Five ways to prevent retirement

I had read a study a while back, that asserted the "predigree school" was only good for your first job. After that your job performance became the issue. If your a brain at school but screw everything up at work what good are you. Conversely if your an idiot at school, but a whiz at work who cares about your degree.
 
lets-retire said:
I had read a study a while back, that asserted the "predigree school" was only good for your first job.  After that your job performance became the issue.  If your a brain at school but screw everything up at work what good are you.  Conversely if your an idiot at school, but a whiz at work who cares about your degree.
That's probably true to some extent. But the pedigree turkeys often start out in high level, high paying positions and never loose ground. The hard working mutt may pass them up eventually, but it can take longer.
 
lets-retire said:
I had read a study a while back, that asserted the "predigree school" was only good for your first job.  After that your job performance became the issue.  If your a brain at school but screw everything up at work what good are you.  Conversely if your an idiot at school, but a whiz at work who cares about your degree.

Yes and no. In the legal profession, where you received your degree matters -- throughout your career. We call it the "Harvard Dispensation". Here's an excerpt from a message posted on a legal message board describing it:

The Order -- A Primer -- Part V

All large firms engage in the tawdry practice of granting what has come to be known in the business as the "Harvard Dispensation." This catch-all term covers many other law schools besides Harvard and has numerous permutations, but boils down essentially to this: When times are lean and the associate ranks a little unwieldy and uneven, the pruning shears are pulled out of the Firm's closets (you know, that closet at the firm where you put your empty briefcase and the overcoat your mom bought you in college) and some gentle clipping and house keeping is accomplished. Some Spring Cleaning. Some market-based structural employment. Some nudges along the way.

Underperforming associate with vague laziness -- booted. Entitled mental case too uneven to present to clients -- clipped. Hermitic manic-depressive disrupting the ranks and living on borrowed time -- given the Talk. Protected Class senior associate with 1.5 years of bad reviews papered in the file and the approval/go-ahead of the head of the Labor and Employment section of the firm -- the Heisman. Perfectly acceptable, hard-working associate who happened to get into it with the wrong partner -- see ya.

But wait a minute, you may ask. Who is that over there? Yea, that guy/gal, over there in that office. The one with the aloof disposition. Aren't they the first to leave most nights? Didn't he/she only bill 1800 for the last few years? How come they are still here, you are heard to inquire.

Well, the simple answer to that question is that he/she went to Harvard, don't you see. Look on their wall -- see that? All of that Latin lettering on that diploma? That's right -- Harvard. You see, that is worth a lot and firms take notice. If you are smart you may need to bill some hours eventually, but right now you can coast on that sheepskin for a few years at least. The Harvard Dispensation.

Most partners are only a few months out of law school mentally, even if they graduated 20 years ago. They still remember their feelings of inferiority in the presence of that Harvard guy or gal. So when the time comes for a clerk to visit the firm or spend a summer, these partners enter a Geek Shangri Law of no compare. Wow, they say to themselves, we must really be a great firm to attract someone from Harvard. And if that is true, I must be pretty damn good myself, because take a look at this office right now -- I am behind the desk with the resume in my hand asking the questions, and that Harvard Law chucklehead is sitting across from me. Look at him! He is sitting there right now listening to my bullshit, and I went to Texas Tech Law School. Damn, that is awesome. I am awesome.

Years pass, and that clerk has long become an associate and entered the flow of the section. And when it comes time to trim the fat, merit goes aside and Harvard Boy or Harvard Girl doesn't have a whole lot to worry about.

Maybe those big law school loans are worth the money it took to buy the Harvard Dispensation.

Now, I'm not saying that someone without a pedigree can't make it in the legal profession. But a pedigree certainly makes it much, much easier to enter closer to the top, rather than spend 10-15 years working your way up to that level....
 
I'm surprised to see this discussion on this board.

In my experience, accumulating wealth has been primarily a function of spending habits and time. To my knowledge there is no University that prepares students for a 10 to 20 year career, then early retirement.

Over the course of a traditional 40-year career, sure, maybe starting one rung higher on the corporate ladder will get you a few rungs higher near the end.

From an early retirement point of view, we retire when we have enough money, the ladder is irrelevant.

It seems to me that buying in to the whole "successful career through superior education" is the flip side of the coin. The other side of the coin is American-style consumerism. They go hand-in-hand. Do the best you can so you can afford the best there is. I say there's more to life than that. We must simply be willing to reject the earn-spend treadmill that our society promotes, and substitute a lifestyle that is far more rewarding.
 
