Did our forefathers have BS buckets?

I doubt if there is a big change in attitudes towards work, how work affects people, and what is good and bad about work.

As a general rule, I have found that if work is interesting, productive, respectful of other things in a person's life, allows the individual some control over the work environment and is not unsafe, most people don't have a big problem with it.
 
There is a popular saying; "Same Sh*t, different day." That explains the BS bucket question for me.

DF ER'd at 56 when he reached some magic 'rule of 90' or other weird equation that enabled him to get a state pension before he was 65. DGF ER'd also in his late 50's after aging out of a construction company and working for the state for a few years and becoming eligible for some sort of pension there.

Neither complained much and both had fond memories of their w*rk days. However, they loved to brag about how great retirement was. So that sparked my interest in FIRE.

Big difference between then and now is that you used to have to find some way to get a pension where now people seem to be financially savvy enough to make their own pension for retirement...
 
Anyway, here's the question again. Is it true that w*rk keeps getting more distressing through the decades, or is it merely a perception promoted by today's retiree?

No, it's not at all true. Many workplaces were far more distressing than now. It seems to be human nature to glamorize the past and view it with rose colored glasses.

In the past, most didn't have the means to retire early. But it's wrong to imagine that they stayed because the workplace was better. It was far worse in many cases.
 
Among my parents' generation...

1) Mom retired at the age of 62, from the federal government. She was under the old CSRS system, and had pretty much maxed out her retirement benefit. This was also that era where government salaries were getting frozen, so the only way to advance was to get a step increase, promotion, or whatever. And she was maxed out in that regard. Towards the end, she was getting tired of things, but her attitude did become a bit more carefree. She would actually tell people "piss me off enough, and I'm outta here!" And she was valued enough, at the time, that she could get them to chill out on whatever was annoying her.

2) Stepdad: took an early retirement, just before he turned 59, a few months after Mom retired. He worked for the Washington Suburban Sanitary Commission, a quasi government entity that controls the water and sewers around here, and is corrupt as the day is long. My stepdad can be a jerk, but he's also honest to a fault, and as the WSSC got more and more corrupt, it just got worse for him.

3) Dad: Retired at the age of 62. He was a dental technician at a veterans' hospital and made bridgework and such. He wasn't crazy about his job, but didn't really hate it. He retired to take care of Granddad, who was 94 at the time, and couldn't really be on his own anymore.

4) Uncle (mom's brother): Got fired from his job as a truck driver because he didn't properly secure a load. He was 61 at the time, and in poor health, with kidney issues and cancer popping up here and there. He was on dialysis and only worked 3 days per week. I'm sure he was costing their insurance company a ton of money, so while they would have overlooked this infraction for another driver, I think they used it as an excuse to fire my uncle. Anyway, at that point he discovered he could go on disability...in fact, the doctors were shocked that, in his condition, he hadn't seeked out disability years before!

As for me, I've been wanting to retire early for awhile now, but once upon a time, I actually did enjoy my job. I think a turning point came in the early 2000's. We had some pretty big employee turnover in our office, with good employees being replaced by bad ones...yet upper level management let the bad ones get away with whatever they wanted, and if anyone complained, WE were the ones that would get blamed for things! I think that was the point where the whole idea of "It's not WHAT you know, but WHO you know" really came home to roost.

Over the years, those employees sort of weeded themselves out. We got one kicked off our project, when a secretary who liked me planted a rumor to just the right people, that i was thinking about leaving. He ended up getting kicked off two or three projects after that, and once he was no longer placeable, he got put back at the headquarters building, AND given a promotion! Eventually though, a new company won our contract. Most of the people went with the new company, but he stayed with the old one. But once those who protected him were no longer there, that company dropped him like a hot rock.

Another coworker that I couldn't stand, was moved to another building when our project moved. We had been in one big building but were split into two smaller buildings. I didn't really have to deal with her much after that. And then, a few months later, I moved to a totally different project, and all those annoyances were finally out of my life completely.

