one can be a PA to a Sales Manager or a CEO, do roughly the same type of work and get vastly different rewards . . . Look at it  another way. Lets say you want to make 100k and you feel you deserve it, but your Boss makes only 90k, its not going to happen IMHO.

 

[ER@40]

You do not have to graduate from Wharton. A coworker says that his friends from college with an MBA from the University of Michigan are doing extremely well financially in Wall Street but not sure mentally because of the stress and long hours. My take is that it is not a bad price to pay since you could ER after only a few years of work.

Second that. I for one haven't even a masters. Had no knowledge of the markets whatsoever. But at the time, I had killer knowledge of Excel. I could build things for the Traders that their internal IT guys said weren't possible, and that's what they liked.

So you don't necessarily require an ideal background but you need to have something to offer, to bargain with, try and be useful in other ways, and be practical.

You might be surprised to know, that many folks I’ve met along the way especially Traders, have surprisingly limited academic backgrounds. Having the right MBA doesn't automatically make you useful. Its what you are able to contribute that matters.

 

[Mr._johngalt]

Second that. I for one haven't even a masters. Had no knowledge of the markets whatsoever. But at the time, I had killer knowledge of Excel. I could build things for the Traders that their internal IT guys said weren't possible, and that's what they liked.

So you don't necessarily require an ideal background but you need to have something to offer, to bargain with, try and be useful in other ways, and be practical.

You might be surprised to know, that many folks I’ve met along the way especially Traders, have surprisingly limited academic backgrounds. Having the right MBA doesn't automatically make you useful. Its what you are able to contribute that matters.

I have a 2 year degree from a community college and was CEO of
4 different corporations (and officer level in several others). So, it can be done. You need a niche though.

JG

 

[wildcat]

Having the right MBA doesn't automatically make you useful. Its what you are able to contribute that matters

Trust me I know about this one. I get tired of hearing people tell me I will have it made once I finish. They don't know what the hell they are talking about.

So you don't necessarily require an ideal background but you need to have something to offer, to bargain with, try and be useful in other ways, and be practical.

You need a niche though.

Working on that part

 

[gratefuled]

Two comments:

-The advice to acquire Excel expertise is spot on. I've seen it time and again: if you know Excel inside and out you'll have more job security, better service reviews, and coworkers who like having you around. I strongly recommend being the best Excel-nik in the office.

-I think the best time to get an MBA is straight out of undergraduate school. This is contrarian, but think about it. You're young and you're in full-time student mode. You're able to enjoy the social side of college. You'll have a couple more years to polish your job-hunting skills. You'll be spared a crappy post-undergrad entry-level position. And you'll look like a whiz kid.

Ed

 

[wildcat]

think the best time to get an MBA is straight out of undergraduate school. This is contrarian, but think about it. You're young and you're in full-time student mode. You're able to enjoy the social side of college. You'll have a couple more years to polish your job-hunting skills. You'll be spared a crappy post-undergrad entry-level position. And you'll look like a whiz kid.

Opionions vary but I went back after 2 years. I am still young and felt I went back before the 'other' parts of life took over. I will post my update when the job search rolls around...should be interesting to see what kinds of jobs I am offered and not offered.

Yeah agree 1000% on Excel and I will be spending a lot of my summer off working on those intangibles.

 

[laurence]

Personal update: it's been pretty much agreed that I'm going to take over as manager of the department when my boss leaves. I'm kind of excited, more than a little trepidatious, but glad to have avoided the other scenario I alluded to on another thread. The person who would have the best chance other than me just didn't seem motivated enough to be an ideal manager (nice guy though). I had a conversation with him and before I could finish my second sentence he said with great relief, "I think you'd be a great manager, I like that scenario a lot!". So now I guess I'm a corporate climber....

 

[Nords]

Personal update: it's been pretty much agreed that I'm going to take over as manager of the department when my boss leaves.  So now I guess I'm a corporate climber...

So, Laurence, does this mean that you have to go back and edit your "Stupid #&%!!$% Job!!!" post?

Which Skywalker are you-- Anakin or Luke?