Asset Location Investing Based on Type of Account

G-Man

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Can someone provide a cheat sheet of the type of investments that should be held in the various types of accounts below to achieve the maximum tax efficiency:

1. Tax-Deferred Account - Traditional 401k or T-IRA
2. Tax-Free Account - Roth IRA
3. Tax-Free Account - HSA
4. Taxable Account - Brokerage Account
5. Taxable Account - Fidelity Cash Management Account

Thanks,
 
Can someone provide a cheat sheet of the type of investments that should be held in the various types of accounts below to achieve the maximum tax efficiency:

1. Tax-Deferred Account - Traditional 401k or T-IRA
2. Tax-Free Account - Roth IRA
3. Tax-Free Account - HSA
4. Taxable Account - Brokerage Account
5. Taxable Account - Fidelity Cash Management Account

Thanks,

1. Lower return investments like bonds
2. Higher return investments like equities
3. Ditto
4. Equities, both domestic (tax preferenced qualified dividends and LTCG) and international (partially tax preferenced qualified dividends and LTCG and foreign tax credit that is wasted in tax-deferred and tax-free accounts) and tax-free municipal bonds if you are in a high tax bracket
5. Dunno

Also see https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Tax-efficient_fund_placement
 
I just minimize the cash in #5 and push it to 4 for higher savings rate. Transfer back and forth as needed.
 
4 and 5 would be the same, since they are both just Taxable Brokerage accounts.
 
1. Lower return investments like bonds
2. Higher return investments like equities
3. Ditto
4. Equities, both domestic (tax preferenced qualified dividends and LTCG) and international (partially tax preferenced qualified dividends and LTCG and foreign tax credit that is wasted in tax-deferred and tax-free accounts) and tax-free municipal bonds if you are in a high tax bracket
5. Dunno

Also see https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Tax-efficient_fund_placement

While I agree with this in general (for tax purposes), it depends on how much you have in each and what your overall desired asset allocation is.

For example, if 95% of your money is in your 401K, you wouldn't want to only put "lower return investments like bonds".

Likewise, if the vast majority of your money is in a taxable brokerage account, you might not want to invest it all in equities - even though you could possibly save tax money.

You have to look at the overall picture. Personally, I don't have a problem with just using a target date index fund in all spaces. Might not be optimal from a tax perspective, but it's simple.
 
Here are two cheat sheets for tax efficiency.
 

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While I agree with this in general (for tax purposes), it depends on how much you have in each and what your overall desired asset allocation is.

For example, if 95% of your money is in your 401K, you wouldn't want to only put "lower return investments like bonds".

Likewise, if the vast majority of your money is in a taxable brokerage account, you might not want to invest it all in equities - even though you could possibly save tax money.

You have to look at the overall picture. Personally, I don't have a problem with just using a target date index fund in all spaces. Might not be optimal from a tax perspective, but it's simple.

I agree. I presumed that someone with a 60/40 AA tget with 95% in a 401k would not be so foolish to put 100% of their 401k or 95% of their total ino bonds just because that is where the money happens to be. In that case the 40% of bonds would be all in the 401kwith the remainder of the 401k in equities.
 
I agree. I presumed that someone with a 60/40 AA tget with 95% in a 401k would not be so foolish to put 100% of their 401k or 95% of their total ino bonds just because that is where the money happens to be. In that case the 40% of bonds would be all in the 401kwith the remainder of the 401k in equities.

I probably need to completely redo my asset allocation across types (taxable, Roth, TIRA). DW got an inheritance which is now 90% of our taxable income and we have it all in VMFXX - LOL!
 
Can someone provide a cheat sheet of the type of investments that should be held in the various types of accounts below to achieve the maximum tax efficiency:

1. Tax-Deferred Account - Traditional 401k or T-IRA
2. Tax-Free Account - Roth IRA
3. Tax-Free Account - HSA
4. Taxable Account - Brokerage Account
5. Taxable Account - Fidelity Cash Management Account

Thanks,

Here are two cheat sheets for tax efficiency.
Here is the cheat sheet you are looking for. Use the tax-efficiency tables if you need more granular definition.

Source: See how tax-smart asset location can potentially help improve after-tax returns. https://www.fidelity.com/viewpoints/investing-ideas/asset-location-lower-taxes
 

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Is the index fund a mutual fund or ETF?
Depending on what index fund you have in mind, it might be a mutual fund and/or ETF.

In general, an ETF may be a better choice, since they trade for free at major institutions (Fidelity, for example). Some mutual funds trade for free, depending on the institution you invest with. But a Vanguard fund, for example, may cost you a trading fee at Fidelity.
 
