Assessing the Carnage

^^^Thanks, for the assessment. The only extraction of funds annually are the RMD. In early Aug. That is way more than enough over SS and a small pension. My big expenses for the year are Real estate taxes. House and camp have been paid off over ten years ago.
 
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So why did you switch to a more complex, active plan? (Sincere question.)

A while ago I read a book called "The Fourth Turning", written by some historians. This book analyzed cycles that occur. It is too much to try to explain here, but the short version is that we are in the middle of the cycle that is characterized by chaos and a reset of the status quo. A simplified explanation might be generational shifting or major geopolitical changes. The previous cycle of this type was around WW2 and led to the setting up of the USA as the dominant world power and currency.

As the pandemic was starting, I learned about the exponential growth curve and how things go very slowly then hit the hockey stick curve and go up very rapidly. I think that this applies to certain technologies as well as to virus replication. There has been a lot of discussion on these forums revolving around bashing Ark and Cathie Wood.

The governments all around the world began to issue currency in response to the pandemic slowdown all around the world. I became concerned about the effect of such a huge expansion of the currency supply. This is another huge discussion all by itself: inflation, debt spiral, government ability to service huge debts.

Previously I had felt that assets like the stock market were irrationally overvalued and in bubble mode. Applying an analysis of the increase in currency supply led me to believe that the asset prices were not actually rising, but the unit that they were measured in (USD) was declining. When you combine this idea with the idea that certain companies are developing technologies that will follow an exponential growth curve, they may not seem as overvalued as people think.

I decided that my "good enough to get by" investment performance was not going to cut it if we end up in a chaotic environment where currency purchasing power was rapidly declining.

One approach might be to simply increase my equity allocation with index funds. However, it seemed that in indexes like the SP500 most of the companies were doing poorly and the index was only holding up because it was overweight massively profitable companies. Also, many of the companies that might eventually become important were not in the indexes.

In the meantime I was watching some videos expounding the idea that you could invest in fewer companies as long as you really understood and monitored those investments. Even Warren Buffet has said stuff along these lines. I also became aware of the possibility of using options. Not necessarily to become a highly leveraged maniac, but to generate some extra income by selling calls and maybe using options to hedge near market tops.

So, all of this, gave the the notion to begin to pay more attention to what I am doing with the investments and to begin to dip my toe into beginner options trading and to pick a few high conviction companies and see how things go with that.

I am not planning to be an active in and out trader. At this point I am in the process of buying stocks to establish new positions to bring me up to a higher equity allocation percentage. However, once I have these positions in the high-conviction companies and have increased my already existing position size in total market indexes I plan to be a buy and hold investor, even with the individual stocks. However, I may take a percentage of my shares in the single companies an try to swing trade or hedge at tops.

And lastly, along the idea of the Fourth Turning cycle destroying the existing and resetting into the system for then next few cycles, I started to investigate the potential for things like crypto assets and decentralized finance to cause changes to the way things work.

Well, I hope you really meant you were asking a sincere question. You certainly got a sincere answer.
 
^^^Thanks, for the assessment. The only extraction of funds annually are the RMD. In early Aug. That is way more than enough over SS and a small pension. My big expenses for the year are Real estate taxes. House and camp have been paid off over ten years ago.

Did you mean to say that the only extraction of funds annually are the taxes you paid on the RMD?
 
Did you mean to say that the only extraction of funds annually are the taxes you paid on the RMD?

I get RMD transferred into money market account. Ok, add the RMD taxes to the real estate taxes as major yearly expenses. Still have way too much left over. I do live way below modest means. I usually owe the feds some $$ at tax time. It is intentional, don't like to give feds interest free loans during the year. Have yet to pay PA income taxes. Always fall below the "forgiveness amount".
 
If I did not sell, and have no need to in the foreseeable future, does it matter that the market is down? My stuff has been on set and forget for the at least ten years. Did pull some profits late last year to buy a car for cash, and consider having gotten the car for free, otherwise letting it ride. At this rate my nieces will be filthy rich when I kisck the bucket.

I tend to think like that.

One buys some assets that are more or less permanent and just sit there for a very long time, sort of like ballast in the boat.

The plan would work great for passing along generational wealth, except for the problem that I have no children. Like you, I may have one very happy niece and a couple happy friends with I kick the bucket.
 
Your comment got me wondering so I tried to crunch the numbers.

I took VTI and BND and computed the price in August 2016 and today and added in the dividends (roughly), then computed the percentage gain of each during that period with dividends.

I came up with roughly 44% for VTI and 4.2% for BND.

I came up with roughly 44% for VTI and 4.2% for BND.

I took my starting number and divided it 60% and 40% then multiplied the 60% number by 1.44 and the 40% number by 1.042.
....

