Automakers to invest $300B in electric vehicles

[aja8888]

Mine was 49k - 10,450 rebate/credit = 38,550.

That's the best deal on a Model 3 I have heard about. Friend's son just got one (M3) and he paid north of $50K. I'l see it soon as he will be bringing it from Ft. Worth this weekend to Houston.

 

[Music Lover]

Because the gasoline powered car cost $25K (as an example) and the EV (Tesla) cost $60 - $100K. You'd have to drive a heap (or many heaps) of miles to make up the difference using fuel cost differential.

I know, you took me out of context. I said in my comment that you didn't quote that EV is not ready for prime time due to the price premium and charging time. I was responding to someone who suggested that people don't like change and that's why they won't buy EV.

 

[Texas Proud]

I know, you took me out of context. I said in my comment that you didn't quote that EV is not ready for prime time due to the price premium and charging time. I was responding to someone who suggested that people don't like change and that's why they won't buy EV.

I am one that is not resistant to change... I am just resistant to what I consider a stupid change...



If an EV cost less or the same than an ICE and was able to be charged in 10 minutes I would be buying one for my next vehicle... and I would only need that 10 minute charge for long trips... I can live with a bit longer charge if driving around town....



I do not see that happening soon...


BTW, my next vehicle has to replace the Pilot that tows the boat... I have not seen an EV that can tow a boat yet...

 

[Totoro]

Towing boats are not suited to EVs indeed. Just like horse ranching, farming too.

EVs are ready for prime time in suburbia and urban areas. I'd say that covers roughly 70%+ of the current world personal car market. Hence the $300B investment.

Not so much rural and road warriors. Also not for megacities with solid public transport, whose inhabitants don't currently own cars anyway. Hard to compete with shoes, bikes and trams there.

It's going to be interesting to watch what happens when gas stations are going to lose 2/3rds of their customer base.

 

[Totoro]

US Navy currently operates over 150 nukes on ships & hasn't lost a life to them with 5700 years of operating time & counting. Scary thought, isn't it?

Those 150 nukes don't need to run a profit, have a very different profile, size and maintenance requirements.

Also, if one of them goes down, it probably only takes the crew with them vs. rendering entire areas unlivable for 30+ years.

Nuclear is a really elegant technology, but that single point of catastrophic failure is a really tricky thing. I know dams also can break, but it's at least tangible and one can start cleanup straight away. Humans and emotion ..

 

[gerntz]

It's going to be interesting to watch what happens when gas stations are going to lose 2/3rds of their customer base.

Yes, but none of us are likely to be here to see.

 

[Music Lover]

It's going to be interesting to watch what happens when gas stations are going to lose 2/3rds of their customer base.

Just like any other business when new technology comes along...some will close, some will change their business model, and a few will remain.

 

[ERD50]

... EVs are ready for prime time in suburbia and urban areas. ....

But there are a lot of apartments in suburbia, and lots of apartments and street parking, and detached garages w/o high power circuits in urban areas. Yes, I know, some will say that overnight charging access for these millions of people is 'easy'. Major infrastructure changes are never easy.

... Hence the $300B investment. ...

It's going to be interesting to watch what happens when gas stations are going to lose 2/3rds of their customer base.

I am curious to put this investment in perspective. Does it include hybrids? How does it compare to current R&D? And does it refer to all the R&D for a new model if it is electric, or only the unique electric components in that car? IOW, if they were going to spend $20 M to develop a new model ICE, and $25 M to develop the hybrid version, is that $5M R&D "in electric vehicles", or $25M R&D?

The OP said "in electric vehicles", not "in electric technology". We've read that Volvo will "electrify" all new models by 2019

"Every new Volvo introduced will be electrified – from mild hybrids t ... to battery electric vehicles that run on electricity alone."

So do we say their entire R&D is "in electric vehicles"? Really not sure how to parse that. Do we have any breakdown, or comparison to current R&D?

... It's going to be interesting to watch what happens when gas stations are going to lose 2/3rds of their customer base. ...

Do you have any time frame for that? When/if it happens, I'm not sure it will even be a problem. With 1/3rd the gas vehicles, we could have 1/3rd the number of stations. Still should not be very inconvenient to find one, as I pass so many stations between the time I hit 1/3 of a tank and when I start to be concerned. I just will pass fewer of them.