Still, as time goes by, I've noticed a change, in how they look at us employees. They value us less and less, as human beings with feelings, and treat us more like how you'd treat the photocopier or some other piece of equipment. Something that's expendable. Unless, again, you know the right people. And it seems like there's more bureaucratic BS to go through...too much time spent filling out reports, goals, self-evaluations, etc, and they put more weight on that, it seems, than the actual work we do.
 
I think it was the same as it is now.

The difference was that there was no internet to whine about it.
 
My Grandfather spent a number of years in a German Relocation Camp during WW2. Apparently he was rather opinionated that they felt it necessary to relocate him. One of his sons was fighting in the Pacific, and another son was in the Pentagon. I would guess that his BS bucket was topped off.
 
Pre internet we would meet in person to discuss. drew-carey-hate-your-job-support-group-everybody-quote.jpeg
 
Just a thought...



Our parents and grand parents probably consider us big whiners for having these attitudes and even having a BS bucket...


Kinda like we think our kids and grand kids whine about everything :LOL:
 
Thinking about family in my father's family, he was the first male to retire. His dad was killed on the job, his grandfather died from the flu in the 1890s.

I guess maybe the not living thing was more critical than a BS bucket.
 
Here's a Cliffnotes version.


Love it "I owe my soul to the company store". Yes, the coal companies paid in 'scrip' rather than US dollars, and the scrip mostly only had value in the company store - so they could take another cut from your pay. What a scam!

Here's another, slightly different take - "The L&N Don't Stop Here Anymore", although it speaks of the drudgery of working in the coal mine, the singer finds life to be even harder after the coal mine closes. I love this song, Norman Blake is fantastic.


-ERD50
 
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My father worked construction, he was an electrician. He was a member of the IBEW union, and he spent a few years as a business agent for the IBEW. He had a lot of medical issues from injuries. I think that he knew even back in his 20s that he was going to one day be disabled from the accumulation of injuries. By about 55 he retired from working, and the IBEW gave him a pension.

I enlisted to serve on submarines. I served for 20-years and I got the pension. I planned on this from the early part of my career, so when my pension started I was ready to retire on that day.
 
Oh, absolutely! One of the more enlightening short trips we went on was a two-day tour with Coal Country Tours several years ago. Unions started in West Virginia for exactly that reason. There's too much to write about in full here, but the degree of control exerted by the coal companies over worker's daily lives was by today's standards amazing. It got pretty rough at times, including the only time that U.S. Army troops fired upon U.S. citizens.

If anyone has the time and inclination I highly recommend going on one of those tours. Lots of history that affected the entire country there.

actually, you might want to look up the Ludlow Massacre in Colorado... (machine guns fired upon workers and families...). and they set up their tent camp so as to not be beholden to Rockefellers company coal town...DGM lived there after the mines and coke ovens shut down; still had outhouses in the early 70’s and coal fired cast iron stoves, as well


AFA BS buckets, most were likely thankful to still have all their limbs and health, have a job that paid enough, had water in the well and a roof over their head.....retirement was likely the least of their thoughts
 
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I was thinking the same thing about the Ludlow massacre earlier today! Stumbled upon that place when vancamping on my way to Texas. Nothing there now but some old ruins and a placard with some explanation.

Only technicality was that these were Colorado National Guardsmen and Pinkerton guards (if memory serves), so not sure that they were 'US Troops'.
 
K-R

there never was anything out there, even the “town” of Aguilar is very small, with few amenities
 
Kent State?

Bonus Army Washington , D.C. 1932??

My b.s. pail is almost full.

Kent State was the Ohio National Guard, not the Army. And I think it was the police that did the shooting at the Bonus Army.
 
It got pretty rough at times, including the only time that U.S. Army troops fired upon U.S. citizens.


I believe there were shots fired by 10 Army troops supporting law enforcement and the militia, along with a death in western Pennsylvania during the Whiskey Rebellion. After this, George Washington led additional troops into western Pennsylvania to squash the rebellion, but it had pretty much dissipated before he got there. This was all in the 1790’s during Washington’s administration.
 