I don't want to publicly post my personal financial numbers, but here are the numbers I used for VTI and BND in case someone wants to correct me.

VTI

8/2016 $150.62
today $201

rough estimate average dividend $0.70 / quarter or $16.00 dividends

today with dividends $217

144.07% 8/2016 to now
....

I don't think you did that right. For one thing, you aren't accounting for reinvesting dividends, which is part of a total return over time.

Go to portfolio analyzer (though EOM April is latest data there, they are month to month so May drop not included), similar #'s at yahoo fiance:

https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/VTI...istory&frequency=1d&includeAdjustedClose=true

Aug 01, 2016 111.40 111.67 111.00 111.27 100.56

VTI was ~ $111 per share AUG2016, where do you get $150.62?

So VTI is up more like 100%, a 60/40 is up 59%.

https://tinyurl.com/y4cyk8hx <<<< portfolio analyzer short link

Based on that I seem to show that a 60/40 split of VTI/BND resulted in a current total that is 12% higher than what I have now.

So you figured a 28% gain for a 60/40 benchmark, but my sources say it was more like 59% (April 29).That puts you an additional 31% points behind, doesn't it?

-ERD50
 
You are correct. I made a mistake on VTI price 8/8/2016.

I was using TradingView set to weekly and just moving the cross hair lines long the graph. I think I was rushing and got 2019 mixed up with 2016 when I was dragging the page to the left.

So according to my simple calculations, VTI is up 78%, without accounting for dividends or 94% with my rough calculations for dividends that did not include reinvesting.

Do most people here have VTI as a mutual fund so the dividends are automatically reinvested? I am buying VTI as and ETF and I just have dividends go into my my cash position.

I agree with what you are saying. That puts things more in line with what I was thinking going along about being behind by quite a bit.

In retrospect I really underestimated how long and far the market could go up without a severe correction.

Lucky I was a hard worker and good saver. If I had to depend on my investment skill I would never have been able to reach FIRE.

Thanks for taking the time to check my work.

I am learning from this and will try to apply more rigor to my analysis going forward.
 
However, while I know you should evaluate the percentage of loss, I still take a look at the total dollars lost and think of how many hours of w*rk that took to earn them.

How many hours? I don’t want to look as I get depressed realizing how many YEARS of earnings have been lost. Lol.
 
....
Do most people here have VTI as a mutual fund so the dividends are automatically reinvested? I am buying VTI as and ETF and I just have dividends go into my my cash position.
...

Well, if you are comparing performance, it makes sense to have them all reinvested, since different investments will kick off difference amounts, it isn't really apples-apples if you don't re-invest them. The one with lower divs retains them, and will see more growth (all else being equal, which it never really is, and assuming there is growth).

If you are in the draw-down phase, you can use that portfolio analyzer site. You can set a withdraw amount, adjust for inflation, and then you are similar to what FIRECalc/Trinity do.

In that case, divs will be spent, and any excess re-invested. Makes a good apples-apples for the draw-down phase.

-ERD50
 
Just want to say thanks to everyone who has been helping to poke holes in my analysis and to help me to view things realisticly.

I am 65, so I hopefully have a few years left to run the portfolio and your comments have helped me to realize that I should give some serious consideration to sticking with best practices that are based on accurate numbers and previously successful plans.

Not saying that I am abandoning the reasoning I outlined in the earlier post, but I will try to blend things together.
 
Joe,

Just for a reference point, I retired about 5 months before you with a vanilla 60/40 (+/-, I don't rebalance often) portfolio.

We are currently up about 34% from the starting point, after spending about 20% of the original number.

Yeah, we are down about 13% from our high, but no need to panic.

Slow. Steady. Deep breath. Don't panic.
 
Y'all made me look. I use Quicken to track all investable assets and expenses, so it is quite easy to look up the following numbers.

My earned income stopped coming in on May 2012, which was exactly 10 years ago.

For $1 in my total investable assets, retirement as well as after-tax accounts, I have spent $0.304 since retiring.

Yet, I now have $2.05, after market close today, a factor of 2.05X.

The S&P was 1400 in May 2012 and is 4024 today, a factor of 2.87x.

I trail the S&P because of my spending, plus I have never been 100% invested. My WR in early years was also high.

Of the $0.304 that I spent in 10 years of retirement, $0.214 was for the first 5 years, and $0.090 was for the last 5 years. Reason: kids out of college, flew the coop, and we ran out of things we wanted to spend money on.

The early WR impacted the growth of the portfolio more than the recent withdrawal; the withdrawn money would have grown 2x-3x. However, a guy has to spend what he needs to. That's what the money is for.


PS. I made an error earlier in computing the expense ratio. This has been corrected.