The following is satire, and an attempt at humor (figured I better spell that out) ....

I am one that is not resistant to change...

BTW, my next vehicle has to replace the Pilot that tows the boat... I have not seen an EV that can tow a boat yet...

Geez Texas, you contradicted yourself right in the same post! You are resistant to change, you don't want to change from being able to tow your boat! Get with the program, embrace the future!

[end satire/ weak humor]

-ERD50

 

[ncbill]

Ffs...

My take on spending the extra $800 for a hybrid: I paid a larger premium buying a Prius over, say, an ICE-powered Corolla, Sentra, or Elantra, than $800. Of course, about anything would be an improvement over the 15/20mpg performance of the pickup it replaced... I paid extra, partly for the reduction in fuel used and pollution generated, however small that reduction might have been, and partly for the techy/earthy/crunchy factor...

That's my point...the cost of hybridizing the traditional ICE powertrain has come down so much in price ($800 is under 5% extra over MSRP on the AWD RAV4) that choosing it gives the consumer most of the benefit but at a fraction of the price of buying a pure EV.

 

[gerntz]

Travel to other countries and cultures helps to prevent misunderstandings and conflict. War is probably the ultimate ecology destroyer. For example, it's hard for me to get angry at the Turks despite recent political conflicts between our countries ,because I've been there and the Turkish people are wonderful

Those lovely Turks:

"Turkey accusing Enes Kanter of being part of terror group"

Turkey seeking warrant for Enes Kanter of New York Knicks

 

[gerntz]

That's my point...the cost of hybridizing the traditional ICE powertrain has come down so much in price ($800 is under 5% extra over MSRP on the AWD RAV4) that choosing it gives the consumer most of the benefit but at a fraction of the price of buying a pure EV.

Agree. Trouble is they interfere with the financial gains and/or emotional needs of those invested in solar panels, wind farms, and battery plants.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

I am one that is not resistant to change... I am just resistant to what I consider a stupid change...



If an EV cost less or the same than an ICE and was able to be charged in 10 minutes I would be buying one for my next vehicle... and I would only need that 10 minute charge for long trips... I can live with a bit longer charge if driving around town....



I do not see that happening soon...


BTW, my next vehicle has to replace the Pilot that tows the boat... I have not seen an EV that can tow a boat yet...

Google Model X tows Boeing Dreamliner. My X has a 5000# towing capacity.

Somebody above mentioned apartment dwellers and charging. This has been answered several times. I can tell you what occurs in LA. Those that aren't charging at home simply go to a supercharger. I know people that go a few times a week. I was there yesterday for my free electricity. If I lived in a desolate area, I wouldn't be supercharging because they wouldn't be any. They are placed near the highways to travel easier. They weren't intended for apartment dwellers to use as a normal charging solution. But that is what some are doing.

Now if your an apartment dweller with a Leaf or a Bolt, you would have a problem

Although here in LA, plenty of employers have level 2 chargers for employees.

Soon Volkswagen will have their chargers installed all over America, everyone can use these chargers.

So apartment life doesn't hold back an EV for unless you cannot charge at work, live nowhere near a Supercharger (for Tesla) and aren't getting a VW charger put in anywhere near you.

 

[aja8888]

Google Model X tows Boeing Dreamliner. My X has a 5000# towing capacity.

Somebody above mentioned apartment dwellers and charging. This has been answered several times. I can tell you what occurs in LA. Those that aren't charging at home simply go to a supercharger. I know people that go a few times a week. I was there yesterday for my free electricity. If I lived in a desolate area, I wouldn't be supercharging because they wouldn't be any. They are placed near the highways to travel easier. They weren't intended for apartment dwellers to use as a normal charging solution. But that is what some are doing.

Now if your an apartment dweller with a Leaf or a Bolt, you would have a problem

Although here in LA, plenty of employers have level 2 chargers for employees.

Soon Volkswagen will have their chargers installed all over America, everyone can use these chargers.

So apartment life doesn't hold back an EV for unless you cannot charge at work, live nowhere near a Supercharger (for Tesla) and aren't getting a VW charger put in anywhere near you.

