Health Care Bill It's about Fire and Money

Why should it be illegal? Is there a good reason for it?
Some people believe that health care is a basic human right and that all should receive it equally; that is, one shouldn't be able to "buy their way" into higher quality care or shorter waiting times. I think this is the concept behind the ban on individuals from seeking their own paid-out health care (and is one reason why some wealthy Canadians and Europeans come to the U.S. for treatment, as I understand it).

That's how I've heard it rationalized, anyway.
 
There is nothing wrong with end of life counseling for people in a hospice or those that have terminal diseases. Under the current proposed legislation, the government will determine who gets counseling and when (as well as resultant healthcare). Our President has made it very clear that he doesn't see why people "linger" so long at great expense to the rest of us. The issue is whether the government should even be in that business.

Mandating equal health care for all is a very nice, socialistic dream. The only way it's possible is to ration what is available - so everyone is treated equally - poorly. I am not aware of any nation that has scoialized medicine that prevents (or criminalizes) people able to pay from seeking more care than they can get from the government.

The fact is that we are not all equal - or, as George Orwell said, "some are more equal than others." Even the communists had those of privilege. Only a naive and utterly clueless leadership could postulate otherwise.
 
There is nothing wrong with end of life counseling for people in a hospice or those that have terminal diseases. Under the current proposed legislation, the government will determine who gets counseling and when (as well as resultant healthcare). Our President has made it very clear that he doesn't see why people "linger" so long at great expense to the rest of us. The issue is whether the government should even be in that business.

Mandating equal health care for all is a very nice, socialistic dream. The only way it's possible is to ration what is available - so everyone is treated equally - poorly. I am not aware of any nation that has scoialized medicine that prevents (or criminalizes) people able to pay from seeking more care than they can get from the government.

The fact is that we are not all equal - or, as George Orwell said, "some are more equal than others." Even the communists had those of privilege. Only a naive and utterly clueless leadership could postulate otherwise.
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I am not a socialist. I don't want government to own the means of production. I wouldn't mind government acting as the payor for health care as the insurance model has not worked and the administration costs are way out of line. That isn't socialism. Medicare isn't socialism. But we aren't going to get medicare for all so we have to figure out a compromise. One thing we can do to improve the compromises being discussed is to work on improving medicare and the compensation system.

Our costs are higher than any other country. Many remain uninsured. Our system doesn't work. Costs are getting higher and higher, far outpacing inflation for years.

I see no reason to criminalize people for buying what they want to buy for health care and I seriously doubt any program will provide that. Heck, we will be lucky to get a federal option, much less a federal mandate.

As far as equally poor health care, what is your evidence for that? Ask people in other countries like Canada, France, Japan, Scandinavia, Australia, what they think of their system and whether they would trade it for ours. Look at Germany wait times, they are shorter than our wait times. Look at our emergency departments and compare them to other countries. They don't want our system.

We have rationing now. It is based on whether you are a have or a have not. I think that isn't right. What people are starting to realize is that they can slip into the have not category. Such as if they lose a job and can't buy insurance or their small employer drops health insurance.

I think we are equal enough in the US to be able to provide a mechanism to pay for health care for everyone. People shouldn't die because they can't pay. Now they do.

End of life counseling is appropriate. And not just if you are in a hospice. I have seen too many people and their families unprepared for what to do when things get hopeless. Requiring this as part of medicare is hardly pulling the plug or euthanizing people.
 
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We've got some current government-provided medical care in this country (the VA system and DoD health care). The stats on their performance are available, and some people hold up the VA as a model of efficiency. I wonder why proponents of a government system don't cite these programs more often as successes. I think I know the answer, but I'm not sure.

And we also have a huge example of a single-payer plan--Medicare. The system is there for anyone to see. Now, we'd have to imagine it with far fewer resources (since there'd be no cost-shifting of the approx 20% underpayments to privately insured patients once private insurance goes away.) If Medicare is the gold-standard of cost reduction and superior care, I wonder why the whole US isn't clamoring for care like that.

