ER - the Rational Response to a world going crazy
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Laurence said:
Laurence,
After observing people at several large mega-corporations where I've worked for 25+ years, I've also wondered why some people (seemingly with similar educations and abilities) have achieved more 'success' than the others.
Realizing that 'success' (defined as pay increases, plum assignments, and promotions) is meted out by other humans, the system for doing so, thus, is imperfect. I think some contributing factors I've observed are:
- their family backgrounds may have given them a network through which they have a connection that the others may not have
- they may have graduated from a school that begets them a corporate 'connection' that others may not have
- some people I've observed just don't know how to 'play the game' as well as some others; they think that hard work is what makes them successful whereas it is sometimes a function of other things
- some people have been naturally gifted with the good looks and oratory skills that get them promoted ahead of the others
- some people are willing to work that extra 1% to 5% harder than their peers
- some people truly have the fortune to be in the right place at the right time (timing is everything)
- some people are better at selling themselves and their work whereas others are quietly doing a great job and are overlooked by management
- some people are fortunate to have acquired a mentor early in their careers who 'paves the way for them' behind-the scenes and thus secures them key assignments and connections which lead to money and promotions (I've even sat in on HR sessions where I've heard this referred to as having a 'pet'. And no one who isn't a 'pet' moves upward far into the well-paid ranks of management!)
omni
omni550 said:
Got my job through a temp agency, but so did a lot of people here. We do hire a lot of relatives, but I can only think of one that is now above entry level.
omni550 said:
Alas, I went to no name state U. But this translates well at my work because it's teeming with retired military officers. Definitely a clubby atmosphere.
omni550 said:
So true, not that hard work isn't neccessary, but just like a small business, you have to advertise your product, not just make a good product.
omni550 said:
I'll let you be the judge on the good looks part, but I have been accused of the "gift for gab"/
omni550 said:
It's amazing to me how far coming in that one weekend or staying late on a coupel of occasions goes so far in the eyes of management, yet some people just refuse to do it.
omni550 said:
No disagreement there.
omni550 said:
Tied into answer above
omni550 said:
Too early in my career for this one.
omni550 said:
I'm the first to admit I have the least barriers to mobility, being an over six foot white male married Christian who is an extrovert, but I tried to control for those factors by only comparing myself to men with similar attributes. I'll tell you what I have seen a lot of is that "label" effect. A guy at work tried out for a junior position in my department, and he was already out of the running before the interview. Ends up the Director felt he wasn't a big picture/team player due to an incident that happened over 3 years ealier. The guy is done at our place of business IMHO.
![:-\](https://www.early-retirement.org/sk/forums/images/smilies/undecided.gif "Undecided :-\")
Don't mis-read me, what he did was pretty inane, but people can change, right?Laurence said:
L.
I have always felt that way as well.
When I got my last and final job 20 years ago, I was a senior P/A (big fish in a small pond) with a starting sal of $55k. There were many other P/A jobs paying $40k to $45k. I think it has to do with my defective work gene theory. The defective gene seems to attract us to the higher paying jobs or jobs with great pensions. We then ER much faster then the normal person as the work gene disintegrates completely. Even 35 years ago, as a "lowly" bicycle messenger in the big apple, I was making $200 a week while the other messengers made about $100-$125. I even got my dumb boss to accept my collect calls instead of me making a .10 call. If he had that defective work gene, he would have said "NO" or at least given me daily $1 phone allowance.
I think Omni550's post is pretty right on for the corporate world.
Personally, I haven't had much luck or good timing, especially compared to some of my friends and family.
Being introverted is a strike against a lot of people IMHO, me included. Hurts one's ability to network and it just seems like extroverts are more likable in most people's eyes. Good social skills can go a long way in a lot of positions.
I worked hard in my last position but it didn't really do much for me other than a pat on the back. I mean the last thing I wanted was a raise
I think the height and looks thing works only if a person has the social skills to match the image.
I don't have any degrees from Brand Name U so I don't foresee much help in that department. The top companies and the best financial jobs I have looked at only seem to recruit from the top MBA schools. I think a person from an unranked school can get an interview for a one of those jobs or at one of those companies if he/she has a connection.
I am not saying a person will not be successful based on anything in my answer. I am just saying that it can more difficult. My nickels worth...
