Fat Fire-ees - are you out there?

[JoeWras]

Ironically I've had nothing but bad experiences at Hampton Inns, including turning on the heat setting off the fire alarm and them yelling at us and then telling us if we needed heat they would have to disable the smoke detectors... or maybe clean the radiator so it wasn't so dusty?

Duds occur in all brands, and perhaps I should give Choice another chance. However, I had a bad bedbug problem at one location and have been turned off since. Yes, I know all brands have the issue, I was just shocked to catch it at 7PM just walking on the bed. To their credit, they released me from the room and I walked across the street to the Marriott Fairfield (my backup, and Hampton equivalent).

Sometimes I don't know anymore. Hilton actually has ticked me off really badly in the past, but for some reason, I'm on a Hampton run with really good luck. It is the only Hilton brand I'll visit.

 

[Elbata]

This is exactly why I ask. I can easily see us doing the same thing initially, just out of an overabundance of caution. I don't want to be 10 years in and wish we'd done it differently. As long as we're not in a place we're concerned about running out, I'd much rather be more frugal on the back end, but it's psychologically scary to start with a high level of spend!

This is where DW and I are at. While in Fatfire territory, we live leanfire or just above. But even there, geez, life is friggin wonderful.

Presently settling an estate, dealing with inherited IRA and getting used to hefty pension. All coming in at one time.

But I admit, I've always lived on the frugal end and it makes me happy. I have a friend that makes beaucoup money and spends likewise. For me, I'd get tired of having to spend money all the time.

 

[RobbieB]

"Tired of having to spend money all the time"

Yes that would be a problem.

I try to spend money only when I want to and on what I want. Like first class air travel and top quality hotels.

 

[Dtail]

"Tired of having to spend money all the time"

Yes that would be a problem.

I try to spend money only when I want to and on what I want. Like first class air travel and top quality hotels.

Plus your top notch food.

 

[RobbieB]

Yeah Baby!

Got 8 lbs of "super colossal" king crab inna freezer. $50/lb and worth every cent -

 

[marko]

Comment deleted by marko. Non sequitur.

 

[DrRoy]

All right, I'll call my ER FatFire, but I'm just a bit more than 2 years in. My expenses did indeed go up post retirement. First off vacation expenses went up quite a bit. We've done 2 Europe vacations per year on top of 2-3 domestic air travel vacations per year on top of a number of weekend get-away car trips (the car trips aren't all that different from when we were working though). Our vacations typically are 3-4 weeks long - so higher frequency and longer duration then when we were working. For now our attitude is to travel and enjoy life to the fullest while we're still youngish and healthy.

This is close to our situation, so I also do not know where we will be 10+ years in to RE. My initial RE budget was close to our previous spending, and <$100K. We actually spent just over $100K the first year, with the difference being mostly travel. Even then, after my small pension, our WR was <1.5%, so this year we are spending a little more, and will probably be at 2% WR next year. I know that is still low, but the $ amount to us still almost feels reckless. Gonna force myself to blow some dough.

Have been experimenting with spending quite a lot on travel and entertainment.

It has been fun, but there's an empty feeling, too. I was so used to insisting on value for every dollar, and it surely does not feel as if we get 3X the value and enjoyment in return for spending 3X as much. First class airline seats are maybe 5 inches wider than coach, with a few more legroom inches; and so what if they hand you a premade meal instead of asking for $10.00?

I am pondering this one too. I just see no value in 1st class for domestic travel. For international overnight flights though, I want to give it a try. On our last overnighter, it was just so hard to sleep that I think 1st would be more worth it. Any experience out there on that?

 

[Bigdawg]

I am pondering this one too. I just see no value in 1st class for domestic travel. For international overnight flights though, I want to give it a try. On our last overnighter, it was just so hard to sleep that I think 1st would be more worth it. Any experience out there on that?

Two experiences with United Business. One was Dulles to Hawaii in business. 10 hours. When I got off the plane in Hawaii I felt like I was getting out of bed. Mind you I am 6'6". The other was LAX to Melbourne Australia in Business. 14 hours. Same thing. Felt like I was getting out of bed. Domestic I have no problem flying Southwest in an aisle seat. Trying economy plus on Norwegian from NY to Ireland in three weeks. But that is only 6 hour flight.

