Could bonds be great in 2024?

Lsbcal

Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Joined
May 28, 2006
Messages
8,810
Location
west coast, hi there!
I think that the answer is "yes".

When the Fed even pauses things can get really good for bonds:

image4.jpg


see article: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/how-to-navigate-a-fed-pause-get-out-of-cash-now-110001332.html

My own data from 1995 after a bad 1994 bond market shows strong bond returns even when 3 month Treasuries just came down mildly. The 3mo Treasuries went down less then 1% but intermediate and even short term bonds had a great year (Total bond market +18.2%, short term investment grade +12.1%).

My chart:

image3.jpg



Stocks returns were fantastic.
 
Based upon current market conditions, I would have to agree. I think you want to be extending maturities here (as I have said all year) and now possibly moving some portion of your fixed income allocation into selected closed end funds which are trading at a discount.
 
Based upon current market conditions, I would have to agree. I think you want to be extending maturities here (as I have said all year) and now possibly moving some portion of your fixed income allocation into selected closed end funds which are trading at a discount.

+1
And that is exactly what I have been doing for the last 6-8 weeks or so.
 
Based upon current market conditions, I would have to agree. I think you want to be extending maturities here (as I have said all year) and now possibly moving some portion of your fixed income allocation into selected closed end funds which are trading at a discount.

Which CEF's?
I own PDI and PDT already. Considering adding.
 
I really like WDI. 12.5% yield. 9% discount. Earns 103% of its distribution. Just raised its distribution and its earnings are increasing. YTD +18.5%
 
Dot plot I suppose indicates 3 rate cuts in 2024. I don’t know the timing yet.
With the inflation rate easing and the economy holding in, policymakers on the Federal Open Market Committee voted unanimously to keep the benchmark overnight borrowing rate in a targeted range between 5.25%-5.5%.

Along with the decision to stay on hold, committee members penciled in at least three rate cuts in 2024, assuming quarter percentage point increments. That’s less than market pricing of four, but more aggressive than what officials had previously indicated.

From CNBC https://www.cnbc.com/2023/12/13/fed-interest-rate-decision-december-2023.html

Timely thread Lsbcal!
 
Last edited:
Well any rate cuts would be a big positive.

Here is a chart of the Federal Funds rate change for 1995 which was a big year for stocks and bonds. Notice the Fed Funds rate (red line) only went down about 0.5% from the peak.

image2.jpg
 
10 year down 4.11% Wow. Almost a straight run downward from when it almost hit 5%. Anyone holding bonds today is going to make a lot of money.
 
I'm in junk bonds. Delicious dividends. When rates fall, share price rises. I'll take it. No convincing needed. But i really don't think rates will fall until 2025. Anyone wanna bet me?
 
I have had a mixed portfolio at Fidelity for 10 years now, this past Friday I sold off my entire portfolio and am investing is a new "model". I was thinking 25% bonds at least for the short term, (I am really not a fan of bonds)..... I am not very savy about all this, so I really just look at the tools on Fidelity's website, then pick according models..... I do a bit of research on each fund then go for it and let it sit for a few years.... I have left $$$ on the table.... Fidelity keeps offering their Managed Serives for .85% fees, but I really do not think I am ready to do this...... Curious from those that understand the bond market.... Do you think it is a good time to buy bond funds, are there some particular funds listed on the Fidelity site to researh? ..... I am thinking if you say yes it is a good time, possibly invest for 12 to 18 months and see how they perform :confused: Do you think these funds would generate over 6%..... I have been doing 6 to 1 year CDs for the past year. I am thinking I could make better choices with 2 - 4 Bond Funds ..... What are your thoughts :confused:
 
Last edited:
I don't market time, or bet.
 
Bonds aren't for me.

I had some back in the late 1980's that had a nice yield. Interest rates went down and they got called in.

I had some later, interest rates went up and they went down in value.

In 2008 - 2009 when GM and Lehman went down bond holders were no better off than stock holders.

In my mind bonds were meant to be held until maturity, not to be traded so I'm not a good one to answer how they're going to act in the short term.

I asked a wise old man once if he invested in bonds. He responded "If you like a company enough to buy its debt, you like it enough to buy its equity"
 
I still have a fair amount of bonds bought in 2020 and 2021 maturing this year and a bit next year. Been happily buying 5 and 10 year TIPS this last year.
Comforting to know I have my spending covered till 2034.
 
Pretty much anything duration 2 years or more I leave in bond index funds - a short term index fund plus an intermediate term index fund. I road them down and rebalanced. Hopefully now I’ll ride them up and rebalance again. I’m comfortable with the volatility.
 