Jay_Gatsby said:
Pedigrees do matter, especially in the legal and medical professions.  An MBA from a top business school is also a must if you want to reach the highest levels of established companies.

Absolutely agree. Many residency programs post online where their staff and residents did undergard and med school training. You think a competitive program at a competitive school wants to list...Podunk state U after any name? Same with larger, big name hospitals. Esp. the more competitive fields(read > money making). Makes a huge difference. Could compensate for the big name school by publishing lots of articles, be a Rhode's scholar, nominated for the Nobel prize...but the prestige alma mater automatically gives the grad an adv.
Of course perseverence, hard work, endurance, grunt work, motivation, sweating blood will help in any field...
 
slepyhed said:
Over the course of a traditional 40-year career, sure, maybe starting one rung higher on the corporate ladder will get you a few rungs higher near the end.

From an early retirement point of view, we retire when we have enough money, the ladder is irrelevant.

:confused: I believe the ladder is very relevant.  Winding up a few rungs higher in the end is likely to provide much more money, and hence allow an earlier retirement.  :cool:
 
You mean my degrees from Jefferson Community College and UT Dallas aren't pedigree:confused: ;)
 
Patrick said:
:confused: I believe the ladder is very relevant.  Winding up a few rungs higher in the end is likely to provide much more money, and hence allow an earlier retirement.  :cool:

I can't agree more.  
I did my share of ladder rung climbing until I reached the political level where my personality and refusal to kiss butt prevented me from going any higher.  I stopped at a good level and the income and fringes allowed me to live a nice life-style while saving a good chunk for retirement.  I could not have saved as much if I had not been at the salary level I was in while still having the things we wanted to buy for the long term (second home, ATVs, snowmobiles, etc.).  

My first ER allowed me to change companies, change jobs, change location and work in a far less stressful job for only a 20% reduction in pay.  I have turned down two promotions already because I don't want the additional crap responsibility for the minor $$ they would give me for this "promotion".  

In my business, the school name only helps at the highest levels (Wharton, Kellog etc.)  The major middle to upper middle management groups are all mutts but well paid ones.  If you want the Golden Jobs, you have to fit the mold and the "right" school for your MBA is one way there as is being in Marketing or Finance.  
 
Right, we got onto this track when I expressed my regret at not having considered more lower cost alternatives for my daughter's college.

Good points on both sides of this issue. I can say anecdotally that my prestige name college got me my original job in the computer industry, a job that led to the work that let me retire early (combined with being a good saver). But I might have done just as well with a non-prestige U.
 
If I am fortunate enough to have children focused that early in life to be qualified for a prestigeous school, and one of these expensive universities is the best for what they want to do, I will count my blessings and pay the bill. I think you should be congratulated T-Al.
 
Laurence said:
If I am fortunate enough to have children focused that early in life to be qualified for a prestigeous school, and one of these expensive universities is the best for what they want to do, I will count my blessings and pay the bill. I think you should be congratulated T-Al.

I might want to go back to school if you're open to adoption. :LOL:
 
no kidding, If I have a wealthy parent like t-al paying, I say champaign and caviar dreams all the way and only the best school. If paying for myself, an excellent state school all the way.
 
Well, my approach would be similar to T-Als. I really value education for both mental and career development. And connections can count too. Although I expect to retire in the next year or two if my younger son (currently a jr in high school) could get into Stanford or CALTECH I would be happy to keep working. Now this is not likely to happen to my (no kidding) Mohawk haired rock drummer son. I do not push the kid but I will stand behind him. Really, what else do I want to spend my money on?

where your treasure is, there your heart will be also
 
yakers said:
Although I expect to retire in the next year or two if my younger son (currently a jr in high school) could get into Satnford or CALTECH I would be happy to keep working. Now this is not likely to happen to my (no kidding) Mohawk haired rock drummer son.
Have you seen Billy Gates' high school photos?

Oh, wait, maybe that's not such a good example either...

Before either one of you gets discouraged about the prospects of matriculating at a school with other Mohawk-haired rock drummers, you might want to read Loren Pope's book. Our 12-year-old enjoyed the heck out of it.
 
The latest Economist has the Harvard Prez (Summers) claiming that students with parents making less then $40k go free. Those parents making $40k-60k have greatly reduced rates.
 
