Hi Kids

[Ponks]

I don't know a single thing about professional poker players. So if you don't mind, I have a few questions.

1) What makes a person a professional poker player?

Well, different people have different definitions on this subject, I don't think there is a common definition. The one that I accept and use is that poker is the professionals primary source of income. Other definitions that others accept is a reliance on the income from poker for living expenses, while others say playing 20+ hours a week (although this is a very poor definition)

2) What happens when 2 or more professionals meet for a game, who loses? Would the loser still be professional?

I think that you are using the word professional here in the wrong sense. If there are 2 or more professionals or good players at a full table then everyone's expectation/winrate goes down or poor players lossrate increases further to the negative. A player that has a very modest winrate will increase to a losing winrate if enough good players join the game. It's mainly just a skill level thing. You could have a table of 10 amazing players, none of which are professionals or all of which are professionals, and have no one have a postive winrate because of the rake. If two players with the same skill level (although this would be incredibly rare) play against eachother then in the short term the luckiest one will win and in the long run and the casino wins as they have the same expectation and just grind eachother down passing money back and forth as the casino slowly takes it

3) Is it customary for a professional to introduce himself before playing with strangers? "Hi, I'm Jack, and I'm a professional poker player. May I play?"

Haha, well, it's not customary. As a professional myself, I would prefer that no one knows that I am paying my rent with their money. Typically only professionals can tell if other players are professionals based on plays that the professional makes. Nearly all recreational gamblers don't pay enough attention to the plays that other players make in order to tell a mediocre player from a professional from a good player. I've been called the worst player in the world many times before.

The difference between a good player and a professional is that a professional must be a good player while a good player is not necessarily a professional.

EDIT- Also, when discussing winrate or lossrates, it is important to understand that winrates don't converge until many many hands have been played. For example my winrate is about 2 Big Bets Per 100 Hands in your average midstakes game with a standard deviation of about 17 Big Bets Per 100 Hands. As you can imagine it can take over 100,000 hands in order to get an accurate representation of your winrate.

Hope that helps.

John

EDIT- Also edited for clarity.

 

[Sam]

Thanks for the reply.

So you made 175K part time in 2.5 years, while going full time to college. That's around 70K a year. If you were to continue this career full time (now that you are out of college), you could easily bring in 100K or more a year. My question, again, is why are you looking for a job? You already have one that you're good at, one that you enjoy.

Gambling is not limited to the USA. It's everywhere, so the recent bill does not make any difference, does it?

You mention and emphasize skill level, but say nothing about luck. In your professional opinion, what percentage do you attribute to luck?

 

[Ponks]

So you made 175K part time in 2.5 years, while going full time to college. That's around 70K a year. If you were to continue this career full time (now that you are out of college), you could easily bring in 100K or more a year. My question, again, is why are you looking for a job? You already have one that you're good at, one that you enjoy.

Well, 175k is what I have invested right now, I have paid expenses throughout these 2.5 years as well. I would say that 100k in a year will be a very difficult and an extremely stressful task considering the current state of the games. Playing poker is really not that easy, it's very hard to play your best poker day in a day out for more then 2-4 hours a day. Every decision that you make is of critical importance. Try to keep your mind straight after losing $500 in a hand, $3,000 in a day, $10,000 in a week. It eats you up inside and makes you question your abilities. You have to constantly be studying the game and be able to adapt to different situations and different styles of players. I have learned a great deal about managing stress from poker, but I am anxious to move on. There are other things that I enjoy doing more then poker.

Gambling is not limited to the USA. It's everywhere, so the recent bill does not make any difference, does it?

Well, sure it does. 80% of the playing force is gone, and the best site to play at is no longer open to American customers anymore. Game selection has gone down the tube.

You mention and emphasize skill level, but say nothing about luck. In your professional opinion, what percentage do you attribute to luck?