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Ask people in other countries like Canada, France, Japan, Scandinavia, Australia, what they think of their system and whether they would trade it for ours.
Can we assume that people in these countries really know about our system? They hear what the press (and Michael Moore) tell them. I imagine it does sound scary: "In the US you are responsible for providing your own medical care. You have to find a job that offers medical insurance or pay high rates as an individual. Only the poor and the old get care provided for them." That would be pretty scary for someone who believed health care was some sort of "right." Citizens of these countries probably can't imagine that most people here like the care they get. And just like the citizens in these countries, most Americans apparently don't want to swap the system they have for systems as they have in these other countries.

We definitely need to improve our system, but we should recognize that it will be very easy for us to us to end up with one that is more expensive and less effective than the one we have now. For example, the GAO says the current system dreamed up by Congress is much more expensive than the one we've got.

I think many citizens in countries with socialized medicine will like their plans a lot less if the US also adopts such a plan and the trickle-down of pharmaceutical/medical advances from the US ends.
 
I'll support any health care reform package passed by Congress, no questions asked- if they and their families are included and bound by it. Under the provision to abolish alternate private plans, we should be able to quickly phase out the current Congressional health care plan- in favor of the new and improved version...;)
 
I'll support any health care reform package passed by Congress, no questions asked- if they and their families are included and bound by it. Under the provision to abolish alternate private plans, we should be able to quickly phase out the current Congressional health care plan- in favor of the new and improved version...;)

I will put a bottle of bubbly to chill and we can all get together and pop the cork when that happens!
 
I'll support any health care reform package passed by Congress, no questions asked- if they and their families are included and bound by it. Under the provision to abolish alternate private plans, we should be able to quickly phase out the current Congressional health care plan- in favor of the new and improved version...;)

Do you have a link to the congressional health care plan?
 
I would think that a "gatekeeper" would have to determine the probability of a good outcome from the treatment.

Someone with a 20% chance of being "saved" with a $1 million price tag might be allowed treatment whereas someone with a 1% chance seeking a $500,000 treatment might not be.

And even in cases which are 100% terminal, when talking about treatments which could extend lives, you'd need to factor in at least three things: (a) the cost of the treatment, (b) the length of time we're talking about, and (c) the likely quality of that extra time.

You forgot one thing, and possibly the most important- is the patient a member of a politically favored group?

Ha
 
Tonights address by the President should be very interesting. I heard on talk radio today that some of the very questions posed on this thread will likely be asked, like will congress and all government employes be included. If I like my current plan can I keep it as you promised or will it automatically be cancelled if the plan sponsor changes any terms, coverages or premiums? I can't wait to hear it. But then again, what you hear may not be what you get. I find the government telling more and more untruths. I'm quickly losing my faith in the honesty of this administration. One good question I heard today was why are we in such a rush to pass this bill when most of it won't take effect until 2013. Most of congress hasn't read the bill which is normal I suppose. One reason for the rush is the longer it hangs around the more people can shoot holes in the bill and they surely don't a lot of questions asked.
 
Ask people in other countries like Canada, France, Japan, Scandinavia, Australia, what they think of their system and whether they would trade it for ours. Look at Germany wait times, they are shorter than our wait times. Look at our emergency departments and compare them to other countries. They don't want our system.


No matter how well their systems work, in a million years we will not get one. As a political process we seem to be uniquely snakebit when it comes to doing anything sensible.

PS: whatever the President, or Mrs Pelosi, or anyone else says, they lie.

Ha
 
"Do you have a link to the congressional health care plan?"

Congress and all federal employees are covered by the Federal Employees Health Benefit Plan. Here is a link to it: OPM-Federal Employees Health Benefits Plan Home Page

It is, by far, one of the best available systems in the US and would be an excellent model for coverage. With one exception - it costs the employee and the government a heck of a lot of money. Blue Cross Blue Shield for a family runs the employee $350 a month and the government about another $1,000. The government pays 75% of most plan premiums, the employee 25%. Some of the plans cost more, some less - depends on what you consider important. There are several million people under the plan. The biggest complaint of people coming into the goverment from industry is "What?? You have to pay for your coverage?" The company I work for has cheaper and better coverage, BUT, you can't carry it into retirement.