Personally, I haven't had much luck or good timing, especially compared to some of my friends and family.
Being introverted is a strike against a lot of people IMHO, me included. Hurts one's ability to network and it just seems like extroverts are more likable in most people's eyes. Good social skills can go a long way in a lot of positions.
I worked hard in my last position but it didn't really do much for me other than a pat on the back. I mean the last thing I wanted was a raise
I think the height and looks thing works only if a person has the social skills to match the image.
I don't have any degrees from Brand Name U so I don't foresee much help in that department. The top companies and the best financial jobs I have looked at only seem to recruit from the top MBA schools. I think a person from an unranked school can get an interview for a one of those jobs or at one of those companies if he/she has a connection.
I am not saying a person will not be successful based on anything in my answer. I am just saying that it can more difficult. My nickels worth...
Martha said:I think this is a major factor in Laurence's success. Come on, doesn't everyone here just plain like the guy?
I agree, Laurence is very likable but it doesn't explain my job success as I am not all that likable and on top of that, I never finished college.
8)Go figure. I tell you, it's that defective work gene.
Martha said:I think this is a major factor in Laurence's success. Come on, doesn't everyone here just plain like the guy?
Martha: No doubt about it.
An outgoing attitude to go along with technical skills is hard to beat.!
Man, I'm getting red here! Thanks guys! Reading back now, it looks like I was fishing, not my intent!
MJ, you don't give yourself enough credit, but doesn't that make your accomplishment all that much sweeter?
It seems unfair how many things that factor into success are things that can't be taught. Nags my sense of justice.
Thanks guys! Reading back now, it looks like I was fishing, not my intent!MJ, you don't give yourself enough credit, but doesn't that make your accomplishment all that much sweeter?
It seems unfair how many things that factor into success are things that can't be taught. Nags my sense of justice.
Mr._johngalt
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MJ said:L.
I have always felt that way as well.
When I got my last and final job 20 years ago, I was a senior P/A (big fish in a small pond) with a starting sal of $55k. There were many other P/A jobs paying $40k to $45k. I think it has to do with my defective work gene theory. The defective gene seems to attract us to the higher paying jobs or jobs with great pensions. We then ER much faster then the normal person as the work gene disintegrates completely. Even 35 years ago, as a "lowly" bicycle messenger in the big apple, I was making $200 a week while the other messengers made about $100-$125. I even got my dumb boss to accept my collect calls instead of me making a .10 call. If he had that defective work gene, he would have said "NO" or at least given me daily $1 phone allowance.
I had a couple of years over 100K straight income. Spent it all.
Wish I had saved some but it was quite a party!
JG
Mr._johngalt
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Laurence said:
Not really! It's a myth. The best predictor of future behavior
is past behavior.
JG
Mr._johngalt
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omni550 said:
I got labeled (by some) as a PITA and a trouble maker (with some
justification). Can't see that it held me back any. OTOH, I tend toward
the superaggressive, which can work quite well in business, but is less
useful in day to day social interaction. I wouldn't change a thing
(about me), so I guess that's the important thing.
JG
MJ said:I agree, Laurence is very likable but it doesn't explain my job success as I am not all that likable and on top of that, I never finished college.
Go figure. I tell you, it's that defective work gene.
I buy your theory of a defective work gene.
I seem to have the same gene. Most people though who are driven to work very hard seem to continue to do so, long after they could retire. Some of my partners are like that. One is about 70 now, still runs marathons, and works 10 hours a day.
Outtahere
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I always thought there was something wrong with me, I couldn't wait to get out of work, I hate that work interferes with what I really want to do. The older I get the more I feel that way and now after reading here I realize I must have that defective gene too. What a relief!!! LOL
Cj
Cj
I think there still is the ability to change class in the USA, but not everyone is going to take advantage of it. People may think they want to "move up", but it involves making tough choices. Perhaps to some extent people feel more comfortable staying in the class they were born in.
I base this on my family. Father--maintenence man; Mother--Stay at home mom; working class all the way. My siblings all chose to follow this pattern. My sisters all wanted to stay at home with their kids, but each ended up divorced (multiple times) and working out of the home. Brother quit high school and learned a trade. This was back in the '70s, which I believe was the last decade when a working class kid could reasonably expect to find a living wage job with a high school diploma (or none, even.)
