Anyone on the forum also living in Switzerland?

No question about it. Switzerland is about 30% more expensive on most things, like housing and food. But wine and electronics are reasonably priced. You learn to wait for sales and buy things when they offer 3 in a bundle, that sort of thing. We rent our flat because we could never afford to buy it or anything like it (on the local lake). But that's okay at this point in our lives. We can always downsize over time to cheaper flats if our income fails to match our expenses. Lucky for us, inflation has been just less than zero for a few years until this one. But in general inflation is very low and the Swiss franc is very stable.

I don't ski but do a lot of hiking, which is free.

-BB

We have an Aligro store near our home in Ecublens. It's like Costco but a bit pricier. However it's cheeper than Coop or Migro. They have a good wine selection. You can get some fine Brunello wines at a fraction of the price compared to here. Real estate is extremely expensive around Lausanne. Twenty seven years ago a small tear down home cost about 750K CHF. Today the same tear down costs about 1.8M CHF or about $2M. By the time you build your basic home, you will be up to about $2.7M USD. It's no wonder 73% of the country rents.
 
If I could live my life over I would have purchased a condo in Switzerland. I have been going there for the last 20 years mainly to the mountain village of Wengen that over looks the Lauterbrunnen Valley. The country is drop dead gorgeous. We like to hike/walk. There are yellow signs everywhere pointing to paths and how long it takes to get to the next destination. They allow you to walk thru farms without feeling like you are intruding on someone's private property. Can't do that in America. I agree with others, lunch is usually good but dinners are extremely pricey.

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We spent a week in Wengen, traveling all over on a rail pass. I see why you love it.

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We spent a week in Wengen, traveling all over on a rail pass. I see why you love it.

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Nice review. Very detailed. Even the airline seat was covered. I agree with you, sitting in economy is not worth the pain and suffering. Swiss Airlines Business Class is nice also. We have taken it several times.
 
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We are planning a visit to Switzerland in September while on our way to the World Road Cycling Championships in Innsbruck. I am very much looking forward to seeing these beautiful places.
 
Lucky for us, inflation has been just less than zero for a few years until this one. But in general inflation is very low and the Swiss franc is very stable.
-BB

Can you clarify this one?

A few years back the CHF jumped 30% in one day ...
 
Can you clarify this one?

A few years back the CHF jumped 30% in one day ...

I am talking about inflation -- the rise in costs of goods and services, not the currency exchange rate with other currencies. There was a big one day change a few years ago when the Swiss National Bank made a policy decision about containing the franc's rise against the euro, which was hurting exports. This year so far the franc/US dollar pair has moved from .97 down to .93 and is just slightly above parity today.

-BB
 
I like that it has a lot of important nonprofit organizations headquartered here that were founded here: International Red Cross, Doctors Without Borders, for example. It has a vibrant economy based on highly skilled labor and innovation and it provides a very sane and stable system for all workers to retire comfortably with a pension plus social security. Decisions made about this system are made without a lot of political posturing and tend to build upon the past, not undo it. Financial planning is a lot easier here.

Thanks Bryan. All of your thoughtful post made for interesting reading. The part about so many nonprofit organizations being headquartered in Switzerland was unexpected.

The country sounds idyllic in many ways. Particularly after seeing some of the photos folks have posted. The one of the pastures overlooking the Lauterbrunnen Valley is outstanding. One wonders, though, how much it would cost to purchase even just the small farm hut standing in that meadow!
 
Thanks Bryan. All of your thoughtful post made for interesting reading. The part about so many nonprofit organizations being headquartered in Switzerland was unexpected.

The country sounds idyllic in many ways. Particularly after seeing some of the photos folks have posted. The one of the pastures overlooking the Lauterbrunnen Valley is outstanding. One wonders, though, how much it would cost to purchase even just the small farm hut standing in that meadow!

Switzerland is very idyllic outside the cities. There is a lot of natural beauty and the countryside is clean and well maintained. You notice a dramatic difference when your cross the border from France and Italy into Switzerland. No offence to the French and Italians but they do make it up with their cuisine. However, Switzerland does have terrible problem with graffiti along the main autoroutes and inside many cities and villages. It's sad to see that. They have a drug problem but control it by providing addicts with free methadone and clean needles. Prostitution is legal and controlled. They even have drive in sex boxes in some cities. Other cities such as Lausanne have red light districts. Religion appears to be a low priority and very few appear to attend church. My brother-in-law predicts that organized religion will be extinct in Switzerland in about 10 years. This is true for many countries in Europe. It is very safe so they are doing something right. I will say cities such as Vevey-Montreaux, Lugano and villages such as Gruyeres are so stunning that it will make your head spin.
 