It would be far more efficient to model the single payer plan on FEHB, except for the fact that it would bankrupt the US. That's the problem - FEHB is an employee benefit, not a freebie. If everyone were to have such coverage, then you would need to have rationing to keep costs down. And rationing of health care is, without question, socialized medicine. Single payer by itself is not - but once you have half the population not paying, you have a huge income redistribution and that's socialism. Half the people in the US don't pay any taxes now - let's give them free health care to boot - and have an ever diminishing middle and upper class pay the bill.

Why bother working or paying for insurance? If the government provides everything, may as well just sit home and collect. Oh, I forgot, sooner or later, you run out of rich people - and rich will be defined as anyone who actually is dumb enough to work.

Most people will gladly take something for nothing and then be very upset when you try to take that benefit away. Just human nature.
 
You forgot one thing, and possibly the most important- is the patient a member of a politically favored group?

Ha

Yes Ha, this is essential and for anyone who wonders what I refer to compare the stimulus awards over the red/blue state and county map.
 
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It would be far more efficient to model the single payer plan on FEHB, except for the fact that it would bankrupt the US. That's the problem - FEHB is an employee benefit, not a freebie. If everyone were to have such coverage, then you would need to have rationing to keep costs down. And rationing of health care is, without question, socialized medicine.

Deciding what the government will pay for, what you call rationing, is not socialism by any definition. It might be something you are concerned about, but it isn't socialism.
 
Many of the following mailboxes are full. I did leave a message for Harry Reid. With the Cap & Trade costs estimated at $3100 annually per household (mine will be more due to sq footage of home) and more sudsidation of healthcare for able bodied lower wage workers I will have to sell my home. I can not afford this administrations grandiose plans for wealth re-distribution. Can you?

 
Tonights address by the President should be very interesting. I heard on talk radio today that some of the very questions posed on this thread will likely be asked, like will congress and all government employes be included.

At 47 minutes after the hour, he said (in more words) NO.

He did say that the public plans are "more like the Federal Employees plan", but he did not say they would use the same plan.

I hope to find a transcript later...

-ERD50
 
sorry, this is OT, but I have the window open...

I can't believe he is talking about the Gates thing when he does not have all the facts (unless he got briefed on every detail by the local police and all witnesses, which I doubt).

Some of the reports I've read say that it was Gates that started with the racial accusations towards the officer, who was responding to a 911 call regarding a break in.

I don't know how it will turn out, but I think he should have done a "no comment" w/o the facts. That just does not sound smart to me.

-ERD50
 
Can we assume that people in these countries really know about our system?

According to the Gallup World Poll

The US ranks 81st out of 115 countries in the fraction of people who have confidence in their healthcare system, and has a lower score than countries such as India, Iran, Malawi, or Sierra Leone.

So they may not know our system, they just like theirs better than we like ours.
 
Or, as I suspect, Americans tend to grouse about things no matter how good they are because they could always be better. This despite the fact that we are pretty high up there compared with other countries. Looks a lot better than 81st.

From Wikipedia:

"On comprehensive measures such as the UN Human Development Index the United States is always in the top twenty, currently ranking 15th. On the Human Poverty Index the United States ranked 16th, one rank below the United Kingdom and one rank above Ireland.On the Economist's quality-of-life index the United States ranked 13th, in between Finland and Canada, scoring 7.6 out of a possible 10. The highest given score of 8.3 was applied to Ireland. This particular index takes into account a variety of socio-economic variables including GDP per capita, life expectancy, political stability, family life, community life, gender equality, and job security."
 
At 47 minutes after the hour, he said (in more words) NO.