This question depends entirely on the time frame that we are talking about. If we are talking about 1 hand were both players go allin before any cards are seen, it is 100% luck as you have no control over when you get your money in and with what odds and both players are 50/50 to win. Over the course of 250,000 hands there is very little luck as over the course of 250,000 hands you'll have an incredible amount of opportunities to get your money in with incredible odds. In my experiences I strived to play approximately 30,000 hands a month and over the course of playing professionally I have not had a losing month, although some months were very close.

EDIT- There is a common phrase among professionals which is "Poker is an hard way to make an easy living." Also, it's not like I am going to completely quit playing poker altogether. The games during the afternoon are much more difficult because there are less recreational players during the afternoon so I will be able to play after work when the games are better. I will also plan to drop down in stakes a little and still likely will be able to make atleast $1-3k a month from poker.

John

 

[Sam]

Interesting. Thanks.

 

[sgeeeee]

. . . In my experiences I strived to play approximately 30,000 hands a month and over the course of playing professionally I have not had a losing month, although some months were very close. . .

Is this correct? 1000 hands a day? And you were doing this part-time? If each hand took 30 seconds, you would spend over 8 hours a day.

 

[Ponks]

Is this correct? 1000 hands a day? And you were doing this part-time? If each hand took 30 seconds, you would spend over 8 hours a day.

Well, I play anywhere from 4-6 tables at the same time. You can get approximately 90 hands/per/table playing at 6-max limit tables. So, it's about 2.5 hours a day.

John

 

[astromeria]

I am speechless with amazement!

I suggest you find a field where your phenomenal memory and ability to make quick decisions under stress would be an advantage. Air Force test pilot? trial lawyer? salesman? short-order cook? NYSE pit trader? crocodile hunter? snake charmer? politician?!

 

[Ponks]

I am speechless with amazement!

I suggest you find a field where your phenomenal memory and ability to make quick decisions under stress would be an advantage. Air Force test pilot? trial lawyer? salesman? short-order cook? NYSE pit trader? crocodile hunter? snake charmer? politician?!

LOL, well it's not really that hard. Most of the time it's just fold, fold, fold. I used to play a lot of internet computer games so I have very fast hand speed which helps out as well. Most of the time you're able to play a hand straight through with minimal or no thinking on other tables to effect your concentration on the main table. There are many other poker players I know that do the same thing. I've actually played as many as 12 tables at once without even coming close to missing a turn on a table. I'm sure with time all of you here could do it as well. I have read some books on daytrading and am interested in it, although it seems pretty hard to get started and would also be a huge time committment to dedicate myself to that. My roommate at school worked at the chicago board of trade and I have also thought about getting into that as the guy who mentored him has been there for 20 years abouts and he would be willing to work with me.

Other then that, sign me up to be the next crocodile hunter

John

 

[sgeeeee]

Well, I play anywhere from 4-6 tables at the same time. You can get approximately 90 hands/per/table playing at 6-max limit tables. So, it's about 2.5 hours a day.

John

That still has to work out to less than 1 minute per hand. Sounds more like a video game than poker.

I would not reccommend mentioning this practice to potential employers for a number of reasons. Many employers might question the quality of your formal degree and your dedication to learning if they found out you played a thousand hands of poker every day while going to school. They might also worry that you have a gambling problem. If they believe you really made $170k in 2.5 years doing this, they would probably worry that the salary they would offer you might not keep you interested in your job. Every employer is different, but I know how the companies I used to work for would view this.

I don't know too many people with a BA in psychology who would come out of school and make the kind of money you mention. In fact, I know several who couldn't find work at all. Maybe the bachelor's liberal arts graduate today experiences a different reality than when I was in college, but I can't help but think you may be dissappointed is the job market available to you based on your formal education. You may be better off as an entrepenuer. I wish you good luck.

