I heard some bad news today....

[unclemick]

WHAT?


Maybe it's a southern thing, but everyone around here (well the natives anyway) eat black-eyed peas each New Years day. (For good luck)

Back in the day - money, luck and happiness - or some such.

Fried cabbage, black eyed peas and BACON! or pork for the philistines.

And being New Years on Lake Pontchartrain we had the duel of the runs(docks up north) with which neighbor had the 'best' fireworks.

With lard - or Crisco. And yes I liked the song also.

 

[aja8888]

Oh, oh...the Billie Joe thing looks like it could turn into another "What about Tesla (stock)" thread.

 

[WestUniversity]

WHAT?


Maybe it's a southern thing, but everyone around here (well the natives anyway) eat black-eyed peas each New Years day. (For good luck)

Black eyed peas for good luck and cabbage for money...

 

[Dawg52]

Well this is NOT the best time of year to be visiting. The heat index was over 100 today in south Alabama. Give me a call in the fall and we'll watch some college football and I'll make you some blackeyed peas. [emoji3]

Don't forget the cornbread.

 

[MissMolly]

But that's from the movie, ~ 10 years after the song came out, and not the view of the composer.

I mentioned I became obsessed with this song a few years back (and always was mesmerized by it, I was a young teen when it was released). I came across a site I read at the time, I like this one, he starts out with a "just the fact's ma'am" approach, what we know, what we don't know from the song - which helps keep the interpretation in check. And then he goes on to some interpretations, and some from seemingly knowledgeable people (southern roots, songwriters, historians) add their views.

The Mystery of Ode to Billie Joe (note, even he uses 'billy' in the url ( billyjoe.htm ), the more typical male spelling, but not the Title - probably for search purposes).

So as some of us have said, the beauty/genius of this song is that it provides a framework, but leaves enough unsaid that you can create a story in your mind. No one knows what 'really' happened.

As I said, I tend to reject the obvious abortion/stillborn/miscarriage story on 'artistic' grounds alone. It's just too obvious, and I think there are more interesting thoughts. Here are some I gathered from reading, which sparked a few of my own, but first, why there are also some story-line holes in the abortion/stillborn/miscarriage story:

The narrator (no name given, other than in the draft, so I'll just say "she"/"her") was working in the fields that AM as if nothing happened. It was just "another sleepy, dusty, Delta day ". If she had gone through an abortion/stillborn/miscarriage, would she be working the fields like nothing happened? And her Mother doesn't note the loss of appetite until after the news about Billy Joe is heard. Momma was 'cooking all morning', expecting hearty appetites from all. And would they do such a taboo thing in broad daylight, for someone like the Preacher to see? I think it would have been hidden away.

Now here are some interesting (IMO) ideas:

A) There was some speculation that 'she' pushed Billy Joe off the bridge(!) after an argument. OK, seems far fetched, but hey, maybe they didn't find the body until later, and assumed he jumped that day? I don't give this much credence, she would have been affected by this, not just after she "heard the news". But it is creative, and not totally implausible. Further speculation was that this is what the preacher observed, and was trying to appeal to "her" conscience to come forward and confess? Pretty diabolical, no?

B) Here's one I hadn't considered, and find rather interesting - What if Billy Joe was suffering depression, not related to any romantic relationship with "her"? It kind of fits, mental illness was even more hidden away than now, "she" could have just been friendly with Billy Joe, sensed his darkness, was trying to help him, and was really affected, as a close friend, not a lover, by his taking his own life. I'm impressed with this one.

C) Another I had not thought of, that I think is along the lines of abortion/stillborn/miscarriage, but fits better IMO. What if what they were throwing off the bridge was blood-stained clothing from her losing her virginity to Billy Joe? That would be something to hide, in a religious community of the time, and especially since her Father didn't think much of Billy Joe. Interesting, no? I guess it doesn't go so far as to explain Billy Joe's apparent suicide though? But maybe that is related more to general depression?

D) I never really thought about this, but the only observer/reporter of "something being thrown off the bridge" is the "nice young Preacher, Brother Tom". Hmmmm? This opens up a lot of paths, including what I outlined in 'A". Let's see...

