Income Harvesting Strategy paper (accounts or buckets?)

Charlie, although I'm a little more than 10 years behind you I'm in complete agreement. I want to keep my investment strategy simple enough that it can be easily managed by my wife, who has little interest in things financial. At 62, I have 40% of our IRA's in Wellesley and will likely increase that amount over time.
 
Sounds like a good plan Charlie.

I've tried to simplify our investments to the point where a page of instructions that explains what to do is sufficient.

Throw in the vanguard asset management services and she's good to go.

I've also given her the emails of a few people here just in case she gets stuck.
 
Guys, isn't this attitude a bit demeaning to our spouses? After all, they were smart enough to rescue us from a lifetime of bachelorhood. And surely they're smart enough to figure out how to get along without us. So I suspect that, as much as it deflates our delicate egos, they've probably [-]suckered us[/-] acquired the potential to manage their finances too.

Unless we're hiding something from our spouses, at some point our earnest financial-management explanations have convinced them that we've put together a system so simple that even a [-]guy[/-] caveman could do it. Or else, after listening to us for a few minutes, they've decided that what we say is irrelevant-- no matter how sophisticated we think we are, after we're dead they're going to cash out and start over.

I keep the same paper-napkin explanation in our "If we wake up dead" file. Once in a while I'll show her a Quicken screen or a piechart. But she says she'll figure it out, and it's not as if I'll be around to [-]kvetch kibitz[/-] care whether or not she's following my helpful suggestions.

I think she's planning to read the board for advice on annuities and whether she should pay off the mortgage...
 
At 74, the thing I am beginning to fear most is leaving my wife Lyn, who goes glassy eyed on financial matters, with a complicated portfolio to manage.

Good point, and maybe folks a lot younger should be thinking about that, too. Wellesley seems like a good choice. Also interesting, if they prove themselves over the next 3-4 years, woud be the managed payout funds from Vanguard, especially the middle or income focused flavors. They would pay well (5-7%), self-annuitize a bit during bad years, and likely leave something nice for the heirs.
 
Guys, isn't this attitude a bit demeaning to our spouses?

Nope. My wife has no interest in anything other than "Can I buy this?" and "Do we still have money?" (asked after we did the major renovations).

My answer: "we do until we dont!".

To be fair, I'd have very little luck intubating someone who wasnt breathing on their own, or adjusting their blood oxygen level.

Its not a burden I'd like her to have to take on shortly after my untimely demise.
 
Guys, isn't this attitude a bit demeaning to our spouses? After all, they were smart enough to rescue us from a lifetime of bachelorhood. And surely they're smart enough to figure out how to get along without us. So I suspect that, as much as it deflates our delicate egos, they've probably [-]suckered us[/-] acquired the potential to manage their finances too.

...

I'm with you, except for the 2nd sentence. That is about the only evidence that I have in almost thirty years of marriage that makes me question my wife's good judgement ;)

She isn't really interested in our investments but she does have an MBA so I suspect that she'll figure it out if she needs to.

My mom didn't have a clue when my dad passed away but she was still working and she did have a couple of years to figure things out before she retired. Fifteen years later her church asked her to give a lecture to the church widows on money management.

MB
 
To be fair, I'd have very little luck intubating someone who wasnt breathing on their own, or adjusting their blood oxygen level.
Its not a burden I'd like her to have to take on shortly after my untimely demise.
Well, that's my point. Hopefully all our investments can remain stable and on autopilot long enough for our smart widows to figure them out, or to institute their own system.

Hence there's no need for them to waste their time listening to our well-meaning tutorials, and no need for us to agonize over setting them up for failure.

And if we did have some sort of portfolio that we couldn't turn our backs on for a few weeks or months, what kind of [-]Azanon[/-] a miserable life must that be?

When I tell my spouse how many gazillions up or down we are that week (of course with the caveat that it really doesn't mean anything until we sell), she just wants to know if we can still order pizza on Friday night...
 
Oh our portfolio would do nicely on its own for 10 years.

Its the 9,000,000 people who would come out of the woodwork to help her with managing the money that are the problem.

It'd pretty much be the same situation as what happens when someone wins the lottery.
 
Oh ZING. You're on tonight!

Actually my instructions to her will effectively prevent her from running off with the pool boy to cabo san lucas. Well, for a couple of months anyhow.
 
Actually my instructions to her will effectively prevent her from running off with the pool boy to cabo san lucas. Well, for a couple of months anyhow.
As far as you know. You'll be dead, remember? And she'll be pulling down her own pension someday, right?