 

[Nords]

I have read some books on daytrading and am interested in it, although it seems pretty hard to get started and would also be a huge time committment to dedicate myself to that. My roommate at school worked at the chicago board of trade and I have also thought about getting into that as the guy who mentored him has been there for 20 years abouts and he would be willing to work with me.

The two best books I've read about living the daytrader life are "How I Trade For A Living" by Gary Smith (same name as the celebrity, different guy) and Marcel Link's "High Probability Trading". Gary's description of his "typical day" in particular will make you wonder whether it's better to get a real life.

That still has to work out to less than 1 minute per hand. Sounds more like a video game than poker.
I would not reccommend mentioning this practice to potential employers for a number of reasons. Many employers might question the quality of your formal degree and your dedication to learning if they found out you played a thousand hands of poker every day while going to school. They might also worry that you have a gambling problem. If they believe you really made $170k in 2.5 years doing this, they would probably worry that the salary they would offer you might not keep you interested in your job. Every employer is different, but I know how the companies I used to work for would view this.

Why, SG, it sounds like you're jealous!

Brokerage houses and Silicon Valley video startups would eat this stuff up during an interview. They want those non-linear out-of-the-box thinkers...

 

[sgeeeee]

. . . Why, SG, it sounds like you're jealous!

Growing skeptical maybe, but not jealous at all. Heck, I don't even play poker. I never enjoyed it.

Brokerage houses and Silicon Valley video startups would eat this stuff up during an interview. They want those non-linear out-of-the-box thinkers...

That may be. I would be surprised if that were really true, but I have no experience with hiring practices of brokerage houses and Silicon Valley video startups. I have worked and consulted for start-ups and large companies in the wireless area.

 

[Ponks]

That still has to work out to less than 1 minute per hand. Sounds more like a video game than poker.

Yes, it's about 90 hands/hour/table, mistyped a little in my previous response. It's about 6 hands per minute while playing 4 tables, and I fold approximately 30% of the hands at a 6 person table without even seeing the flop.

I would not reccommend mentioning this practice to potential employers for a number of reasons. Many employers might question the quality of your formal degree and your dedication to learning if they found out you played a thousand hands of poker every day while going to school. They might also worry that you have a gambling problem. If they believe you really made $170k in 2.5 years doing this, they would probably worry that the salary they would offer you might not keep you interested in your job. Every employer is different, but I know how the companies I used to work for would view this.

I wasn't planning on telling any employers about this unless it was a trading type job at a company that valued the skills of poker players.

I don't know too many people with a BA in psychology who would come out of school and make the kind of money you mention. In fact, I know several who couldn't find work at all. Maybe the bachelor's liberal arts graduate today experiences a different reality than when I was in college, but I can't help but think you may be dissappointed is the job market available to you based on your formal education. You may be better off as an entrepenuer. I wish you good luck.

I'm not sure where I type that my expectations are high in terms of salary or even being able to find a job! I certainly don't expect to make anything near what I was making in poker. Not being worried about being able to find a job right away does not translate into expecting to find a job right away. In my original post I even typed that students in the school of business have many advantages over a student in liberal arts & sciences. I would be extremely happy making 40k/year starting out of college especially if it was a job that I enjoyed or would help lead to a job that I enjoyed.

John

 

[Ponks]

The two best books I've read about living the daytrader life are "How I Trade For A Living" by Gary Smith (same name as the celebrity, different guy) and Marcel Link's "High Probability Trading". Gary's description of his "typical day" in particular will make you wonder whether it's better to get a real life.
Why, SG, it sounds like you're jealous!

Brokerage houses and Silicon Valley video startups would eat this stuff up during an interview. They want those non-linear out-of-the-box thinkers...