There are roughly 3,000 large apartment complexes in the greater Huston area. My DW used to be a District Manager for Fingers Corp and Capstone Realty, both fee managers of those corps that own hundreds of the complexes. Let me assure you that the vast majority of the renters in those 3,000 apartment complexes can't afford a Tesla, or probably even a Bolt. As a matter of fact, many can't even afford cable TV or an Apple cell phone.

These people are not going away nor are they suddenly going to start earning enough to buy a Tesla or a house (which costs about the same in some lower class neighborhoods around Houston).

I can assure you that the owners of the hundreds of apartment complexes here in this geographical area are not installing superchargers for Teslas or even hookups for other electric cars. They may do so if forced to, but that will have to come under an enforceable regulation and even then they will resist as they hate spending money unless it creates revenue. My DW used to have a hard time getting a budget passed for Rental Office furniture at many of her higher end properties, and that was only a few thousand dollars (and a depreciable business expense).

Let's face the reality of these EV's at the moment and call it what it is: They are high priced toys for well off buyers and until they can be bought a lot cheaper and power is readily available and cost effective, they will remain so. There are many millions of U.S. residents that are not able to join the EV parade and won't be able to in the foreseeable future.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

There are roughly 3,000 large apartment complexes in the greater Huston area. My DW used to be a District Manager for Fingers Corp and Capstone Realty, both fee managers of those corps that own hundreds of the complexes. Let me assure you that the vast majority of the renters in those 3,000 apartment complexes can't afford a Tesla, or probably even a Bolt. As a matter of fact, many can't even afford cable TV or an Apple cell phone.

These people are not going away nor are they suddenly going to start earning enough to buy a Tesla or a house (which costs about the same in some lower class neighborhoods around Houston).

I can assure you that the owners of the hundreds of apartment complexes here in this geographical area are not installing superchargers for Teslas or even hookups for other electric cars. They may do so if forced to, but that will have to come under an enforceable regulation and even then they will resist as they hate spending money unless it creates revenue. My DW used to have a hard time getting a budget passed for Rental Office furniture at many of her higher end properties, and that was only a few thousand dollars (and a depreciable business expense).

Let's face the reality of these EV's at the moment and call it what it is: They are high priced toys for well off buyers and until they can be bought a lot cheaper and power is readily available and cost effective, they will remain so. There are many millions of U.S. residents that are not able to join the EV parade and won't be able to in the foreseeable future.

My point was that one could drive to a supercharger.

As for affordability, this is what I have seen in the past. Now this is Socal, not your neighborhood.

I've known renters, been through some of their places. The places are dumps. Bad areas, noisy, all that. And what do I see? Money spent on cigarettes, booze (no idea of how much was spent on drugs), all sorts of wasteful spending that I don't recall exactly at the moment...

And a car that they can't afford in the garage. Some had cheap cars, some didn't. These people just blow every cent they have and whatever they can borrow, to live it up at the moment.

So the Socal renters do purchase cars their budgets can't afford. None of this has anything to do with EV's specifically.

And it shouldn't be long before other posters chime in about alcohol being a necessary expense. I just meant I have seen plenty of situations where people live in dumps, but choose to blow large sums on everything else, including cars.

 

[aja8888]

I lived in Southern California 12 years and also in places like Detroit. The US is full of low income people that will never afford an EV, especially a Tesla. Gas stations won't disappear completely until the oil is gone and that may be many, many decades from now. The politicians can sing the song but reality will prevail. And the $300 Billion in EV research is just a future budget call. One recession worldwide and that will be forgotten and not much of it actually spent.

I like the concept of EV's, but I just don't see them spreading like the morning fog in June in Los Angeles.

 

[Texas Proud]

Google Model X tows Boeing Dreamliner. My X has a 5000# towing capacity.

/snip/

How far can you go with a 3500# boat hooked to the back?


BTW, there are no superchargers are even slow chargers on the way to the lake... or at the lake... however, it is only 150 miles so who knows if it will get there....


BTW, how long to charge on 110v?

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

How far can you go with a 3500# boat hooked to the back?


BTW, there are no superchargers are even slow chargers on the way to the lake... or at the lake... however, it is only 150 miles so who knows if it will get there....


BTW, how long to charge on 110v?

On 110v you get 4 miles per hour of charging. So if you plugged in after w*rk at 5pm, and unplugged at 8 am the next day, you would pick up 60 miles of range.
If you're driving 300 miles, it wouldn't work.