I got the college degree, postponed marriage, postponed children. Married, no divorce. My husband and I both found white-collar jobs in government, not much in terms of wages, but good pensions and health care. I would have prefered to stay home with my kids, but I compromised with a half time job.
None of my sibs are stupid or lazy, but the difference between "right choices" and "wrong choices" decides where you go on the ladder. From my observations, these are the "wrong choices":
education: High school diploma, GED or dropout
Marriage and children at a young age
Multiple marriages.
For women: marrying one loser after another, because you feel sorry for them. Or marrying some idiot because he is the father of your children. Marrying anyone and thinking you can improve them. Relying on men to support you, in short, and not preparing for a career in case you end up having to work out of the home.
Ensuring future ill-health by smoking, lack of exercise, alcoholism and drug abuse.
A history of petty crime, even if you've "gone straight"
Mental illness, depression, low self esteem
A basic attitude that higher attainment is impossible, and people who do attain are "cheating" somehow, through getting unfair advantages.
A fatalistic attitude that you might as well spend what you've got now and get a little pleasure from it, because you'll never save enough to make a difference.
Obviously there are exceptions to these points, but overall I'd say these are the things that sank my sibs' expectations. Unfortunately, I'd also have to say that their role models were my mom and dad.
I base this on my family. Father--maintenence man; Mother--Stay at home mom; working class all the way. My siblings all chose to follow this pattern. My sisters all wanted to stay at home with their kids, but each ended up divorced (multiple times) and working out of the home. Brother quit high school and learned a trade. This was back in the '70s, which I believe was the last decade when a working class kid could reasonably expect to find a living wage job with a high school diploma (or none, even.)
I got the college degree, postponed marriage, postponed children. Married, no divorce. My husband and I both found white-collar jobs in government, not much in terms of wages, but good pensions and health care. I would have prefered to stay home with my kids, but I compromised with a half time job.
None of my sibs are stupid or lazy, but the difference between "right choices" and "wrong choices" decides where you go on the ladder. From my observations, these are the "wrong choices":
education: High school diploma, GED or dropout
Marriage and children at a young age
Multiple marriages.
For women: marrying one loser after another, because you feel sorry for them. Or marrying some idiot because he is the father of your children. Marrying anyone and thinking you can improve them. Relying on men to support you, in short, and not preparing for a career in case you end up having to work out of the home.
Ensuring future ill-health by smoking, lack of exercise, alcoholism and drug abuse.
A history of petty crime, even if you've "gone straight"
Mental illness, depression, low self esteem
A basic attitude that higher attainment is impossible, and people who do attain are "cheating" somehow, through getting unfair advantages.
A fatalistic attitude that you might as well spend what you've got now and get a little pleasure from it, because you'll never save enough to make a difference.
Obviously there are exceptions to these points, but overall I'd say these are the things that sank my sibs' expectations. Unfortunately, I'd also have to say that their role models were my mom and dad.
Mr._johngalt
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LRS said:
Excellent post! I had some hurdles myself, but I never had to deal with
low self esteem.
JG
LRS,
your post has the ring of authority -- thanks, and welcome to the Board.
I think anyone working with people who are trying to scrape themselves up off the bottom would benefit from sharing your post -- it walks that fine line between respecting that people are conditioned to act a certain way that might be self-defeating, but also shows them that with effort and knowledge and an understanding of how lots of little short run decisions pile up and become long run consequences, you can start to turn your life around.
I had forgotten until I read your post a documentary I saw years ago that had a profound impact on my life:
It was called 21 Up and later 28 Up; It tracked a handful of english boys, from different walks of life, every 7 years. (Thus the different names: a new name each 7 years, as they added the new segments onto the previsou ones.) In what amounted to time-lapse photography of a person's life, you could see how factors and decisions at 7 and 14 played themselves out on these young men as they moved through school and into the workforce.
There were very few surprises in the film. You began to see with startling, almost horrifying clarity, how someone's life was going to hit the wall. (0ne young man did commit suicide after years of problems) And you saw how the rich raised their kids to think about owning shares, building responsibility and so forth in order to prepare them for a life at the top of the heap. Very powerful -- probably gave me the insight about long run consequences of my actions that have led me to be able to be ER today.