Hey Nords,

Thanks for the book recommendations, I'm always interested in reading quality books and always enjoy a good recommendation. So far I have read "Tools and Tactics for the Master Day Trader" by Oliver Velez & Greg Carpa and I've started "The Master Swing Trader" by Alan S. Farley, although I haven't finished this one yet, too many other books that I want to read! These books were both recommended to me by other poker players that also day-trade during the day. Last year I had ambitions of day-trading during the morning/afternoon while the poker games were poor and then playing poker at night. Right now though, it will take quite some time to accumulate $50k that I would require myself to have in order to get into day-trading. Have you read either of these books above? What did you think? Have you day traded at all? If so, what did you think? How steep is the learning curve?

John

 

[sgeeeee]

. . .
I wasn't planning on telling any employers about this unless it was a trading type job at a company that valued the skills of poker players.

I'm not sure where I type that my expectations are high in terms of salary or even being able to find a job! I certainly don't expect to make anything near what I was making in poker. Not being worried about being able to find a job right away does not translate into expecting to find a job right away. In my original post I even typed that students in the school of business have many advantages over a student in liberal arts & sciences. I would be extremely happy making 40k/year starting out of college especially if it was a job that I enjoyed or would help lead to a job that I enjoyed.

John

I didn't mean to sound critical (or as Nords suggested, jealous). My advice was well intentioned and so are my wishes for good luck.

 

[Ponks]

I didn't mean to sound critical (or as Nords suggested, jealous). My advice was well intentioned and so are my wishes for good luck.

Yes, I believe your advice is well intentioned as well. You make some good points and I probably should have just left it at that. I just wanted to clarify that I do have reasonable expectations of myself.

Thanks for the kind wishes. Everyone could use some luck in their lives.

Best of luck to you as well.

John

 

[Nords]

Have you read either of these books above? What did you think? Have you day traded at all? If so, what did you think? How steep is the learning curve?

I only recommend the books I've read, and even then not all of them-- so you don't have to waste your time reading "The 21 Irrefutable Truths of Trading"... if you're only going to read two books on trading then these are the ones.

Gary's book is a great tutorial of what not to do as a day trader-- don't buy the expensive systems, don't buy the special training or seminars, don't buy anything from a vendor period. He did it all with mutual funds in a brokerage IRA account while videotaping/watching CNBC and the online Reuters news feed.

He's very realistic about indicators, how they work, and what to do when they stop working (and they will stop working). He has the cast-iron brass-plated cojones that enabled him to examine a small fund, decide that it'd go up for a while, and sink his entire account into that one position. His goal was to avoid losing months if only by a dollar or two. He's semi-ER'd now but you might still see him posting at FundVision.com or TradersTalk. It's the most practical guide I've seen in terms of what you do between breakfast & dinner.

Marcel Link's book is the most straightforward and perhaps the most pessimistic. He expects most traders to lose $50K before they turn around. He digs right into the little details of ticks, intervals, contracts, technical indicators, and the psychology. He gives very clear explanations of some of the more arcane technicals like stochastics. He talks about when to trade and, more importantly, when not to trade. He's also more realistic about expecting returns of 10-20% per year instead of per month.

In your first year you should expect a $50K account to dip down as low as $20K before you start clicking. You'll probably end the first year down 10-20% and then start making it back in subsequent years. The day-trading (short-term) investment cycle can be pretty short & brutal (read Gary's book) and it's not for everyone. You're used to having things go against you so maybe your learning curve will be a little flatter.

I was well on the road to day-trading before I read Gary's book. I've spent a couple years trading technicals and momentum and daily positions and... well... it's work. I make money when I'm working at it, and the more I work at it the more money I make, but it's not what I want to do-- I want to spend time with my family and surf. I gradually worked my way around the entire investing spectrum back to fundamental value analysis and that's where I'm most comfortable.

But even that's still work. I've been closing out my remaining positions and plonking it all into small-cap value, international, & dividend-paying ETFs. I'm still struggling with UncleMick's testosterone-poisoned male imperative to invest in individual stocks, but in the long term I'll end up with index funds. Except for our Berkshire Hathaway stock.

And I'll turn off my personal account's shorting & margin features. This time I swear I really mean it...