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Oh my gosh -those pictures bring back amazing memories of my many trips to Lauterbrunnen and Grindelwald - skiing, hiking, biking....I *love* that part of Switzerland. I also liked Meiringen and thought about retiring there. However, one must have a lot of $$$ to do it effectively. I've also done half the Tour du Mont Blanc with two days of it in Switzerland. Been to Bern, Basel, and other German border towns with Schweiz. Just being near the Swiss Alps was so relaxing-I've skied Crans-Montana, Davos, St Moritz.....Having a car and paying for gas also takes ones breath away there for the costs. You are right, the food can be quite peasant-like, although a rosti and fondue are wonderful after a long days skiing or hike. The Italian Swiss area is very nice, too. In any case, I can see why you are there. Thanks for the great pics - so beautiful.
 
Oh my gosh -those pictures bring back amazing memories of my many trips to Lauterbrunnen and Grindelwald - skiing, hiking, biking....I *love* that part of Switzerland. I also liked Meiringen and thought about retiring there. However, one must have a lot of $$$ to do it effectively. I've also done half the Tour du Mont Blanc with two days of it in Switzerland. Been to Bern, Basel, and other German border towns with Schweiz. Just being near the Swiss Alps was so relaxing-I've skied Crans-Montana, Davos, St Moritz.....Having a car and paying for gas also takes ones breath away there for the costs. You are right, the food can be quite peasant-like, although a rosti and fondue are wonderful after a long days skiing or hike. The Italian Swiss area is very nice, too. In any case, I can see why you are there. Thanks for the great pics - so beautiful.

Deserat,
The food in Ticino, Italian Switzerland, is really good, as you might imagine, given the influence of our immediate neighbor to the south of us. Just to note however, the brilliant photos posted so far have not been mine; but were contributed by Freedom56 and Check6. If I have a moment this week, I will post some of the glorious canton Ticino to complete the picture, so to speak!

-BB
 
My wife and I visited Lugano for an afternoon during our honeymoon while staying in nearby Como. Thought Lugano was very nice but I will say Como took the cake for me. I also remember our lunch out being as expensive as a nice dinner in Brunate was.

Question to OP - Are you are an expat and did your earning and saving in US and retired to Switzerland, or did you do some earning years there as well? When you moved, did you have more saved than you planned and thus decided you could handle the exchange rate hit effectively increasing withdrawal rates by 30% or whatever the number is? Or did you decide you can live a simpler life than planned and thus do so in a more expensive location?

Based on my limited experience there I had imagined saving Switzerland for late-retirement travel or living abroad if the portfolio does well, and instead traveling to or living abroad in Thailand or Ecuador or somewhere less expensive in the early years.
 
My wife and I visited Lugano for an afternoon during our honeymoon while staying in nearby Como. Thought Lugano was very nice but I will say Como took the cake for me. I also remember our lunch out being as expensive as a nice dinner in Brunate was.

Question to OP - Are you are an expat and did your earning and saving in US and retired to Switzerland, or did you do some earning years there as well? When you moved, did you have more saved than you planned and thus decided you could handle the exchange rate hit effectively increasing withdrawal rates by 30% or whatever the number is? Or did you decide you can live a simpler life than planned and thus do so in a more expensive location?

Based on my limited experience there I had imagined saving Switzerland for late-retirement travel or living abroad if the portfolio does well, and instead traveling to or living abroad in Thailand or Ecuador or somewhere less expensive in the early years.

Como has a rich and very long history and is beautiful/well preserved, yes. A nice perk of living in Lugano is that it is a short train ride away. Sometimes my wife and I just go for lunch and a bit of shopping there. Some local folks go to Italy for haircuts or eyeglasses or even dentists. We try to spend locally as much as is feasible, but do take advantage of our proximity to the EU for some purchases.

We came to Switzerland in 2009 when I took a j*b here. My wife and I always hoped to retire somewhere in Europe, most likely Italy, so we saw moving here as a good transition strategy.We had been on the LBYM and ER path in the US since 1992, and had saved a lot of our income by the time we arrived here. I was rather aggressive in buying stocks during the 2008-09 downturn, and that helped our nest egg a lot.