I think I will hunt that film down and show it to our kids, at least our 14 year-old. Any parent of younger children might want to give it a look, too.
Just checked on Amazon -- they are up to 42 Up now, films are directed by Michael Apted, who has been with the project now for 35 years. Still some cheap used ones left at Amazon.
your post has the ring of authority -- thanks, and welcome to the Board.
I think anyone working with people who are trying to scrape themselves up off the bottom would benefit from sharing your post -- it walks that fine line between respecting that people are conditioned to act a certain way that might be self-defeating, but also shows them that with effort and knowledge and an understanding of how lots of little short run decisions pile up and become long run consequences, you can start to turn your life around.
I had forgotten until I read your post a documentary I saw years ago that had a profound impact on my life:
It was called 21 Up and later 28 Up; It tracked a handful of english boys, from different walks of life, every 7 years. (Thus the different names: a new name each 7 years, as they added the new segments onto the previsou ones.) In what amounted to time-lapse photography of a person's life, you could see how factors and decisions at 7 and 14 played themselves out on these young men as they moved through school and into the workforce.
There were very few surprises in the film. You began to see with startling, almost horrifying clarity, how someone's life was going to hit the wall. (0ne young man did commit suicide after years of problems) And you saw how the rich raised their kids to think about owning shares, building responsibility and so forth in order to prepare them for a life at the top of the heap. Very powerful -- probably gave me the insight about long run consequences of my actions that have led me to be able to be ER today.
I think I will hunt that film down and show it to our kids, at least our 14 year-old. Any parent of younger children might want to give it a look, too.
Just checked on Amazon -- they are up to 42 Up now, films are directed by Michael Apted, who has been with the project now for 35 years. Still some cheap used ones left at Amazon.
BUM
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Hi ESRBob,
Speaking of defective work genes and films. Here is a plot waiting to be filmed, if it hasn't been done a thousand times already... My sister-in-law works 12 hrs./day 6-7 days a week. My brother works part time.
She is teaching him how to work. He is teaching her how to play! Watching them is a sketch.
Speaking of defective work genes and films. Here is a plot waiting to be filmed, if it hasn't been done a thousand times already... My sister-in-law works 12 hrs./day 6-7 days a week. My brother works part time.
She is teaching him how to work. He is teaching her how to play! Watching them is a sketch.
I think most people are deeply conservative in the literal sense of that word, in that, instead of wasting time and valuable resources investigating new possibilities, they look at what has been successful for their ancestors, and copy that.
For instance, if a boy comes from a mill town and his dad and uncles work in the mill, he's going to want to work in the mill too. Why would he want to be a doctor or lawyer? He would have only a very fuzzy idea of how to accomplish that--college costs a lot of money and it takes too much time. Plus, doctors and lawyers are oppressors in his world view--always taking money from the working man. No, his plan is to leave school early, so he can start making money right away.
Never mind the articles in the papers saying there's no future for the wood products industry--he won't read them and won't believe them. After all, mill town was founded on the wood products industry and has sent men into the woods and mills for 125 years. His dad and uncles had good wages, houses, cars, boats. All the jobs are union jobs, family wage jobs. Mill town without the mills is incomprehensible.
The girl from mill town has it worse. Her mom and grandma never worked outside the home, and her destiny, biologically and culturally, is to rear children. If she bothers to look around her, she won't find any female professionals in her hometown to model herself after. Except for teachers--but she's trying to get out of school, not stuck in one permanently. She is raring to get out of school and get on with her life.
Eventually, economic forces will force her to rearrange her priorities, so that stocking shelves at Walmart comes first and her kids come second. It's not the way she thought things would turn out, but it puts food on the table.
It's the eccentrics who win in changing economic times. They are the kids who want to leave mill town. Sometimes they are smarter than the rest, sometimes they are lazy and can't stand the thought of throwing boards down a chute for the next thirty years. Whatever the motivation, they are the ones who try something new somewhere else. When all the mills in milltown finally shut down, they are long gone.