Our original forefathers had a humongous BS bucket resolved by the Revolutionary War and endowment of the right to BS buckets to everyone.


I have receipts of my great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather's time serving in the revolutionary war. Was a scout on the muddy river.
 
Take a look at the 20 somethings coming in, they can't stand the BS and they have just started. I meet people all the time, like ran into 2 guys at home depot watering plants, they looked mid 20s, so I asked if they were in college.. no they were both college grads, had both worked in engineering and both quit because they couldn't handle the BS and listed the same BS that frustrated me.

If you notice the younger generation does a LOT of job hopping and I believe they are all trying to find a place where they can just tolerate the BS on a day to day basis.

Things have certainly changed over the last decade since employers held all the cards.. either do what your told or lose your job and not find decent work again...it led to a LOT of bad actors on both sides.. fearful employees are bad employees and do crazy things and managers that know you can't say know often become terrible employers which combined leads to an overly hostile work environments.
 
I think much of the new BS these days results from work requirements, rules, or procedures in response to either new government regulations of some sort, or fear of lawsuits. So government and trigger happy lawyers are to blame. There, I solved it for you. [emoji4]
 
Things have certainly changed over the last decade since employers held all the cards.. either do what your told or lose your job and not find decent work again...it led to a LOT of bad actors on both sides.. fearful employees are bad employees and do crazy things and managers that know you can't say know often become terrible employers which combined leads to an overly hostile work environments.
+1

This is especially true in tech. The '08 downturn was brutal because it also coincided with the technology to offshore easily.

There's a new wind blowing right now. The youngsters don't give a flip about their employer and job hop like crazy. On the cusp of my final days, I feel a bit of schadenfreude wash over me as I watch these highly prized and sought out "young" people frustrate the daylights out of their employer. They (millenials) are not putting up with the crap Megacorp subjected us old farts to over the last decade. It is a thing a beauty. The most sought out prize is biting back at Megacorp. Good for them.
 
If you notice the younger generation does a LOT of job hopping and I believe they are all trying to find a place where they can just tolerate the BS on a day to day basis.

Part of the reason for the job-hopping is there is much less long term job security now that most of our forefathers had. Where you were willing to put up with the BS as a tradeoff for that security.

For example, most companies offered pensions, and vesting in 5-10 years. When I joined my Megacorp you vested in 5 years, and the pension was generous (had it stayed at the same level I would be received 33%-50% more than I actually will be). So folks would be willing to put up with the BS at least for 5 years.

Few offer these benefits now.
 
Part of the reason for the job-hopping is there is much less long term job security now that most of our forefathers had. Where you were willing to put up with the BS as a tradeoff for that security.

For example, most companies offered pensions, and vesting in 5-10 years. When I joined my Megacorp you vested in 5 years, and the pension was generous (had it stayed at the same level I would be received 33%-50% more than I actually will be). So folks would be willing to put up with the BS at least for 5 years.

Few offer these benefits now.




The 5 years is 'new' to us.... from what I can see it was 1988 when the law changed...



I know that when my father was working back in the 60s it was a 10 year cliff... and the manager of the southern region where he worked would lay off everybody when they approached that time...


My dad got lucky as someone screwed up and they fired him too late... but his pension started out at a whopping $45 per month... it has gone up over the years and is now about $100 per month... my mom has been getting it for about 40 years..
 
The mega Corp I work for uses the buzz words of the month, one year I saved them all and incorporated them into my review at the end of the year.
Love it. My megacorp was also very much into trendy buzz words and the latest corporate fads.

Every year we were required to do those mind-numbing yearly goal setting exercises. My colleagues would rant and rave about how long it took them to draft their annual goals. I would just laugh because it took me, literally, less than 15 minutes.

The trick for me was to wait until my manager completed his goals, which I could see online. I would simply copy my manager's goals, complete with the aspirations of 'changing paradigms', 'embracing diversity', and 'fostering an inclusive workplace', paste them into my form, change the tense to an individual instead of the group, then hit submit.

Needless to say, my manager always commended me on my annual goals. :D
 
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