Did Bubba Blow It?

[haha]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12703029/
Good article on US healthcare.

Ha

 

[youbet]

Excellent, balanced article. Thanks HA.

 

[sgeeeee]

Excellent, balanced article.  Thanks HA.

The conclusion makes sense, but the history is nonsense. The Republicans showed no signs of comprimise when Clinton pushed for healthcare reform. They aimed their attack machine at Hilary and shot rhetoric and BS nondiscriminately. They soured their one-dimensional right wing base to any thoughts of healthcare reform. Now that it is obvious that reform is needed, they have a problem. Somehow they have to blame Clinton for their own efforts to scuttle realistic reform before they can claim credit for fixing the problem.

It's interesting that the same thing is true for energy reform. Only with energy, it was Carter who tried to reform and became the target of their attacks. Now, with our energy dependance on the flakey governments in the mid-East and oil companies holding us hostage, the Republicans are scrambling to act like no one saw this comming and to deny that it was they who scuttled the efforts to avoid this mess.

I really hope that John McCain can gain influence in the Republican party. He seems to be an honest conservative that could lead the party toward honesty, debate and reason. He is more conservative than I would like to see, but he seems less inclined to use the reactionary attack machine and more inclined to discuss real issues.

 

[youbet]

The conclusion makes sense, but the history is nonsense. 

Agreed, except that ole Bubba should have been able to push healthcare reform through. Yep, the darn GOP was yelping and whining, but the means to get the job done was there for Bill, he just didn't execute. A lesson learned I guess. I was pulling for him and that's one area where he let me down.

 

[lets-retire]

Interesting article. All I can add is I used the VA, but now I wouldn't go there unless Jack Kevorkian was busy. The VA hospital near me is not good, some, me included, would even say bad. Socialized medicine is not a good answer to the problems.

I find it interesting that the Democrats will complain that the government is spending too much money, but turn around and want it to spend more on social programs. In times when there are budget deficits I think a strict reading of the Constitution should be mandated. Meaning any spending not expressly authorized by the constitution must be cut, or not given the typical annual budget increases. I say this when I'm applying for jobs that fall into the not required category. It is similar to what everyone on this board does. If you don't have the money then you cut out the unnecessary spending. No movies, eating out, or other luxuries and take care of the required items, rent/mortgage, food, electric, water etc.

I think the downfall of the great civilizations start when the governments spend on entitlement programs, which seem to have a tendency to grow uncontrollably. As with any business when the leadership starts to expand into areas outside thier expertise the business starts to falter and lose money. Outside of protecting the country the federal governement has few valid reasons for spending money. Notice I said few reasons not no reasons.

Now blast away.

 

[brewer12345]

Interesting article.  All I can add is I used the VA, but now I wouldn't go there unless Jack Kevorkian was busy.  The VA hospital near me is not good, some, me included, would even say bad.  Socialized medicine is not a good answer to the problems.

I get the impression with the VA that the problem is more around not spending enough on veterans' care at the same time we are creating more veterans with expensive, long term health issues. That sounds like a funding issue, not a "socialism" issue.

I think there is room for private enterprise within a more publicly-supported medical system. Lots of private companies out there are good at controlling the progress and cost of diseases in large populations. We wouldn't want to do away with stuff like that even with a more UK style system. I don't know what the realistic solution is, but the system we have now is falling apart. The real question in my mind is at what point do we reach a crisis that frces us to clean up the mess?

 

[lets-retire]

I get the impression with the VA that the problem is more around not spending enough on veterans' care at the same time we are creating more veterans with expensive, long term health issues.  That sounds like a funding issue, not a "socialism" issue.

That could be true. I know the VA always seems to be under funded. The last time I used them was before the Iraq war and I won't go back for anything. I could receive free medication from them for an injury I received in the military, but I won't. With my luck they would goof up the script and give me cyanide.

 

[Cut-Throat]

Agreed, except that ole Bubba should have been able to push healthcare reform through. Yep, the darn GOP was yelping and whining, but the means to get the job done was there for Bill, he just didn't execute. A lesson learned I guess. I was pulling for him and that's one area where he let me down.

Right, it was Bill Clinton's fault

Bill had a GOP congress. The Big Health insurers had the 'Harry and Louise' commericals that suceeded in brainwashing the American masses that cannot figure out issues for themselves. You can spin this issue, as most right-wingers do, but these are the facts.

 

[MasterBlaster]

The real issue is that for the 80 percent of Americans with health care insurance there was no big problem.

Bubba's problem was trying to get those people with health care insurance to agree to a VA style system where the service is poor.

That's a pretty hard sell !

 

[eridanus]

I find it interesting that the Democrats will complain that the government is spending too much money, but turn around and want it to spend more on social programs. In times when there are budget deficits I think a strict reading of the Constitution should be mandated. Meaning any spending not expressly authorized by the constitution must be cut, or not given the typical annual budget increases.