How about... she has become romantically involved with the Preacher and he has asked her (or they agreed) that she was going to break off her relationship with Billy Joe? Adding in the comment of them "throwing something off the bridge" could be an acknowledgement/metaphor that they ended their relationship. But of course, she is still affected by Billy Joe's apparent suicide.

I've always found the specific phrase to be interesting, but have not seen comments on it... maybe it means nothing, just the words that fit, but the Preacher says he "saw a girl that looked a lot like you", but he has no problem recognizing Billy Joe! Is he trying to provide some cover for her? By keeping it vague, later she could say, no, that wasn't me? IS he trying to send her a message?

Or it was the Preacher who pushed Billy Joe off the bridge? Hmmm, maybe it was a jealous argument, maybe Billy Joe was trying to rape 'her', and the Preacher defended her, but thought it better to cover it up. Or the Preacher broke it up, and Billy Joe committed suicide out of shame (how could he face the Preacher at Church?)?

That's a lot of things to draw from a few verses, which is why I feel the song is magical.

OK, I told you I was obsessed!

-ERD50

LOL. Indeed you are. Far be it from me to question an expert but just to be clear, the thing about the doll was from novel, not the movie. It was never made clear in the movie what it was. And speculation continues to this day

 

[MuirWannabe]

Maybe it was his draft card. He offed himself cause he didn’t want to go to Nam.

 

[ERD50]

LOL. Indeed you are. Far be it from me to question an expert but just to be clear, the thing about the doll was from novel, not the movie. It was never made clear in the movie what it was. And speculation continues to this day

Yeah, I thought I read that the 'novel' was just the screenplay/script for the movie? I'll need to check on that, I know my obsession won't let me just let it sit there!

Maybe it was his draft card. He offed himself cause he didn’t want to go to Nam.

Yes, there's been some speculation on that as well. Not unreasonable, the timing is right.

Related to that, on youtube there is a video of Bobbie Gentry performing Ode to Billie Joe for some servicemen in a hospital. It's a terrible version of the song, played upbeat with a band - but I guess that makes sense, guys recuperating don't want some depressing/introspective ballad. But the funny part is she is drop dead gorgeous, wearing those tight jeans and tight top and swaying in front of them, playing it up, and these guys are really having to work to hold it together and be respectable - I'm sure they got a talk from their CO prior. They did it, but you could read the looks in their eyes!

Oh, oh...the Billie Joe thing looks like it could turn into another "What about Tesla (stock)" thread.

Over the song/movie/novel/book, or over black-eyed peas?

For the record, I've never had black eyed peas, but since they included some form of smoked pork, I'd sure be up for trying them. I do like grits (but just 'like', not crazy about), and mustard/collard greens, so that should fit.

-ERD50

 

[Clone]

All I know about black eyed peas was that the cook in Georgia at the factory said something along the lines of "you eat them black eyed peas and those beans, you gonna fart like a bulldog!" I am not sure about the beans, it could have been chard or some other greens. But she was warning us 2 northern boys that our innards were going to rebel!

 

[Clone]

In other news-

Was the dark of the moon on the sixth of June in a Kenworth.......

 

[aja8888]

Over the song/movie/novel/book, or over black-eyed peas?

For the record, I've never had black eyed peas, but since they included some form of smoked pork, I'd sure be up for trying them. I do like grits (but just 'like', not crazy about), and mustard/collard greens, so that should fit.

-ERD50

The song.

I never had black eyed peas until i moved to Texas in 1992 and met and married DW a few years later. She made them for our first New Years Eve together and I almost spit them out.....to me, they are like eating dirt. But, she, being a midwesterner, didn't add the SMOKED PORK!

 

[MuirWannabe]

Time for black eyed peas again. It’s another sleepy, dusty, delta day.

 

[ERD50]

Time for black eyed peas again. It’s another sleepy, dusty, delta day.

Wow. Thanks for the reminder - I can't believe this slipped by me till now (see my earlier posts about my obsession with this song).

A true classic, timeless. Well, look at this line:

"There was a virus going 'round; papa caught it, and he died last spring"

"Fil" did an analysis of this song/performance in the mean time. No mention of black eyed peas in the analysis though:

-ERD50

 

[MuirWannabe]

You are obsessed. But she is a looker. And the song is timeless as you say.

I thought about that virus line, but doubt it was Covid related [emoji4].