I remember reading about “tax efficient” fund placement, reallocating my portfolio accordingly, bragging to my wife about how much money we were going to make and sharing here how great it was. Then a wiser poster told me that I had really just made an asset allocation shift. I disagreed at the time, but now realize that poster had a point.

The analysis is complex and most models don’t allow the “tax efficient” fund placement, so it’s hard to get your hands around it. Both Pralana Gold and the Bogleheads Retiree Portfolio Model have the feature. Pralana Gold also has the ability to do historical backtests and Monte Carlo analysis, so I used it to dig in.

Using methods where I set a constant return each year, the "tax efficient" method did lead to a greater level of wealth. That makes sense as it reduced tax drag in taxable and the government stakes a claim to a portion of the tax deferred account, so holding lots of bonds there means forcing the government to grab a larger share of bonds rather than stocks. But turning that around means that leaves me more stock heavy than I had actually intended.

So there must exist a higher stock allocation, held equally in all accounts, that could have achieved that same extra wealth as the "tax efficient" method. I played around until I found what that equivalent allocation was. Turns out, the required allocation change was quite large. My 80/20 “tax efficient” allocation gave the same result as an 87/13 equal allocation portfolio (the difference would vary depending on the relative and absolute size of your accounts, your tax bracket, etc.)

Now if an 80/20 “tax efficient” portfolio behaves like an 80/20 “equal allocation” portfolio in a bear market and an 87/13 in an average market, that would be a free lunch! But if it behaves like 87/13 in bull and bear markets, then “tax efficient” fund placement would really just be a riskier portfolio.

I looked at Monte Carlo results and those looked super close between 87/13 equal allocation and 80/20 tax efficient. Then I backtested a few historical bull and bear markets and found the same. The biggest factor in whatever differences arose seemed to be timing of when bull or bear markets happened, because the "tax efficient" portfolio skews the asset allocation differently at different times - bonds build up in tax deferred prior to retirement and eventually get sold and/or moved to other accounts, as Roth Conversions and especially as RMDs occur and the portfolio is rebalanced.

So for me, it looks like “tax efficient” is just a much riskier portfolio, not a free lunch. It also means I never really know my exact equivalent asset allocation, nor control my risk, but both would always be higher than I thought.

Note that individual situations vary so much and the tax code is so complex that maybe it gives benefits over and above the risk increase for others, but I believe there is a real risk increase, so I would be cautious.
 
I remember reading about “tax efficient” fund placement, reallocating my portfolio accordingly, bragging to my wife about how much money we were going to make and sharing here how great it was. Then a wiser poster told me that I had really just made an asset allocation shift. I disagreed at the time, but now realize that poster had a point.

The analysis is complex and most models don’t allow the “tax efficient” fund placement, so it’s hard to get your hands around it. Both Pralana Gold and the Bogleheads Retiree Portfolio Model have the feature. Pralana Gold also has the ability to do historical backtests and Monte Carlo analysis, so I used it to dig in.

Using methods where I set a constant return each year, the "tax efficient" method did lead to a greater level of wealth. That makes sense as it reduced tax drag in taxable and the government stakes a claim to a portion of the tax deferred account, so holding lots of bonds there means forcing the government to grab a larger share of bonds rather than stocks. But turning that around means that leaves me more stock heavy than I had actually intended.

So there must exist a higher stock allocation, held equally in all accounts, that could have achieved that same extra wealth as the "tax efficient" method. I played around until I found what that equivalent allocation was. Turns out, the required allocation change was quite large. My 80/20 “tax efficient” allocation gave the same result as an 87/13 equal allocation portfolio (the difference would vary depending on the relative and absolute size of your accounts, your tax bracket, etc.)

Now if an 80/20 “tax efficient” portfolio behaves like an 80/20 “equal allocation” portfolio in a bear market and an 87/13 in an average market, that would be a free lunch! But if it behaves like 87/13 in bull and bear markets, then “tax efficient” fund placement would really just be a riskier portfolio.

I looked at Monte Carlo results and those looked super close between 87/13 equal allocation and 80/20 tax efficient. Then I backtested a few historical bull and bear markets and found the same. The biggest factor in whatever differences arose seemed to be timing of when bull or bear markets happened, because the "tax efficient" portfolio skews the asset allocation differently at different times - bonds build up in tax deferred prior to retirement and eventually get sold and/or moved to other accounts, as Roth Conversions and especially as RMDs occur and the portfolio is rebalanced.

So for me, it looks like “tax efficient” is just a much riskier portfolio, not a free lunch. It also means I never really know my exact equivalent asset allocation, nor control my risk, but both would always be higher than I thought.

Note that individual situations vary so much and the tax code is so complex that maybe it gives benefits over and above the risk increase for others, but I believe there is a real risk increase, so I would be cautious.