Did you mean to write "Republicans"?

Edit:
"President Bush has presided over the largest overall increase in inflation-adjusted federal spending since Lyndon B. Johnson. Even after excluding spending on defense and homeland security, Bush is still the biggest-spending president in 30 years. His 2006 budget doesn’t cut enough spending to change his place in history, either.

Total government spending grew by 33 percent during Bush’s first term. The federal budget as a share of the economy grew from 18.5 percent of GDP on Clinton’s last day in office to 20.3 percent by the end of Bush’s first term."

From the liberal think-tank, Cato.org.

 

[Maximillion]

lets-retire, put a 1000 Senior Americans in a room, explain to them how Universal Access to Health Care works, no BS, straight facts, then ask them which system do they want?

I spent 30 years in International Health Care in a Senior position with one of the largest U.S Corporations, there is no doubt in my mind for the overall average benefit, the Canadian system is a slam dunk over the U.S.

If you are Healthy, have a GOOD Plan from an employer, can access insurance in your Senior Years, then the U.S system works best for that minority.

In Canada, no one is refused Health Care, there is no deductible, there is no maximum to the benefit, you just might have to wait for non life threatening Surgery.

The frustration with the U.S is that there is more than enough money to provide all with Health Care, get the Lawyers out of the way, CUT the Military Budget, get all HMO's on the same page.

You Guys are the Richest Nation in the World, you are the only ones without Universal Access.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Rather than that maybe we should invade Canada and put all the Canuks in a slave camp mining gold.

That would surely pay for universal health care for everyone in the US.

 

[brewer12345]

Rather than that maybe we should invade Canada and put all the Canuks in a slave camp mining gold.

That would surely pay for universal health care for everyone in the US.

Well, the US military is stretched a little thin these days, so we would probably have to draft a lot of illegal Mexican immigrants to get the job done.

 

[Nords]

That could be true.  I know the VA always seems to be under funded.  The last time I used them was before the Iraq war and I won't go back for anything.  I could receive free medication from them for an injury I received in the military, but I won't.  With my luck they would goof up the script and give me cyanide.

No they wouldn't.  They'd have you fill out the financial means-test form and tell you that you don't have a high enough priority to merit any VA assistance.

I read an article last week written by the current VA Secretary.  He's just finished fixing all of the problems that the VA has had for the last 40 or so years.  And with today's means testing, he now has more than enough money to take care of the two veterans who've proven that they actually can't afford to pay for their own healthcare!

Well, the US military is stretched a little thin these days, so we would probably have to draft a lot of illegal Mexican immigrants to get the job done.

Perhaps, but as a condition of their enlistment we'd accelerate the processing of their citizenship applications.  So we'd actually simultaneously solve the problems of illegal immigration across both the north & south borders. 

It's a good thing that Donald Rumsfeld doesn't believe in retirement or he might actually read that last paragraph...

Although when the new veteran citizens were discharged they probably wouldn't qualify for VA services.

 

[Maximillion]

MB, my only concern in your statements is that we would probably win, in which case we would have both the US problem and the Illegal problem.

A radical thought, cut the US Military by 80%, confine them to only Domestic responsibilities, pay some African nation to use their troops on UN Mandated Missions.

No more phony invasions, impoverished African nation gets much needed Foreign Currencies, no more American children dieing for a cause no one believes in.

 

[brewer12345]

Although when the new veteran citizens were discharged they probably wouldn't qualify for VA services.

Excellent! So the hit to the budget would be modest. Maybe then we could have another round of tax cuts that magically "pay for themselves."

 

[youbet]

Right, it was Bill Clinton's fault

You may see it that way C-T.  But I was just disappointed that he couldn't, despite the opposition, pull it off.  I didn't think he was in an impossible situation and I really wanted him to be successful. Perhaps I just give him more credit than you do.

 

[lets-retire]

eridanus--After 8 years of low spending on items the Constitution requires (a military and law enforcement), it is no wonder Bush had to increase spending substantially. Many of the other high dollar items were either written by or with the assistance of the Dems, i.e. no child left behind, the medicine improvment for the elderly. You can only go so long without funding required items then you have to spend adn since you have to make up for a long period of no funding it costs a lot. There were times when we had hurricanes coming at my last base and we couldn't evacuate the planes because there weren't any parts. They would cannabalize parts form broken planes as much as possible to have as many as possible evacuate. I remember foregoing required anuual training, because there wasn't enough money to pay for it.

Max--One slight problem, the military is required by the Consititution not universal health care. A quote from the preamble of the Constitution, "form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity..." I see the criminal justice system, the military, and the promoting of welfare, not the provideing of welfare or healthcare for that matter.