Besides being a great story with just enough details to drive you crazy, her voice is so smoky. I think that’s a big part of the secret sauce on this.

 

[CaptTom]

Funny, the song came on today in the truck, and for the millionth time I wondered what was thrown off the bridge.

I also noted some of the inconsistencies mentioned last year in this post, which I'd either forgotten or missed the first time around. I, too, always assumed it was an aborted fetus they threw off the bridge.

My new observation today was around the term "dinner." It means "lunch" in the South, but "supper" in many Northern US regions. At first, it's obviously lunch, since they came in from the morning work in the fields, and Momma had been cooking all morning. But later, that nice young preacher is coming over for dinner Sunday night.

Still a great song. Just like Joan Baez' The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down, in which she butchered the lyrics (e.g.; "so much" cavalry instead of "Stoneman's".) And how could the wife say "there goes Robert E. Lee"? Or was it "the Robert E. Lee"? But that doesn't really work, either. Gotta love a song with some mystery!

 

[W2R]

My new observation today was around the term "dinner." It means "lunch" in the South, but "supper" in many Northern US regions. At first, it's obviously lunch, since they came in from the morning work in the fields, and Momma had been cooking all morning. But later, that nice young preacher is coming over for dinner Sunday night.

Just to add some confusion, my mother always told me that dinner was the larger meal of the day, whether that was at noon or in the evening. The other meal was lunch or supper.

Still a great song. Just like Joan Baez' The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down, in which she butchered the lyrics (e.g.; "so much" cavalry instead of "Stoneman's".) And how could the wife say "there goes Robert E. Lee"? Or was it "the Robert E. Lee"? But that doesn't really work, either. Gotta love a song with some mystery!

The Robert E. Lee was a steamboat, built in 1866. So maybe that was it.

According to Wikipedia,

The Baez recording had some changes in the lyrics.[14] Baez later told Rolling Stone's Kurt Loder that she initially learned the song by listening to the recording on the Band's album, and had never seen the printed lyrics at the time she recorded it, and thus sang the lyrics as she had (mis)heard them. In more recent years in her concerts, Baez has performed the song as originally written by Robertson.[15]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Night_They_Drove_Old_Dixie_Down

 

[CaptTom]

Just to add some confusion, my mother always told me that dinner was the larger meal of the day, whether that was at noon or in the evening. The other meal was lunch or supper.

I assumed that was it, but it still struck me that the two were seen talking "after church last Sunday night." But the preacher was invited to "dinner" on Sunday. Just how long is this church service? Around here Sunday services usually break up around lunch ("Sunday dinner") time, which makes sense. Not at night (supper time.) That's the line which doesn't fit. Of course, "Sunday afternoon" wouldn't rhyme with "don't seem right."

The Robert E. Lee was a steamboat, built in 1866. So maybe that was it.

I'd seen that suggestion, but somewhere I read that it didn't work, because either the time frame or location of the steamboat vs. the song didn't fit. Can't find the reference now.

However, even the Wikipedia article you linked has the following citation:

14. The Last Waltz of The Band Neil Minturn - 2005- Page 85 "be more familiar to some in Joan Baez's version. Hoskyns remarks of Baez's version: "Two years later, Joan Baez recorded a terrible version of 'Dixie' that seemed to turn Robert E. Lee into a steamboat, but it made"

Anyway, both are great songs, from two of the best vocalists who ever lived.

 

[Winemaker]

^^
Many churches have another church service on Sunday evenings well after the Sunday morning service. DMIL's church did that and also had a Wednesday evening service, and yes, it was well below the Mason Dixon line.

 

[audreyh1]

Sunday dinner was a large meal at midday after church.

Dinner was an evening meal the other nights of the week as that was the larger meal of the day, and we had lunch at midday those days.

Supper was an evening meal, lighter as opposed to dinner. I guess we had supper on Sunday evenings.

 

[CaptTom]

OK, Let's just stipulate that "she" (the narrator) went to the late service last Sunday, but that the young preacher is coming over for the mid-day meal after the early service this coming Sunday. This way, we've preserved the integrity of the lyrics AND it still rhymes.

I think I've spent way too much time on this already. But I still like the song.

 

[Winemaker]

^^Sure beats talking about the lack of toilet paper, the high price of meat and wearing a mask,though.