I also noticed that my average WR for the first 5 years was 0.214/5 = 4.3%. Not too shabby.

And the last 5 years, the average WR was 0.09/5 = 1.8%. My trailing 12-month WR is actually under 1%.


PPS. Dang, I noticed some errors again. I computed the WR by referencing it to the original stash. But if referenced to the current value, my trailing 12-month WR is 0.5%.
 
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Do most people here have VTI as a mutual fund so the dividends are automatically reinvested? I am buying VTI as and ETF and I just have dividends go into my my cash position.

VTI is an ETF and is always an ETF.

Even so, it is possible to have any VTI dividends reinvested, at least Fidelity did that for me in my HSA on 3/28/22.

I think VTSAX is the mutual fund equivalent. There is a way to convert tax free one way (VTSAX -> VTI I think), but not back again.
 
I don't keep close track of spending, income/expenses. I do work but spend plenty of money, I'd guess that I spend all of my meager college professor pay plus mega corp pension.

Comparing gross net worth amounts across all categories (except intangibles like value of vehicles, home, a piece of land I own) - I am down about 4.5% since 4/30/21.

Now, if I picked 12/31/21 things wouldn't look nearly as good.
 
It's interesting how we all keep track of things slightly different. I follow an instant liquidation value for net worth. Our high was around Jan 1 2022. Down about 5.71%. But still higher than jan 1 of any preceding year.

Some of this is owned fixed income which had appreciated greatly and the further out dates are going to be roth converted so since it pays the same is sort of a win. If we lived in a high dwelling appreciation area instead of a moderate area it might have mitigated some of that.

I'm still buying dividend paying stuff with extra generated cash although I understand risks if dividends are cut due to operating expense stress on companies. No new earned income so houston we have launch..
 
It's interesting how we all keep track of things slightly different. I follow an instant liquidation value for net worth...

I though that's the only way to value your assets. What somebody is willing to pay for it now on the open market, and not some wishy washy high values in the future?
 
I'm sick of measuring the losses. I may switch to using expected future value instead of current value.

If I apply the promised 40% CAGR to my ARK-like stocks, I should be sitting pretty in five years. :)
 
I like to look at the bright side. In my view, real estate prices are going to come down. A lot as weak hands fold. I have uninvested cash to pick up some bargains when that happens. Plus I am setting aside the net rents in cash and short term cash instruments for the same purpose.
 
I've heard the stock market has taken a tumble but I haven't been watching it nor have I been looking at my investments. I'm sticking with my asset allocation and letting my diversified funds ride the waves just as I did during and after the 2008 financial crisis.

I use Vanguard PAS, primarily so my wife will have an advisor if I precede her to the grave. She insists she has no interest in learning about managing our investments and wanted someone in place. The advisor called last week to talk about the market conditions. I told him I'm sticking with the plan and he should spend the time giving the pep talk to another client.

I'm confident I can handle a 60% drop in equities so I'm sleeping soundly.
 
Apparently I didnt.

My plan was to get started and build the position after the dip, but I guess I fell victim to fear of missing out.

That is the problem with market timing. When the stock drops 15%, it can come half way back in two good days... and you miss out. Those small dips have been fairly common and happen almost annually.

I think you are still in a good spot for the long run... there is upside to the items that you are buying. Maybe not the Kathy Woods etfs.... seems the big guys are out to get her, lol.
 
I'm confident I can handle a 60% drop in equities so I'm sleeping soundly.


The last two market big downturns, the S&P was down more than 50%. I think I can handle another repeat, especially that I now have more money yet fewer years to live. And I can claim SS whenever I want to.

But I don't sleep soundly anymore no matter what the market does. Something to do with old age perhaps.
 
The last two market big downturns, the S&P was down more than 50%. I think I can handle another repeat, especially that I now have more money yet fewer years to live. And I can claim SS whenever I want to.

But I don't sleep soundly anymore no matter what the market does. Something to do with old age perhaps.

I average 6 hours of sleep every night (monitoring it for 3 years now). This is the same no matter what the market does. :D
 
End of June (well early July), my Vanguard statements will eventually find me on the mainland. Then I'll know the extent of the carnage. I've been through this before and I expect, should I live so long, I'll go through it again. Since my equities allocation is only about 35% it's not too painful. What IS painful is knowing my cash-like investments (though still going up, just like clock-work) are worth less everyday due to inflation. By the way, the only single stock I own is old Megacorp - and it's up. Go figure. YMMV
 
I'm down 23% and it is super disappointing. I am putting as much money into the market as I can, but its a balancing act as we are still in the accumulation phase.

I am, have been, and will always be at 100% equities so I need to be used to the dips, and buy them as often as I can.
 
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