The idea of speak loudly and carry a small stick does not work. The quote was speak softly and carry a big stick. In this case the stick is the military. We could go back to just protecting our borders and say the heck with the rest of the world, but that would ultimately result in ours and the worlds economy tanking. In case you haven't noticed, it is a world economy now and we have the largest single economy.

If I remember history correctly I think it was Benjamin Franklin who said that once the population figures out they can vote benefits for themselves then the Republic is doom to failure. Your statement about what the elderly wants is exactly my point. They vote themselves and future generations entitlements and think, "oh we can pay for it by cutting spending on other wastful programs". Sorry my friend, tt's doesn't happen that way. Name the wasteful program not authorzied by the Constitution that can be cut. The criminal justice progams? Military? Welfare for the disabled? Welfare for those who can work but lack the intiaitive to learn and obtain a decent paying job with benefits? The National Park serivce? CIA? NSA? Congress? Name the program to cut. The budget just becomes larger and the deficits just get bigger.

Nords--I filled out the means test and was told unless my treatment was for an injury incurred while in the military I had to pay. Of course that was three years ago so it could have changed, but I haven't received anything from them saying it had.

 

[Maximillion]

LT, "provide for the common defence", right, you are surrounded on two sides, so you need a Navy, but what the hell Common defence are you providing outside your own Borders??

We don't spend massive amounts of money,we don't feel threatened, the era of big armies is gone, so has Cavalry charges, today's warfare is not fought by grand land battles with Armies lined up on either side

A few maniacs on a mission got by your common defence.

Imagine, a foreign entity jams all your computer systems, a laptop can bring the US to its' knees.

Remember the movie War Games, that is close to reality.

 

[youbet]

the American masses that cannot figure out issues for themselves.

The polls say there are millions of Bush-weary Republicans and Independents.  It seems like winning them over instead of pushing them away would lead to a Dem landslide.  Perhaps a strategy to consider?

 

[lets-retire]

Max--Your country doesn't feel threatened for two reasons. 1) Your not the big dog. The lead dog is the one who has to fight. Nobody cares who's second only the top person/country receives the goods. Everyone wants to be the the dominant entity. 2) USA covers a lot of your defense for your country. Just like Canada and I think Germany had AWACS flying over our country so we could deploy the ones we had to Afganistan/Kuwait. USA also covers a lot of defense for Germany, Japan, Korea, and Tiawan. These countries are vital to the stability of our economy. They are hugh trading partners. Re-read the whole economy section in my previous post.

youbet--I can't argue with that logic. You're right on the money. If the Dems figure this out and quit pandering to the far left they stand a very good chance of winning all three houses. That would require the Dems to come back towrd the center, but then they have the whole "you were for this now you say your not" dilema. Kind of like Hillary, when she..uh...Bill was president she was all for a lot of far left causes and against many things that are considered right wing causes. Now she is attempting to make herself over and support more center and right wing things and distance herself from the left. I don't buy it.

 

[Martha]

LT, "provide for the common defence", right, you are surrounded on two sides, so you need a Navy, but what the hell Common defence are you providing outside your own Borders??

We don't spend massive amounts of money,we don't feel threatened, the era of big armies is gone, so has Cavalry charges, today's warfare is not fought by grand land battles with Armies lined up on either side

A few maniacs on a mission got by your common defence.

Imagine, a foreign entity jams all your computer systems, a laptop can bring the US to its' knees.

Remember the movie War Games, that is close to reality.

An Englishman, a Canadian and an American were captured by terrorists.

The terrorist leader said: "Before we shoot you, you will be allowed last words. Please let me know what you wish to talk about."

The Englishman replied: "I wish to speak of loyalty and service to the crown."

The Canadian replied: "Since you are involved in a question of national purpose, national identity, and secession, I wish to talk about the history of constitutional process in Canada, special status, distinct society and uniqueness within diversity."

The American replied: "Just shoot me before the Canadian starts talking."

 

[lets-retire]

at Martha


Max--something I forgot. Your right large armies rarely stand toe-to-toe, but you must have ground troops to take territory. Large armies are still required to control large areas.

 

[Maximillion]

Martha, I like that, gotta remember that one for my buddies

Land mass is taken by Armed forces, missiles, population submits, small forces come in to clean up.

A couple of hundred years ago this really big army invaded this country that had no real army, just a bunch of volunteers who knew the land and could shoot.

The rest is history.

 

[brewer12345]

at Martha


Max--something I forgot.  Your right large armies rarely stand toe-to-toe, but you must have ground troops to take territory.  Large armies are still required to control large areas.

You are, of course, making an implicit assumption that armies will be doing invading. I am pretty sure that doing so has not proved to be a good idea militarily or politically, at least since 1945 or so.

I'd feel a lot safer of our military were half its current size.