Nicely stated, and I agree with your caution.

However, I have always taken a (more naive?) approach of just discounting my deferred assets by an appropriate tax rate, and calculating a tax-adjusted AA (and total wealth). My spreadsheet does this automagically now. But it seems you are aiming at something more complicated?

Some links for consideration of others:
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Tax-adjusted_asset_allocation
https://obliviousinvestor.com/tax-adjusted-asset-allocation/
 
I remember reading about “tax efficient” fund placement, reallocating my portfolio accordingly, bragging to my wife about how much money we were going to make and sharing here how great it was. Then a wiser poster told me that I had really just made an asset allocation shift. I disagreed at the time, but now realize that poster had a point.

The analysis is complex and most models don’t allow the “tax efficient” fund placement, so it’s hard to get your hands around it. Both Pralana Gold and the Bogleheads Retiree Portfolio Model have the feature. Pralana Gold also has the ability to do historical backtests and Monte Carlo analysis, so I used it to dig in.

Using methods where I set a constant return each year, the "tax efficient" method did lead to a greater level of wealth. That makes sense as it reduced tax drag in taxable and the government stakes a claim to a portion of the tax deferred account, so holding lots of bonds there means forcing the government to grab a larger share of bonds rather than stocks. But turning that around means that leaves me more stock heavy than I had actually intended.

So there must exist a higher stock allocation, held equally in all accounts, that could have achieved that same extra wealth as the "tax efficient" method. I played around until I found what that equivalent allocation was. Turns out, the required allocation change was quite large. My 80/20 “tax efficient” allocation gave the same result as an 87/13 equal allocation portfolio (the difference would vary depending on the relative and absolute size of your accounts, your tax bracket, etc.)

Now if an 80/20 “tax efficient” portfolio behaves like an 80/20 “equal allocation” portfolio in a bear market and an 87/13 in an average market, that would be a free lunch! But if it behaves like 87/13 in bull and bear markets, then “tax efficient” fund placement would really just be a riskier portfolio.

I looked at Monte Carlo results and those looked super close between 87/13 equal allocation and 80/20 tax efficient. Then I backtested a few historical bull and bear markets and found the same. The biggest factor in whatever differences arose seemed to be timing of when bull or bear markets happened, because the "tax efficient" portfolio skews the asset allocation differently at different times - bonds build up in tax deferred prior to retirement and eventually get sold and/or moved to other accounts, as Roth Conversions and especially as RMDs occur and the portfolio is rebalanced.

So for me, it looks like “tax efficient” is just a much riskier portfolio, not a free lunch. It also means I never really know my exact equivalent asset allocation, nor control my risk, but both would always be higher than I thought.

Note that individual situations vary so much and the tax code is so complex that maybe it gives benefits over and above the risk increase for others, but I believe there is a real risk increase, so I would be cautious.

Great Post!

It's impossible to accurately forecast all of the various scenarios based on asset allocation, asset location and future tax codes. I try, but it's probably a huge waste of time.

I buy Turbotax the day it becomes available and I'd guess by the time the following year is available, I've done 30 "what ifs" for current and future years. Always trying to hit my tax goal to the nearest $100. Always trying to figure out what year 2028, or 2031, etc taxes will look like. While it's good to have a general idea, I'm probably trying to get too "cute" with my assumptions for most likely zero increased accuracy.

In the end, what does it really matter if my kids inherit $2,637,598 or $2,685,429 (made up numbers)?

Having said that, I've got a couple of spreadsheets to update....
 
Great Post!

It's impossible to accurately forecast all of the various scenarios based on asset allocation, asset location and future tax codes. I try, but it's probably a huge waste of time.

I buy Turbotax the day it becomes available and I'd guess by the time the following year is available, I've done 30 "what ifs" for current and future years. Always trying to hit my tax goal to the nearest $100. Always trying to figure out what year 2028, or 2031, etc taxes will look like. While it's good to have a general idea, I'm probably trying to get too "cute" with my assumptions for most likely zero increased accuracy.

In the end, what does it really matter if my kids inherit $2,637,598 or $2,685,429 (made up numbers)?

Having said that, I've got a couple of spreadsheets to update....
I keep a simple google sheet I call Ten-Year Plan. I also get into the TurboTax WhatIf thing.

We've moved beyond the over-riding importance of these analyses to the Zen of Retirement. Don't get me wrong, I still monitor the most important facts and love a colorful chart.

Just looked around and found this interesting title:

Zen and The Art of Retirement: Nothing happens next. This is it. https://www.amazon.com/zen-art-retirement-Nothing-happens/dp/1986206947

To each his /her own?
:flowers:
 
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