If the lake drive you mention was my situation, I'd have a truck for towing and a Leaf for the M-F grind, assuming its less than 75 miles one way.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

I lived in Southern California 12 years and also in places like Detroit. The US is full of low income people that will never afford an EV, especially a Tesla. Gas stations won't disappear completely until the oil is gone and that may be many, many decades from now. The politicians can sing the song but reality will prevail. And the $300 Billion in EV research is just a future budget call. One recession worldwide and that will be forgotten and not much of it actually spent.

I like the concept of EV's, but I just don't see them spreading like the morning fog in June in Los Angeles.

You get an A+ for your weather recollection.

There are lots of EV's in CA, however. Far fewer everywhere else.

 

[Music Lover]

On 110v you get 4 miles per hour of charging. So if you plugged in after w*rk at 5pm, and unplugged at 8 am the next day, you would pick up 60 miles of range.
If you're driving 300 miles, it wouldn't work.

It wouldn't work at 61 miles either. Or, at 50 miles if you got home late. Or at 40 miles if you ran a few errands before your trip.

Best case scenario only works in best case situations. The real world is far different.

 

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by Mr. Tightwad
On 110v you get 4 miles per hour of charging. So if you plugged in after w*rk at 5pm, and unplugged at 8 am the next day, you would pick up 60 miles of range.
If you're driving 300 miles, it wouldn't work.

It wouldn't work at 61 miles either. Or, at 50 miles if you got home late. Or at 40 miles if you ran a few errands before your trip.

Best case scenario only works in best case situations. The real world is far different.

It could still work. If the EV has 200 mile range for example (or even far less), you'd have reserve, so you could still make a 60 mile commute, with an unexpected 40 mile side trip. You'd be down to 100 mile range. Maybe you got home late and can't charge, no problem you still have 100 mile range for the next day, so buffer even for your 60 mile commute.

So you can make it up on one of the lower travel days (w/e?), or get to a fast charge station to top off when convenient.



Now, will any of the fans actually acknowledge I defended the EV there? Or will they stick with biased, derogatory comments like "not a single positive thing to say, or "EV basher'?

-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

I lived in Southern California 12 years and also in places like Detroit. The US is full of low income people that will never afford an EV, especially a Tesla...

How 'bout this? Stop giving EV tax credits to people who do not need it. Instead subsidize EVs for low-income people.

Where's the money? You just have to tax the right people.

Lemme see. We can make rich people pay $75K for a $50K EV. Then, let the poor people have the same car for $25K. Fair?

PS. The poor people most likely will sell their subsidized EVs for $50K and use the $25K gain for booze and what have you. But hey, they need the booze more than an EV.

 

[Texas Proud]

It could still work. If the EV has 200 mile range for example (or even far less), you'd have reserve, so you could still make a 60 mile commute, with an unexpected 40 mile side trip. You'd be down to 100 mile range. Maybe you got home late and can't charge, no problem you still have 100 mile range for the next day, so buffer even for your 60 mile commute.

So you can make it up on one of the lower travel days (w/e?), or get to a fast charge station to top off when convenient.



Now, will any of the fans actually acknowledge I defended the EV there? Or will they stick with biased, derogatory comments like "not a single positive thing to say, or "EV basher'?

-ERD50

Heck, you are just doing this to get on their good side....

 

[ERD50]

Heck, you are just doing this to get on their good side....

Or claim they finally 'converted' me!

-ERD50

 

[Al in Ohio]

Solar won't produce enough electricity. There's not enough steel in the world to build enough windmills to produce any appreciable amount of electricity.

Wrong on both counts above. This world has plenty of steel remaining and solar power can and will produce vast quantities of electricity. It’s just a matter of time.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

It wouldn't work at 61 miles either. Or, at 50 miles if you got home late. Or at 40 miles if you ran a few errands before your trip.

Best case scenario only works in best case situations. The real world is far different.

An intelligent person would take their Model 3, which has a range of 310 miles, and drive 61 miles leaving 249 left. Then they would charge their vehicle for 15 hours (in our example) and leave the next day with 309 miles of range.

A moron would attempt to drive 61 miles with 60 miles of range.

I have confidence that you would be in the former category.

You do realize that there are over 200,000 Tesla owners that do that first example every day. Some even belong to this forum.

Why some of you keep repeating it can't be done is a mystery.