 

[marko]

I just see no value in 1st class for domestic travel. For international overnight flights though, I want to give it a try. On our last overnighter, it was just so hard to sleep that I think 1st would be more worth it. Any experience out there on that?

I mentioned earlier in the thread (or maybe another thread) that we tried coach overnight to Europe once. Once. Seven hours of hell. Never again.

Of course, we're quite spoiled because my previous 4 million miles were all in First so we're a bit skewed in our expectations.

I'm of the mindset that First is the real price of the flight and anything below that is a compromise in varying degrees of discomfort.

I'll economize elsewhere.

 

[DawgMan]

Dawgman; I’ve taken note of your numerous threads started over the last several months. You’re obviously on the cusp, trying to figure out if you can serenely keep up your run rate once you transition from W-2 to drawing on your own assets in similar amounts to your recent spending levels.

I can only offer my own experience. Our spend rate is significant (in most recent years $180,000-$220,000 including taxes). I’ve never been able to convince myself to spend more than that despite many years where income was between two to four times that spend rate. Now that I am RE(2017) calculators indicate that we could spend in excess of$300,000/yr indefinitely, but we just can’t bring ourselves to do it.

After decades of LBYM, even fat [emoji91] is on a diet[emoji4]

This, in a sense, is where I see conflict for many (including myself). Breaking the 30+ years of savings/investing/LBYM habits as you transition from accumulation to withdrawal. There is clearly something satisfying when working seeing you are 1) paying your bills/living a fruitful life and 2) putting away dough and seeing your investments grow, and 3) seeing your plan play out reaching FI. Intellectually, you know your FI plan is designed to do exactly what you planned for... retire and do all those things you want to do. Despite all of this, I see the natural tension of overcoming the LBYM habits once you flip the switch to de-accumulation as you remove 2 of your safety nets... 1) earning power (in my case, once I get out of the game, I'm pretty much out) and 2) padding your savings annually. Compounding all of this is now that you have built up your stash, designed to be spent, conservative nature kicks in, and while you don't want to be foolish in your spend and jeopardize your chances of covering future expenses, I believe in knocking out your bucket list sooner vs later (most likely the more expensive years of discretionary spending). Intellectually again (back again trying to remove the emotion), I would expect Fat spending (at least at the level I plan to launch at) would decline after some period as you check off your bucket list in the early years... hence, my original question. Like many, I hope to minimize regrets of not doing something I was financially prepared for because my LBYM gland is pumping too hard.

Look, I get it... these are all rich people problems and if I over saved, so be it. I can always give it away along the way or just make my kids rich if the pot grows. OTOH, I may need to play some Jedi mind tricks on myself to overcome some of these LBYM habits. Regardless of Lean/Fat Fire, I have to believe many of you teetering on pulling the trigger have these same demons?

 

[DawgMan]

It did for us. We deliberately set aside up a slush fund for excess travel when we retired. This was because we had a serious pent up demand for travel, plus we didn’t want to be distracted by market volatility making us feel like we should cut back starting out. That was a good thing, as we retired in 1999!

2000-2002 we traveled a LOT (and ignored the bear market). 2003 our travel expenses dropped because we were ready to travel more on our own, which was much less expensive, and we starting RVing, which is also an inexpensive way to travel. We also didn’t leave the continental US for 10 years.

So for amount the next decade our living expenses were quite a bit lower than when we started. But around 2013 or so, we started traveling more extensively again, particularly to Europe annually. And a few years ago we finally exceeded our initial retirement spending (not inflation adjusted either). Part of the motivation here was that our income had increased a lot, so we deliberately increased spending on gifting/charity and travel - upgrading a lot on travel.

Good intel. I like the idea of maybe setting up a separate "bucket list/fun money" acct that perhaps forces your hand to avoid knee jerk LBYMs temptations. It's there to spent as opposed to mixed in your overall dough.