How about splitting the difference -- go to a top state school such as Berkeley, Michigan, Ohio State, or UT Austin assuming your parents had the foresight to live in a state with a top-rank public university, do well, and then apply to a prestigious Ivy League school?

I believe that I did it the wrong way. I went a city school (think Gordon Gecko) for my B.S. degree and then a top-five public university for my M.S. Even now, I still wish I had gone to a better undergrad school because, believe it or not, even ten years out of grad school, people still care where I went to undergrad. It comes up in application to business schools, in discussion about careers, etc. The cost difference between a state and city school was miniscule, but dear old dad went the super cheap route and wanted me to live at home. (Hey, somebody had to mow the lawn and wash the dishes!)

When it comes to education, don't skimp. Shop for the sweet spot on the quality versus price curve, but don't shop at the outlet stores.
 
It's interesting to note that US News lists Harvard and CalTech as the two top values, because the average discount is 65%. So you may pay less than at a top state school, (at least out-of-state). Message to parents is: don't look at the sticker price when school shopping. Go through the whole process and see where you end up after scholarships and financial aid. For me, Private U. cost the same as State after discounts and some negotiating.

Every kid is different, too: a big state school may offer more opportunities in obscure majors, and you don't need to start over if you decide to switch majors like you would have at some specialized private schools.

As far as ER, at least for me, if you assume $40K delta for private vs. public school, and that the delta would be invested, and no economic impact on your first year out of college, that's an impact of less than a year on my ER date. Probably a net positive if you include the what I am sure is a definite economic benefit. My first boss out of school told me my undergrad knowledge was equivalent to most masters, so maybe I saved $$ on that too?
 
average discount is 65%

That's the average discount for the average broke American. ER Forumites pay more.

For example, Cornell and MIT have zero merit-based scholarships.

But I agree, go through the financial aid stuff anyway.
 
That's interesting on the undergrad versus grad school comparisons - in engineering, it is usually where you got your grad degree and did your research that makes the big difference - not necessarily the undergrad school. Now, you could argue that where you go undergrad cangive you a leg up to where you go to grad school - but it all depends on what you are actually doing and for how long and how you wish to specialize......

Bridget
 
deserat said:
but it all depends on what you are actually doing and for how long and how you wish to specialize......

True. Some disciplines don't make much sense to get a grad degree in, unless you're doing research. Much of the time, it is better to have a BSE and a PE if you're doing "applied" work.

Of course, ymmv.
 
There is no question that individuals can be wildly successful with no university schooling whatsoever. But there is also no question that certain fields almost require university training as a right of passage. And it is also true that the most lucrative entry level jobs in some fields (finance, law, medicine, etc.) go to those individuals who attended "prestige" universities. It is always possible for those who went to "lesser" colleges to catch up through innate ability and hard work, but it is always preferable to begin the race with a head start.

Incidentally, the WSJ had an article this weekend suggesting that parents need to save for their own retirement first, before saving for college tuition. Makes me happy to be a DINK :D
 
A degree from the Ivy league colleges is not a miracle pill. People can pass out of these colleges and still screw up.

However, if all things are considered equal, a degree from Ivy league colleges not only gives you a headstart but keeps you ahead if you are willing to grind it out in the rat race.

I did not pass out of one but would prefer my daughtet to do so if she has the aptitude for it.
 
I would agree that the "snob appeal" of the Ivy league colleges only works in certain professions. More advanced degrees where you actually create more knowledge in your area of education would seem to provide a higher paycheck and prestige if you came from a top school. A lower level degree where you are working for Megacorp would not seem to carry the same weight or benefits. In the companies I have worked for over the past 30+ years, the only ones thea appeared to benefit from the pedigree sheepskins were the top 2-3 levels of the corporation. Below that it did not seem to matter much where you got your degrees.
 
Bourne said:
A degree from the Ivy league colleges is not a miracle pill. People can pass out of these colleges and still screw up.

However, if all things are considered equal, a degree from Ivy league colleges not only gives you a headstart but keeps you ahead if you are willing to grind it out in the rat race.

I did not pass out of one but would prefer my daughtet to do so if she has the aptitude for it.

My only college degree is an AA from a local junior college. Never held me back at all that I can see (Pres/CEO of 4 corps and CFO/COO of a couple others). Of course, I couldn't
practice law or medicine, nor work for a large corporation
(well, maybe in the mail room). Still, a very successful career. Unfortunately,
I spent all the money. :)

JG
 
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