 

[CaptTom]

^^Sure beats talking about the lack of toilet paper, the high price of meat and wearing a mask,though.

OK, then let's keep going...

Another historical song: Gordon Lightfoot's The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald. The lyrics put you right there in the midst of the tragedy.

I do take exception to the line "the captain wired in..." because, let's face it, there were no telegraph wires involved. And there's another option about the cause of the wreck which has been gaining traction lately, beyond what's in the lyrics. They may have simply misjudged their course and grounded on a charted reef. But like the other two, it's still a good song.

 

[bclover]

WHAT?


Maybe it's a southern thing, but everyone around here (well the natives anyway) eat black-eyed peas each New Years day. (For good luck)

Yep also an African American tradition (not surprising most have southern roots).

we never liked them but always, always had a pot on NY day.

 

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by W2R View Post
The Robert E. Lee was a steamboat, built in 1866. So maybe that was it.

I'd seen that suggestion, but somewhere I read that it didn't work, because either the time frame or location of the steamboat vs. the song didn't fit. Can't find the reference now.

However, even the Wikipedia article you linked has the following citation:



Anyway, both are great songs, from two of the best vocalists who ever lived.

Oh boy, another song to feed my obsessions!

And it has a date ref too, " By May the tenth, Richmond had fell,". Richmond fell earlier, but I think this is a bit of poetic license, with Richmond representing the Confederacy, so it was the Confederacy that fell "by" May 10 (not "on" May 10)...

Lots more here: Peter Viney: The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down

From the day Richmond had fell (Confederates abandoned the town on April 2 and Federals occupied it on the 3rd) up until May 10, the various organized Confederate forces continued to surrender. By May 10, most if not all had accepted their paroles.

Before I researched it, I always heard it (in the Band original) as "there goes the Robert E. Lee", and imagined the "Robert E. Lee" to be a train, the best train in the South? To me, that matched with " But they should never have taken the very best."

To be fair to Baez, on some live versions Levon gets pretty close to adding a 'the'. Even as early as Rock of Ages it sounds like: There goes -a Robert E. Lee. The question of whether it's "the" Robert E. Lee (a steamboat, or even an army unit with that name) or the General himself has caused some discussion, ...

… the fact that Robert E Lee was never in Tennessee after the war doesn't mean that people didn't think they saw him. People in the South after the war constantly thought they saw Lincoln and General Lee, even though they couldn't have, and it would be passed down to generations even though it was historically incorrect.

Even if it was ref to the steamboat, which was pointed out, could not be historically correct, I'm fine with some poetic license - it gets the point across w/o destroying anything, even if not factually correct. I don't see any harm in it.

I was familiar with, and liked, the Baez version before I ever heard the original. When I heard The Band do it, I was thinking, "Wow, they just drag this out, they slow wa-a-a-a-ay down and lag w-a-a-a-ay behind the beat as they enter the chorus. This is weird". But then, I listened a few more times, and realized how that added a real heft and weight (no pun intended) to the song. After that, I couldn't stand Baez's version, it seemed all sing-y-song-y and trivial.

and I still hear it as "so much Cavalry came", wasn't familiar with "Stoneman's cavalry".

The Band - they've really created some masterpieces of "Americana" (Acadian Driftwood and King Harvest being two of my favs).

edit- I should mark my calendar "It was the third of September ".... I still think "all he left us was a loan" is more clever and fitting than what appears to be the official (though that doesn't mean it is 'correct') version, "all he left us was alone". He was MIA as a Father, they were always "left alone", even before his death. Leaving them "a loan" would just be salt in the wound, adding to their misery, he messes them up even in death - far more poetic, IMO.

Oh well, we can pick this up in September...

-ERD50

 

[Winemaker]

I looking forward to our discussion to our discussion of "American Pie".

I can't blame Baez for her misinterpretation of words in some of my favorite songs. I remember hearing "lunatic hound" when it was "blue tic hound" in Charlie Daniel's tune "Country Boy".

 

[Montecfo]

Ok yeah love the black eyes peas, that's good eatin'.

But what was the "news about Billy Joe"? Any locals provide color?

(I do recall what the news was as portrayed in movie of same name). No cheating.

Edited to say: oh..just a year too late. Must have missed this great thread the first time.