 

[Ponks]

He has the cast-iron brass-plated cojones that enabled him to examine a small fund, decide that it'd go up for a while, and sink his entire account into that one position.

Sure this is brass plated cojones, but this doesn't seem wise to me. I can recall reading that you should not have more then 1-2% of your daytrading bankroll at risk in anyone one trade, although perhaps this is just in the first year. Preservation of capital is the most important in the first year the book said. Obviously the percent of your bankroll you are willing to risk should be based on the risk and percent chance of success with a little safety added in.

I'm still struggling with UncleMick's testosterone-poisoned male imperative to invest in individual stocks, but in the long term I'll end up with index funds. Except for our Berkshire Hathaway stock.

And I'll turn off my personal account's shorting & margin features. This time I swear I really mean it...

Heh, goodluck with that.

I wish that day-trading was a more realistic option for myself. With 10-20% per year, it would take quite a few years before one would actually be able to pay their expenses off the returns. I was thinking about trying it out a little this past summer, but I couldn't scrape together $50k, I just kept putting my money into my index funds. I know some poker players that are also day-traders that strive for ~1%/day and hit 300%-450% returns/year in the past, now that sounds like fun.

John

 

[macdaddy]

LOL, well it's not really that hard. Most of the time it's just fold, fold, fold. I used to play a lot of internet computer games so I have very fast hand speed which helps out as well. Most of the time you're able to play a hand straight through with minimal or no thinking on other tables to effect your concentration on the main table. There are many other poker players I know that do the same thing. I've actually played as many as 12 tables at once without even coming close to missing a turn on a table. I'm sure with time all of you here could do it as well. I have read some books on daytrading and am interested in it, although it seems pretty hard to get started and would also be a huge time committment to dedicate myself to that. My roommate at school worked at the chicago board of trade and I have also thought about getting into that as the guy who mentored him has been there for 20 years abouts and he would be willing to work with me.

Other then that, sign me up to be the next crocodile hunter

John

From what I read, you are only supposed to play AA, AK, or sometimes AQ, depending on how tight the table is. You just have to sit there and fold until you get one of those on the flop. It's having the patience to wait for one of those, and play like a 10-10, or A-10, that trips most people up.

 

[Ponks]

From what I read, you are only supposed to play AA, AK, or sometimes AQ, depending on how tight the table is. You just have to sit there and fold until you get one of those on the flop. It's having the patience to wait for one of those, and play like a 10-10, or A-10, that trips most people up.

Only playing those 2-3 hands will certainly make you a losing player. You'll get eaten up by the blinds and if you're at a table against players that have half a clue everytime you raise they'll fold. Even adding the top 10 hands is likely barely profitable at the lowest limits and you'd be leaving a ton of money on the table because you would be folding profitable hands.

I actually have my own website dedicated to teaching poker. If you are interested in learning check out http://pokermentor.net - there is a lot of good free info.

John

 

[riskadverse]

My roommate at school worked at the chicago board of trade and I have also thought about getting into that as the guy who mentored him has been there for 20 years abouts and he would be willing to work with me.

John

I would jump at this opportunity. This would teach you more about day trading than you could hope to learn any where else. From the way you describe playing your poker playing, this sounds like a perfect fit.

 

[macdaddy]

Only playing those 2-3 hands will certainly make you a losing player. You'll get eaten up by the blinds and if you're at a table against players that have half a clue everytime you raise they'll fold. Even adding the top 10 hands is likely barely profitable at the lowest limits and you'd be leaving a ton of money on the table because you would be folding profitable hands.

I actually have my own website dedicated to teaching poker. If you are interested in learning check out http://pokermentor.net - there is a lot of good free info.