So did the 6 years of a Swiss salary, which is tuned to the higher cost of living in Switzerland. For example, where I worked an admin assistant made upwards of 70,000 Swiss francs (right now about equal to same amount in dollars). The consensus here is you need about 120K Swiss francs annually, before taxes, to have a comfortable life in Switzerland. You can get by with less; but it means scrimping a fair amount.

We certainly do not live an extravagant life here; we eat out less than when we lived in the States and generally only for lunch, buy clothing at the twice yearly sales, shop for some things in nearby Italy, and have chosen not to own an automobile. Lucky for us, that is easily done, given the excellent train, bus, and rental car & bike networks. We live on Lake Lugano, so we pay more for our rented flat; however, by not owning we leave the option to move to cheaper housing further from the lake if necessary in the future.

Retiring here is not an easy option if you are not a citizen of an EU country. Switzerland, which by the way voted not to join the EU when it was formed, has agreements with the EU about free movement of EU & Swiss citizens among the countries, in return for access to the EU markets.

Unfortunately, the US, which used to have a preferred status, no longer does. This means that to retire here is nearly impossible unless you, as I did, worked here and gained permanent residency first. This requires a minimum of 5-10 years on a work permit, proof of language proficiency (Italian in my case) and evidence that you have integrated successfully. An exception is made if you are mega rich; then the rules are very different, like everywhere else I suppose. But that is for the tiniest strata of rich foreigners. Even working here is now pretty hard for non-EU citizens. Employers have to prove that no Swiss worker could be found to fill the role.

A better option for you might be to retire to northern Italy, Como for example. Then you could travel into the Swiss alps easily but without the higher day-to-day living costs. Of course, you have all of Italy at your doorstep as well. Also, Italy allows Americans to retire there with fewer barriers.

On the down side, Italy isn't as efficient and well organized as Switzerland, so there is the frustration cost. That said, we have considered moving across the border if/when finances might make living here impossible. That could happen if the dollar were to substantially fall against the franc for a long period. For now, income from our investments, which are mostly in the US, have kept pace with inflation here (which is negligible) and have been able to offset the Dollar/Franc disadvantage.

We stay because we now have a large group of friends here, really enjoy our community, and love the Swiss lifestyle, which tends to focus on family/friends and simpler pleasures. We can afford to live here with careful budgeting; so far, at least. As is said in Italian, "speriamo" (let's hope)!

-BB
 
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Como has a rich and very long history and is beautiful/well preserved, yes. A nice perk of living in Lugano is that it is a short train ride away. Sometimes my wife and I just go for lunch and a bit of shopping there. Some local folks go to Italy for haircuts or eyeglasses or even dentists. We try to spend locally as much as is feasible, but do take advantage of our proximity to the EU for some purchases.

We came to Switzerland in 2009 when I took a j*b here. My wife and I always hoped to retire somewhere in Europe, most likely Italy, so we saw moving here as a good transition strategy.We had been on the LBYM and ER path in the US since 1992, and had saved a lot of our income by the time we arrived here. I was rather aggressive in buying stocks during the 2008-09 downturn, and that helped our nest egg a lot.

So did the 6 years of a Swiss salary, which is tuned to the higher cost of living in Switzerland. For example, where I worked an admin assistant made upwards of 70,000 Swiss francs (right now about equal to same amount in dollars). The consensus here is you need about 120K Swiss francs annually, before taxes, to have a comfortable life in Switzerland. You can get by with less; but it means scrimping a fair amount

-BB

Out of curiosity, were you able to open and maintain a Swiss bank account? The reason I ask is that my wife and I had a joint savings account for over 20 years at BCV, which we declared when we filed our US tax returns. However, back in 2013 we received a letter from the bank stating that due to the new regulations imposed by US Treasury, BCV was no longer holding accounts for US citizens and we had 3 months to transfer our funds out. My wife even had to close an account she had since age 4.
 
Out of curiosity, were you able to open and maintain a Swiss bank account? The reason I ask is that my wife and I had a joint savings account for over 20 years at BCV, which we declared when we filed our US tax returns. However, back in 2013 we received a letter from the bank stating that due to the new regulations imposed by US Treasury, BCV was no longer holding accounts for US citizens and we had 3 months to transfer our funds out. My wife even had to close an account she had since age 4.