He did say that the public plans are "more like the Federal Employees plan", but he did not say they would use the same plan.

I hope to find a transcript later...

-ERD50

I'm so skeptical of this administration. In order to keep from having the federal employees give up their health care plan, he tells us that he is trying to make our new plan like theirs. That is just so much BS! No matter how it works out, OUR plan will never be as good as THEIRS, He'll try to convince you that it is but I just know better. It's a politician talking.
 
I'm so skeptical of this administration. In order to keep from having the federal employees give up their health care plan, he tells us that he is trying to make our new plan like theirs. That is just so much BS! No matter how it works out, OUR plan will never be as good as THEIRS, He'll try to convince you that it is but I just know better. It's a politician talking.

Here's the transcript:
.... can you, as a symbolic gesture, say that you and the Congress will abide by the same benefits in that public option?

OBAMA: Well, number one, not only in the public option, but the insurance regulation that we want to put in place will largely match up with what members of Congress are getting through the federal employee plan.

"largely match up" leaves a lot of wiggle room.

-ERD50
 
Here's the transcript:


"largely match up" leaves a lot of wiggle room.

-ERD50

I was listening carefully for his answer to that question too......

The "largely match up" statement made me hopeful. But then he went on, at some length, to say that they would NOT be the same plan. That's very disappointing and a signal that there will be haves and have-nots in the possible new system.

It makes no sense that fed employees would not have the same plan we'll wind up with, especially if we're being given the truth about what is being proposed.

Is that how it works in Canada? Non-govt workers get plan B. Govt workers get superior plan A?

As someone who has always had good health insurance coverage, this is starting to be of concern.........
 
Before you jump to conclusions on how great the FEHB is, please read the following:


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Health Care Heartburn[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]By Alyssa Rosenberg[/FONT]
President Obama's prime-time news
conference on Wednesday night was designed, in part, to make the case for immediate health care reform, which is facing some obstacles in Congress. Most of the debate is focused on how much a reform plan would control spiraling health care costs and how many uninsured people it would cover. But lawmakers and advocacy groups continue to discuss health care reform's effect on the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program and its role in finding a solution.

FEHBP long has been part of the health care debate because it preserves enrollees' choice among competing plans and levels of coverage, and its costs are relatively low compared with the costs of operating and participating in private sector plans. During the 2008 presidential election, Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton proposed a version of health care reform that would allow the general public to participate in FEHBP, but would create a separate risk pool to protect federal employees from cost increases that could result if sicker or older participants enrolled in the program's plans. In March, representatives from the Obama administration said they were looking to FEHBP as a model, though they were unlikely to use it as a public option in a reform bill to force competition with the private sector.

On Wednesday, the American Cancer Society Cancer Action Network and the Georgetown University Health Policy Institute issued a report that examined FEHBP from another angle -- as a potential model for the minimum level of coverage insurers would have to provide to participants. The report analyzed how much coverage FEHBP's Blue Cross Blue Shield Standard Option Plan, the program's most popular offering, provides to patients with breast or colon cancer, heart disease or diabetes, and how clearly the plan explains coverage to participants.
The researchers found that Stage II breast cancer patients covered under Blue Cross could pay between $10,000 and $13,000 over two years for treatment, while Stage II colon cancer patients could pay between $15,000 to $17,000 during the same length of time.