John

John - that's an interesting site and a very innovative business model. Did you make much from affiliate commissions? I assume that income stream is also a victim of the new law that passed. I used to visit bonuswhores.com somewhat infrequently. I imagine whoever owns that site must be pretty pissed off at the lawmakers who pushed the new bill. I wouldn't be surprised if they were making $500k a year in affiliate commissions...

 

[Ponks]

John - that's an interesting site and a very innovative business model. Did you make much from affiliate commissions? I assume that income stream is also a victim of the new law that passed. I used to visit bonuswhores.com somewhat infrequently. I imagine whoever owns that site must be pretty pissed off at the lawmakers who pushed the new bill. I wouldn't be surprised if they were making $500k a year in affiliate commissions...

Hey Mac,

Yes, it is an interesting idea, and it works pretty well. There is one problem with the idea and that is retention of the customers. In order to help combat this we just decided that we would allow anyone to switch over to a rakeback plan whenever they wanted in order to atleast make some money off these players. We did pretty well in terms of affiliate commissions, although a lot of it was from offering rakeback. Yes, the income stream is definitely victim to the new law that passed, although maybe 20% of our clients are from overseas. We are now working with Full Tilt and Ultimate Bet and have managed to salvage some of the business. I'm not a frequent visitor of bonuswhores, but I would suspect as well that they were making $500k+/year. I know some affiliates that managed over a mil/year and bonus whores is pretty big.

John

 

[Ponks]

I would jump at this opportunity. This would teach you more about day trading than you could hope to learn any where else. From the way you describe playing your poker playing, this sounds like a perfect fit.

I think that it would teach me a lot as well. My roommate worked there for about 8 months and barely broke even in terms of profit and he's been working there as a clerk / headset operator / signal guy for 3-4 years now. After he graduates with his CPA in the spring, I don't think he will end up back at the board of trade though. His mom has been pressuring him to get a good job at an accounting firm and he's been interviewing with firms all weekend and I suspect that he will end up at one of these. Him and I have talked about getting into real estate after we both have a few years of work experience under our belts, hopefully related to the field. Who knows - I sure don't.

John

 

[laison612]

John,

If you are indeed what you say you are, you'll do very well in a Wall Street career.
But don't become a quant, earnings of even the best quants are capped (low 7 figures, admittedly still very high by normal standards). And I don't mean day trading as a Wall Street career either.

If I were you, I'd study really hard and try to get into the best MBA program in the
country. It's your sure way of getting into a major Wall Street firm. Once in the door,
your potential is almost limitless. You seem to possess intellegence, ability to reason and most importantly risk taking ability which is a highly sought after skill. People can learn the last one, but only the truly natural are good at it.

Best of luck,

HappyGoLucky

 

[Ponks]

Hey All,

I haven't posted much lately, but have been lurking nearly everyday. I'm on my Christmas break now, woohooo a month off of school, and have had a few interviews with some companies.

The first one is for an accounting type job with an excellent health-care company called Abbott. I don't really feel that the job fits what I am looking for, but it's always something to fall back on if needed. Then I had a second interview with Northwestern Mutual for a financial representative position. I really liked the way they do business in that they identify people with a problem or with a goal and then strive to help them reach that goal. I don't really want to be a salesmen of sorts, but a lot of these products are indeed "needed" by people, particularly life insurance for a couple having kids. I especially don't want to give any friends or family any poor investing advice or poor products so I'm not really sure how good of a fit I am for this job. I don't think my investing philosophy of indexing really fits so well as they have their own mutual funds to sell. However it does have it's advantages. It does seem like a great way to get started on my career and I would be able to attain some designations while working there that the company will pay for. Also, I may be able to get into a good business school through this as well. Anyone have experiences with this company? What did you think?

As for other possible jobs, I don't have anymore interviews, although Ihave sent my resume out to a few people in the past few days, and over my christmas break I will send it out to many other companies in the investing/finance department.

I was just hoping to get some advice from someone who has been there - done that. I am really torn here and unsure what to do. Only one more semester left of school, ahhh!!

John