Freedom56,

When we arrived we set up an account with a local Swiss bank. One month later, as the US pushed the FATCA agenda, the bank called me and asked that we come in to close the account. They were very apologetic; but said that a few hundred accounts held by US persons were not worth the time, trouble, and great expense (modifying their IT systems) to provide the detailed reporting that the US IRS was imposing. You couldn't blame the Swiss banks. The US told Switzerland, quite bluntly, that they would create all kinds of trade and financial transaction problems for the country if they tried to shield their banks from the FATCA law. This was done in other countries as well.

So, we then moved our banking to Post-Finance, the banking arm of the giant Swiss post office (which is also the main bill paying vehicle in Switzerland) and bus network company (the yellow buses with the post horn logo). By Swiss law they have to accept all account seekers. We get full banking services: cash flow account, savings account, Visa credit card, free ATM access, online banking, etc. They, of course, have to report to the US; but we're okay with it as we have nothing to hide. Also, now, UBS has set up a "walled" banking facility for US persons. So there are options.

-BB
 
Freedom56,

When we arrived we set up an account with a local Swiss bank. One month later, as the US pushed the FATCA agenda, the bank called me and asked that we come in to close the account. They were very apologetic; but said that a few hundred accounts held by US persons were not worth the time, trouble, and great expense (modifying their IT systems) to provide the detailed reporting that the US IRS was imposing. You couldn't blame the Swiss banks. The US told Switzerland, quite bluntly, that they would create all kinds of trade and financial transaction problems for the country if they tried to shield their banks from the FATCA law. This was done in other countries as well.

So, we then moved our banking to Post-Finance, the banking arm of the giant Swiss post office (which is also the main bill paying vehicle in Switzerland) and bus network company (the yellow buses with the post horn logo). By Swiss law they have to accept all account seekers. We get full banking services: cash flow account, savings account, Visa credit card, free ATM access, online banking, etc. They, of course, have to report to the US; but we're okay with it as we have nothing to hide. Also, now, UBS has set up a "walled" banking facility for US persons. So there are options.

-BB


UBS wants $1M minimum in the account for this service for which they pay very little interest. All my in-laws use Post-Finance to pay their bills. For us that was not an option since we were not residing there other than our annual 2 month visit. We set up a usufructuary agreement with my Father-in-law for our home. He receives all revenues and covers all expenses for our property. Hopefully things will change in the future. Thanks for the info.
 
UBS wants $1M minimum in the account for this service for which they pay very little interest. All my in-laws use Post-Finance to pay their bills. For us that was not an option since we were not residing there other than our annual 2 month visit. We set up a usufructuary agreement with my Father-in-law for our home. He receives all revenues and covers all expenses for our property. Hopefully things will change in the future. Thanks for the info.

$1M ?! Wow. That's insane.

-BB
 
Wengen

Jim,
I found a picture of your hotel in my photo files. I
see why you liked it
 

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If I could live my life over I would have purchased a condo in Switzerland. I have been going there for the last 20 years mainly to the mountain village of Wengen that over looks the Lauterbrunnen Valley. The country is drop dead gorgeous. We like to hike/walk. There are yellow signs everywhere pointing to paths and how long it takes to get to the next destination. They allow you to walk thru farms without feeling like you are intruding on someone's private property. Can't do that in America. I agree with others, lunch is usually good but dinners are extremely pricey.

r9hkbn.jpg


2mr86it.jpg

Lauterbrunnen - valley of 72 waterfalls - one of the most gorgeous places on earth....love it there. Also pretty decent skiing there and mountain biking as well as the hiking.
 
.....
Also, Italy allows Americans to retire there with fewer barriers.

On the down side, Italy isn't as efficient and well organized as Switzerland, so there is the frustration cost......
That is quite an understatement - I had a he!! of a time getting a student visa here in the USA through the Italian embassy (last minute for everything!!!) and then after that had to jump through many hoops (didn't finish them all as I came back to US after two months due to some personal issues) to be able to stay in Italy....and efficient is not associated with Italian. Interestingly, I saw the Italians be quite ornery and adamant in demanding that residents meet all of the 'resident' visa criteria. There was no budging against them and the response could be quite emotional on their part regardless of the difficulties. Also, everything had to be done through the Post Banking service which was not online - it was go to the post office and stand in line during hours they were open, which was not super convenient if you worked or went to school. However, as all Italians deal with those bureaucratic hurdles, there was not much penalty to missing work or school.
 
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