I have had a mixed portfolio at Fidelity for 10 years now, this past Friday I sold off my entire portfolio and am investing is a new "model". I was thinking 25% bonds at least for the short term, (I am really not a fan of bonds)..... I am not very savy about all this, so I really just look at the tools on Fidelity's website, then pick according models..... I do a bit of research on each fund then go for it and let it sit for a few years.... I have left $$$ on the table.... Fidelity keeps offering their Managed Serives for .85% fees, but I really do not think I am ready to do this...... Curious from those that understand the bond market.... Do you think it is a good time to buy bond funds, are there some particular funds listed on the Fidelity site to researh? ..... I am thinking if you say yes it is a good time, possibly invest for 12 to 18 months and see how they perform :confused: Do you think these funds would generate over 6%..... I have been doing 6 to 1 year CDs for the past year. I am thinking I could make better choices with 2 - 4 Bond Funds ..... What are your thoughts :confused:

I don't really understand what you held, or what your goals are. I used to pick whatever was hot only to have it turn cold; now I realize that models and predictions are no more accurate than throwing a dart. If there are people that can actually outguess everyone else about the future, they trade solely for their own account from their private island. Or as Jack Bogle (late Vanguard CEO) said, "I've never met anyone that could time the markets consistently, in fact, I've never met anyone that met anyone that could do it".

Maybe try going to the bogleheads.org wiki and reading about getting started. It will walk you through making a plan (that they call an investor policy statement), deciding on a stock/bond asset allocation and then buying a total stock market fund to meet your stock allocation. Note that long term, your enemy is inflation, not stock volatility, so unless you have way more than you'll ever spend, you should have some stock exposure, retirement studies suggested a minimum of 30% stocks for a 30 year retirement. Like you, I've always hated bonds and 2022 did nothing to help that. I've stuck with my 80/20, but you have to pick a number that lets you sleep at night.

If you want some international flavor, you can put 20-30% of your stocks in that as insurance against bad governance in the US or the US market getting way overvalued. When year after year of bad international performance drags on, you have to remind yourself that this is insurance.:(

Fixed income deserves more discussion.
-For money you will need soon, money markets or CDs are OK, though if bond interest rates drop, you will not participate in the gain.
-Some folks buy a ladder of TIPS - if they know their cash needs, that protects them against inflation. If they're wrong about their cash needs, the inflation protection is not as good.

Bond funds are just a collection of individual bonds managed by the broker. That's good in that the broker is a pro in evaluating the risks and they get very good pricing when they buy and sell. It's not so good in that duration of the fund is roughly constant, but your remaining lifetime is not and you may have specific needs for them money in shorter time frames than that. Funds that have longer duration than your average need for the money are a poor fit. That can be mitigated by selling some off each year so the average duration matches your duration.

Some folks want to hold individual bonds, but if you do so, I suggest limiting your holdings to Treasuries or TIPS, you do not want to lose out because you incorrectly assessed the call risk or default risk of some corporate bond.

I try to keep things simple and just use an intermediate bond fund like Vanguard's BIV or BND and we keep 6 months or so of spending needs between checking and a money market account.
 
This tells me that VBTLX/BND should have a good year. Even while many (including me) were running from VBTLX early in 2023 while rates were climbing, VBTLX returned 5.7% last year. Not too bad.
 
I have some Ira $ in VBTLX, so it might be wise to convert to Roth early in the year instead of waiting.
 
I think bonds are a pretty good bet, but over the next 2 or 3 years. I do not think the Fed will cut as quickly as is expected, but I do think they will cut this year and next.
In synch with OP, I have changed out some bond holdings (Mutual funds) to longer duration, including a couple 12-14 year Treasury funds, send some cash to intermediate/semi-long bond funds and held off on increasing the stock allocation to 65%. I have always held intermediate to intermediate/short duration bond funds, so this will be interesting, but the main shift is from cash to bonds.


If we do not have a hard landing, mid/large value stock funds may benefit, which was another focus of rebalancing, but we will see. I did sell more than half of gains in the S&P index, to fund this year's withdrawals, and also fund some of the bond/international stock increases. I'm a little concerned about the dependence of the S&P on the Magnificent 7 over the last few years, but we will see. This year should be interesting.
Unlike Odin, my one good eye cannot see the future.
 
Last edited:
This tells me that VBTLX/BND should have a good year. Even while many (including me) were running from VBTLX early in 2023 while rates were climbing, VBTLX returned 5.7% last year. Not too bad.
That’s what I’m expecting too. I don’t trade often but I took everything I had in VBTLX in Spring 2022 and put it in T-Bills, avoiding much of the VBTLX NAV drop. I’m thinking as my T-Bills mature this year, some if not all will go back into VBTLX.
 
That’s what I’m expecting too. I don’t trade often but I took everything I had in VBTLX in Spring 2022 and put it in T-Bills, avoiding much of the VBTLX NAV drop. I’m thinking as my T-Bills mature this year, some if not all will go back into VBTLX.

Good timing for you, congrats!!

VW
 
Good timing for you, congrats!!

VW
I got hit with some of the downward slide, but at least I missed a good part of it. Six months earlier would have been ideal, but I’m not a trader/timer, it was just obvious there was no upside short term so I acted. Just lucky, and paying attention here on er.org…:cool:
 
I got hit with some of the downward slide, but at least I missed a good part of it. Just lucky, and paying attention here on er.org…:cool:

Luck had nothing to do with it. You were brilliant, admit it. ;)

P.S. I went to cash at the very beginning of 2022 for my fixed income. Wish I had done it for equities. Win some, loose some. I view the 2022 bond debacle as one that will not repeat in my lifetime.
 
Back
Top Bottom