 

[Freedom56]

People should try JetBlue Mint, especially the Mint suite seats, for domestic travel and then ask themselves is it better than coach? To us It's worth every penny. As for overseas travel, you have to be a sadomasochist to subject yourself and your spouse to 11-14 hours in coach when you could be sleeping in a bed and enjoy fine dining.

 

[audreyh1]

I am pondering this one too. I just see no value in 1st class for domestic travel. For international overnight flights though, I want to give it a try. On our last overnighter, it was just so hard to sleep that I think 1st would be more worth it. Any experience out there on that?

After years of flying overnight to Europe in Economy+ we finally took advantage of a nice upgrade offer to lie flat seats in business. It made a huge difference. I actually slept, woke refreshed, and I didn’t have that horrible nodding off feeling during the day like I usually did on the first day in Europe. Is that worth thousands? Hard to say. I guess it depends on the individual.

 

[Freedom56]

Unless you want to end up in a retirement home where abuse is as common as breakfast, save your money for your later years. We have visited many people in these homes over the years and they are far from happy. We can see the pain in their eyes. At some point you will need to hire staff to take care of you if you want to stay in your own home. This is what will cost real big money. The staff expenses for my in laws are running about $23K per month. They are happy in their home and that's all that matters.

 

[RockDoctor]

I just see no value in 1st class for domestic travel. For international overnight flights though, I want to give it a try. On our last overnighter, it was just so hard to sleep that I think 1st would be more worth it. Any experience out there on that?

Received an upgrade to after being re-routed on a transpacific flight back in the day. Fell asleep right after dinner, woke up as we were approaching LAX.

 

[Lawrencewendall]

What perfect timing. This just hit Fox business and they talk about Fat FIRE and another term I've never seen, Barisata FI.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-finance/how-much-does-financial-independence-cost

 

[Draggon]

my biggest surprise was the things I didn't expect (kids needing $). That is another subject well documented on another post.

If it's not too much trouble, would you mind providing a link to that thread? I'm new here and am not sure how to find it. <---- That's a bit of a lie; I registered in 2014, but this is my first post per my stats.

 

[Alan]

What perfect timing. This just hit Fox business and they talk about Fat FIRE and another term I've never seen, Barisata FI.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-finance/how-much-does-financial-independence-cost

I had not heard of Fat Fire either before this thread and from the definition in the article above we definitely fit the Fat Fire profile

How much money do you need to save if you plan to retire early? For some, retiring as young as your 30s means having accrued a million or more dollars. For others, a few hundred thousand dollars might suffice.

There is a debate raging in the FIRE community — which stands for “financial independence, retire early” — about how much a person needs to have set aside before quitting their 9-5 job. One side, known as Fat FIRE, believes retirees should have enough saved so they have a $75,000 annual budget in retirement, the other side, Lean FIRE, maintains that a $40,000 a year budget will do.

There are a few other variations, such as Barista FI, where you save enough to quit your day job and instead take on small gigs (like working in a coffee shop) to supplement your retirement income.

 

[corn18]

I think putting a dollar amount on lean vs fat is the wrong approach as we have talked about earlier. $75k is my floor and I do not consider that fat.

BUDGET Month Annual
AUTO FUEL 150 1,800.00
AUTO SERVICE 75 900.00
CLOTHES 300 3,600.00
DOGS / CATS 200 2,400.00
FOOD 700 8,400.00
DINING 700 8,400.00
HEALTH / BEAUTY 300 3,600.00
HOUSE MAINT 250 3,000.00
ENTERTAINMENT 200 2,400.00
MEDICAL 500 6,000.00
LUMPY STUFF 365 4,376.00
MISC 750 9,000.00

TOT DISC 4,490 53,876

HOUSE 767 9,204.00
LIFE INSURANCE 220 2,640.00
CELL PHONE 150 1,800.00
CABLE 141 1,692.00
ELECTRIC / GAS 150 1,795.80
WATER 110 1,320.00
INTERNET 64 762.24
AUTO INS 150 1,800.00

TOT NON-DISC 1,751 21,014

TOTAL EXP 6,241 74,890

 

[HMMY]

I can tell you about my in-laws, who FAT FIRE'd at 65. By their early 70s, they realized that their portfolio was far larger than when they retired AND they physical abilities were declining. As a result, they ramped up their spending tremendously, taking the entire family on exotic trips multiple times a year. They are in their late 70s now and tired of traveling so much. (They used to travel every 4 weeks.) They can't spend it fast enough to keep the stash from growing.