Last week my spouse was watching a PBS documentary on longevity. One of the study groups was a bunch of Ashkenazi Jews who all grew up in the same neighborhood of the Bronx. (As my father-in-law says, if you don't know that the Bronx has more than one neighborhood then you don't know the Bronx.) All of them were in their 11th decade and they all looked like they were 75 years old-- 80 tops. Many of them still had full heads of their own hair.

It turns out that they're all her distant aunties & uncles. So my spouse plans to wear out more than one pool boy after I'm gone, and we don't even have a pool.
 
Do not dis Mr. Mom. I stayed home with our daughter after she was born - eventually nat'l merit scholar, 3.9 gpa in college, and now in law school. All due to my skilled early care :). Or as I told my friends it's just like raising a puppy - keep food in front and clean up after. I bet I can still do cloth diapers faster than anyone on this board.
 
If I recall correctly, Guytons paper used a 1973-2000? time period. Finding higher withdrawals is easier when going from a low market through the biggest bull ever. If you had money to start, is was all good thereafter.



The more comlicated the scheme, the less believable it is.
 
To be fair, the data firecalc and many other calculators uses is similarly flawed. It starts back in the 1870's, right after the civil war was over and really one of the worst times from an economy standpoint and investment price standpoint. It was pretty much all upside from there.

Well made point. Most of the "historical data" is moot. The two bad times are the depression era and the 64-74 time period. If your plan makes it through those, you're good. If it doesnt, then your plan wont survive a serious financial crisis.

And we'll have one. Sooner or later.
 
My simple plan, that my wife an continue to use -

Divide after tax fixed pensions and mixed portfolios annually over IRS life expectancy.
Spend up to the lesser of the new division or the previoue annual division plus inflation.
Portfolio balance in excess of spending is used as a reserve for large purchases and emergencies.

Inflation adjusted if portfolio makes it so, reacts to valuation changes, can set cash flow match withdrawals or use a higher equity portfolio if desired, more consistent with out of sample non-US history.
 
I still contend that [Net assets in withdrawal year]/[years of life expectancy in withdrawal year] is better than all these other complicated schemes.

One refinement I would make is to say the above is the absolute limit on what you may spend, but there should be a second softer barrier, the amount you need to live reasonably comfortably. In any year where the hard barrier is above the soft, it then becomes a matter to be judged at the time whether to let a surplus build up as a safety reserve or spend the some of the difference on one-off items.

Adopting the refinement helps iron out one weakness, that at very old ages (mid-nineties) income tended to drop below the long term average.

An additional refinement that also works to iron out that problem is to introduce the effect of putting the assets inside a fair annuity. By "fair annuity" I mean a theoretical one where the provider makes no profit and charges nothing for administration, and at the end of each year each suriving annuitant gets a mortality bonus consisting of his probability of dying in that year multiplied by his average daily investment account balance. According to my data, income from mortality bonuses on their own will exceed the hard withdrawal limit from age 89 for a man, meaning effectively no capital run-down thereafter. (Surely their must be enough retired lawyers and computer programmers on this board to set up an on-line mutual company to provide this idealised annuity?)

The last refinement, which I really don't like because it is ad hoc and inelegant, but which does seem to work well, is to reduce the denominator (life expectancy) by a fixed percentage in calculating the hard barrier. The percentage is found by using Excel Solver to minimise variation in income over the years. This has the effect of moving some of the income from later years to earlier years, which mitigates the low incomes this strategy can produce in the very early years, if the retiree is very young.
 
If I recall correctly, Guytons paper used a 1973-2000? time period. Finding higher withdrawals is easier when going from a low market through the biggest bull ever. If you had money to start, is was all good thereafter.



The more comlicated the scheme, the less believable it is.
The first Guyton paper used 1973-2004. The one I mentioned uses 1928-2004. It also uses a "stochastic approach" (Monte-Carlo).

cjking said:
I still contend that [Net assets in withdrawal year]/[years of life expectancy in withdrawal year] is better than all these other complicated schemes.
Do you have a table that shows how this would work out for an ER -say someone retiring in late 40s / early 50s with a $1M portfolio? It would be helpful to see that the percentages start out being. Thank you.
 
Do you have a table that shows how this would work out for an ER -say someone retiring in late 40s / early 50s with a $1M portfolio? It would be helpful to see that the percentages start out being. Thank you.

According to this table

Actuarial Life Table

life expectancy at 50 for a male is 28.46 years, so $1M/28.46 gives an income of $35,137. i.e. a 3.5% withdrawal rate.
 
I still contend that [Net assets in withdrawal year]/[years of life expectancy in withdrawal year] is better than all these other complicated schemes.

I take it back, I don't like this strategy any more. Looking at the curve of incomes produced with volatility removed and returns in a sensible range, the curve produced by the basic principle is to far from flat. The number of refinements required to fix this are to many.
 
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