For instance, if a boy comes from a mill town and his dad and uncles work in the mill, he's going to want to work in the mill too. Why would he want to be a doctor or lawyer? He would have only a very fuzzy idea of how to accomplish that--college costs a lot of money and it takes too much time. Plus, doctors and lawyers are oppressors in his world view--always taking money from the working man. No, his plan is to leave school early, so he can start making money right away.
Never mind the articles in the papers saying there's no future for the wood products industry--he won't read them and won't believe them. After all, mill town was founded on the wood products industry and has sent men into the woods and mills for 125 years. His dad and uncles had good wages, houses, cars, boats. All the jobs are union jobs, family wage jobs. Mill town without the mills is incomprehensible.
The girl from mill town has it worse. Her mom and grandma never worked outside the home, and her destiny, biologically and culturally, is to rear children. If she bothers to look around her, she won't find any female professionals in her hometown to model herself after. Except for teachers--but she's trying to get out of school, not stuck in one permanently. She is raring to get out of school and get on with her life.
Eventually, economic forces will force her to rearrange her priorities, so that stocking shelves at Walmart comes first and her kids come second. It's not the way she thought things would turn out, but it puts food on the table.
It's the eccentrics who win in changing economic times. They are the kids who want to leave mill town. Sometimes they are smarter than the rest, sometimes they are lazy and can't stand the thought of throwing boards down a chute for the next thirty years. Whatever the motivation, they are the ones who try something new somewhere else. When all the mills in milltown finally shut down, they are long gone.
brewer12345
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LRS said:
Hmmm, maybe I am just an odd duck, but I definately didn't fit the pattern. Neither did any of my 3 siblings, for that matter. Dad is a successful entrepreneur. I'm an investment analyst. Sis #1 is a school guidance counselor. Sis #2 is a social worker. Bro is a layabout. You think Dad has any clue what I or my sisters really do for a living? I bet if you asked him, he couldn't manage more than a title and a hazy one sentence description.
I guess I'm thinking of working class people, wondering why relatively few break out of the low-income, low mobility trap. The stock answer is "because they're dumb and lazy," but I don't think that's it, at least not for every low income person.
I doubt that anyone on this board falls into the category of "conservative" in the way I've defined it--all of us are "eccentrics" or "innovators": after all, we're here because we are financial "radicals" espousing a whole new world view.
Some of us have climbed the upward-mobility ladder so high it's hard to see how we got here. It's worth contemplating from time to time how I got where I am now. I don't want to forget how I got here, or take it for granted.
I doubt that anyone on this board falls into the category of "conservative" in the way I've defined it--all of us are "eccentrics" or "innovators": after all, we're here because we are financial "radicals" espousing a whole new world view.
Some of us have climbed the upward-mobility ladder so high it's hard to see how we got here. It's worth contemplating from time to time how I got where I am now. I don't want to forget how I got here, or take it for granted.
brewer12345
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LRS said:
Oh, I know exactly how I got where I am: I was lucky. Mostly I was just in the right time at the right place. I would, however, point to one thing that made all the difference in my intellectual development and therefore my life: I was given a full ride at a very prestigious high school that was set up ~80 years ago as a charity. To this day, I experience the fruits of someone else's generosity and it humbles me (even more so because my benefactor insisted on never being publicly acknowledged). If I accompish one tenth of the good the foundress of the school did, I would consider my life a wild success.
brewer12345 said:
Well it sounds like you are fulfilling what she had in mind. If I have any money left over when I croak, I hope to create an education foundation/scholarship fund - obviously not as significant as the one you benefited from, but if I can get one person where you are (financially and mentally) that would be awesome.
Alot of times, children from low income, are not even aware of the way people go about becoming high income people. I came from a very low income family. It never occurred to me that I could ever be a doctor or lawyer or engineer. We have a friend that is a doctor and he went to college on a football scholarship. He was not sure of the career that he wanted. Another football player told him that he was going to be a doctor. He said that he thought to himself that if this guy was going to be a doctor, he knew that he could be a doctor and so he did. His father worked in the steel mills and his mother stayed at home. I wonder what his life job would have been if he had not received the football scholarship and had not had that conversation with the other football player. Don't get me wrong, he worked plenty hard to get where he is today, but alot of life is being in the right place at the right time, having the right body build for various scholarships and having people around you that encouraged and believed in you.
Dreamer
Dreamer