They also found that some confusing elements of the plan could lead participants to pay more than they expected for medical care. For example, Blue Cross pays for different amounts of coverage, depending on whether a health care provider participates in their network. The insurer also has preferred providers within the subset of in-network providers, but its Web site does not identify them outright, making it difficult to find the physicians who will receive the highest rate of reimbursement from Blue Cross when they treat plan members, according to the report. In addition, researchers said it might not be clear to participants that enrolling as a family might allow them to pay less out-of-pocket annually than signing up as individuals if both adults are eligible to enroll in the program as federal employees.
"The study shows that the Blue Cross Blue Shield Standard Option plan is 'adequate,' " wrote the reports' authors, Karen Pollitz, Eliza Bangit, Jennifer Libster from the American Cancer Society, and Nicole Johnston from Georgetown. "It offers good protection by covering the most important benefits without caps and with an overall limit on cost-sharing liability. However, it is certainly not 'Cadillac' coverage."
But even if some of the FEHBP options do not provide the best health care money can buy, lawmakers are still protective of the program overall. Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., ranking member of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, asked Chairman Edolphus Towns, D-N.Y., to hold hearings on the House Democrats' health care reform bill, H.R. 3200, on the grounds that FEHBP might not meet the standards in the bill for a "qualified health benefits plan." To meet that standard, providers would have to satisfy a number of conditions, including agreeing to cover pre-existing medical conditions, guaranteeing that individuals can re-enroll in their insurance plan unless they have failed to pay premiums, covering mental and physical health treatment the same way, and ensuring that adequate provider networks are available to participants.

"This legislation should not move forward until we know its effect on our federal employees," Issa wrote to Towns in a letter.

On Monday, Towns denied Issa's request to hold hearings, saying the legislation includes a five-year grace period for plans to make changes to meet the criteria for qualified plans, so FEHBP would have until 2018 to make what Towns described as the minor administrative and coverage changes necessary to meet those standards.
Even if Oversight and Government Reform doesn't hold hearings on health care reform, other committees will. And as lawmakers struggle to determine how to cover as many people as possible for the least amount of money, the programs available to federal employees will be in the spotlight.
 
Before you jump to conclusions on how great the FEHB is, please read the following:

Regardless how good the FEHB is or isn't, it just comes across as a bit patronizing to say that this new plan is great for American's, but no, we are not going to have our Federal Employees in that plan.

The reporter even said it could be a symbolic act. I thought it was a very good point. Though I agree that the President and VP should have way above-and-beyond the "normal" plan, the stability that comes from knowing their health status and heading any problems off is important to the country.

-ERD50
 
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
Can we assume that people in these countries really know about our system?
According to the Gallup World Poll

The US ranks 81st out of 115 countries in the fraction of people who have confidence in their healthcare system, and has a lower score than countries such as India, Iran, Malawi, or Sierra Leone.
So they may not know our system, they just like theirs better than we like ours.

Sierra Leone :confused: You might want to check the methodology of that study. I suspect that the residents of Sierra Leone would LOVE our system if they knew about it.

In Life expectancy, SL ranks 215 out of 221 countries in this list.

List of countries by life expectancy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

rank/overall/M/F

215 Sierra Leone 40.58 38.36 42.87

Sierra Leone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Print media is not widely read in Sierra Leone, especially outside Freetown, partially due to the low levels of literacy in the country.[69]

GDP (PPP) 2008 estimate
- Total $4.266 billion[2]
- Per capita $724[2]

Sierra Leone is the lowest ranked country on the Human Development Index and seventh lowest on the Human Poverty Index,[14] suffering from endemic corruption[15] and suppression of the press.[16]


Sierra Leone Literacy - Demographics
Literacy: definition: age 15 and over can read and write English, Mende, Temne, or Arabic
total population: 35.1%
male: 46.9%
female: 24.4% (2004 est.)

Healthcare in Sierra Leone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Public health in Sierra Leone is generally poor and in 2007 the country had the highest level of child mortality in the world.

The country suffers from epidemic outbreaks of diseases including yellow fever, cholera, lassa fever and meningitis. [2]

But they are happy with their health care! :whistle: I suspect that would also like a hunk of half-rotted meat and some sanitary drinking water more than we would like our medium-rare steak that we ordered rare that got served with a Cabernet instead of the Zinfandel we ordered (oh the horror - we should sue!)...

Let's get some of them on the Congressional committee, I'm sure we could learn a thing or two from the ones who can read and write! Geez, talk about cherry-picking some data...

A little balance - the US is much farther down that list than we should be, we do need reform.

-ERD50
 
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