I have only been FAT FIRE'd for a few months, but I suspect the same will happen to me since my FIRE budget includes 2 international and 2 domestic vacations annually (which doesn't count the 2 vacations with in-laws) as well as support of parents and children that will probably diminish or go away over time. On the other hand, I am only 52, so I have a lot more time to blow the dough.

 

[Totoro]

I think putting a dollar amount on lean vs fat is the wrong approach as we have talked about earlier. $75k is my floor and I do not consider that fat.

It's all relative .. here's my current not-lean not-fat rough equivalent:


BUDGET Annual
AUTO FUEL 700
AUTO SERVICE 300
CLOTHES 500
DOGS / CATS 0
FOOD 5,000
DINING 2,000 [includes coffee houses]
HEALTH / BEAUTY 100
HOUSE MAINT 200 [I rent]
ENTERTAINMENT 3,000 [includes travel]
MEDICAL 1,200
LUMPY STUFF 1,000
MISC 1,000

TOT DISC 15,000

HOUSE 10,000 [includes rent]
LIFE INSURANCE 0
CELL PHONE 400
CABLE 0
ELECTRIC / GAS 150
WATER 150
INTERNET 0 [included in phone]
AUTO INS 300

TOT NON-DISC 11,000
TOTAL EXP 26,000

 

[corn18]

It's all relative .. here's my current not-lean not-fat rough equivalent:


BUDGET Annual
AUTO FUEL 700
AUTO SERVICE 300
CLOTHES 500
DOGS / CATS 0
FOOD 5,000
DINING 2,000 [includes coffee houses]
HEALTH / BEAUTY 100
HOUSE MAINT 200 [I rent]
ENTERTAINMENT 3,000 [includes travel]
MEDICAL 1,200
LUMPY STUFF 1,000
MISC 1,000

TOT DISC 15,000

HOUSE 10,000 [includes rent]
LIFE INSURANCE 0
CELL PHONE 400
CABLE 0
ELECTRIC / GAS 150
WATER 150
INTERNET 0 [included in phone]
AUTO INS 300

TOT NON-DISC 11,000
TOTAL EXP 26,000

I need to move to the Netherlands.

 

[bclover]

There's a whole thread (actually multiple) on the vagaries of what defines FatFire over on Reddit. What I saw best describing how I view the differences was posted in this particular thread (not by me though) - https://www.reddit.com/r/fatFIRE/comments/5m20ri/how_fat_is_fatfire/

"I think there is an easy way to define leanfire/fire/fatfire. Take a look at the yearly income the person is planning. One short hand for Leanfire is <= $40k/yr and fatfire is > $100k/yr. However, where do those numbers come from?

I think the numbers for leanfire/fire/fatfire correspond roughly to income quintiles. Leanfire people are comfortable being in the bottom 40% of income, fire people are comfortable in the next 40%, and fatfire are comfortable in the next, and top, 20% of income. This 40/40/20 split corresponds, in 2016, to the income levels of <=$42k / between $42k and $110k / and >$110k according to us census data."

Reddit scares me [emoji57] never heard the term until now.

 

[Amethyst]

If the flight attendants aren't constantly coming through waking everybody up in first class for this and that, it might be.

All my overseas flights were for work, so I've only flown red eye coach, and the constant wakey-wakey was my main complaint.

I am pondering this one too. I just see no value in 1st class for domestic travel. For international overnight flights though, I want to give it a try. On our last overnighter, it was just so hard to sleep that I think 1st would be more worth it. Any experience out there on that?

 

[MRG]

Reddit scares me [emoji57] never heard the term until now.

It's a great place. Not just fire topics; whatever you're interested in. Some folks are into canoeing and some into trees. There's subs for both, make sure you're in the correct Reddit sub(read the description, things aren't always that they seem!).