Interesting PEW Poll

[pb4uski]

That is hillarious.

About a year ago my 82 yo uncle, who still mows his own lawn despite a NW that is twice mine or more, slipped off of his new riding lawn mower and almost lost his hand.... miraculously, he had successful surgery and recovered fully over 3-6 months, but despite my harping on him to hire it out (he has a hilly lawn) and that experience he still mows his own lawn... drives me crazy.

 

[skipro33]

I played with the income #'s. For the Sacramento region, 2 people in the household, the middle income is from $38,000 to $112,000. Below and above those incomes it deems as lower or upper incomes.


I can't see how that's useful info. If I were to be forced to live on $38,000 a year, I doubt I'd consider myself and DW as middle income. We'd be pinching pennies, cutting coupons and generally not enjoying the freedom of retirement.

With $112,000 a year, I'd be hard pressed to figure out how to spend it without just buying stuff for others or otherwise giving it away. Our current gross income is $86,000. We do what we want, when we want and do not ever feel a money pinch.

Wow; to cut our income by almost $50,000 a year and call it middle is just not accurate. I have no idea how two could live if combined total income averaged $18.50 hourly wage.

 

[Drake3287]

The interesting thing is that it doesn't take into account your net worth, only your yearly income. It clearly shows me as middle income but once my net worth is added it would greatly change things not to mention no longer having a mortgage.

You could be a retired millionaire and still be middle class according to this calculator.

 

[calmloki]

Reminded me of a neighbor we had years ago, the CFO of a medium size company. A very down to earth guy and a good neighbor. One weekend he was mowing the lawn of an elderly neighbor after doing his own lawn, when a newcomer to the street drove by and stopped next to him.

The newcomer didn't bother introducing himself, just asked what my friend's rate was for lawn work. He just smiled and said "You couldn't afford it."

The new guy got very offended and drove off without another word. Later on, he found out who he had been talking to and was so embarrassed he never spoke to him again. My friend and I thought it was hilarious.

Some decades ago we were staying at Two Bunch Palms in Desert Hot Springs. That is a hoity-toity place favored by Hollywood types, but we had a discounted rate because the Gal's sister worked there as a masseuse. As we were sitting in one of the many hot springs one night some of the other guests were discussing the Important Positions they held and the Important People they hung with. Got around to me and I just told the truth - I fixed toilets for a living. Didn't expand on the other things a land baron does. Kinda tickled me the way the hot tub crew gave me a bit more leg room...

 

[NW-Bound]

When I was working I was just below C-suite and while mowing my lawn on my riding lawn mower I often wondered whether our CEO and CFO mowed their own lawns... I suspect not but I never remembered to aks them. I still mow mine but admit to thinking about outsourcing it.

In the pre-2000 days, my neighbor placed a big bet on Intel by buying more than $100K of option (did not tell me exactly how much). His gain was 10x.

Both husband and wife retired early right then and there, and sold the house to move to a much classier subdivision a couple of miles away.

We went visit them to see their new abode. He said that he felt odd doing his own yard work, because none of their neighbors did that.

Have not seen them in 2 decades to see how they are doing now or still living there. I do envy their 1-1/2 acre lot. Hard to get that in a metropolitan area. I would have land to have a big ground solar installation. None of this puny rooftop solar setup. Their home is somewhere between $2M to $3M now.

 

[audreyh1]

Reminded me of a neighbor we had years ago, the CFO of a medium size company. A very down to earth guy and a good neighbor. One weekend he was mowing the lawn of an elderly neighbor after doing his own lawn, when a newcomer to the street drove by and stopped next to him.

The newcomer didn't bother introducing himself, just asked what my friend's rate was for lawn work. He just smiled and said "You couldn't afford it."

The new guy got very offended and drove off without another word. Later on, he found out who he had been talking to and was so embarrassed he never spoke to him again. My friend and I thought it was hilarious.

That is indeed very funny!

 

[audreyh1]

When I was working I was just below C-suite and while mowing my lawn on my riding lawn mower I often wondered whether our CEO and CFO mowed their own lawns... I suspect not but I never remembered to aks them. I still mow mine but admit to thinking about outsourcing it.

We hired a landscape company for Dad’s farm house. Large area, $175 a month. Dad insisted on doing it himself while he lived there. It looks way better now, LOL!

We’re no longer interested in mowing.

 

[Taxman59]

Based on taxable income, lower. Based on sustainable spending and cash flow, solidly middle. That is why "income" is always misleading.

 

[sengsational]

Maybe instead of income, you just take investment portfolio times long term expected annual growth rate.


As to the lawn mowing, it's exercise. Why pay a gym when you have yard work

 

[NW-Bound]

As to the lawn mowing, it's exercise. Why pay a gym when you have yard work

That's what you and I think. Not the hoity-toity.

Exercise is something you do in a gym, followed by a massage. Yard work is something done by people who fear ICE police.

 

[aja8888]

Hmm... I mowed my back yard today since it was only 90 F out. Good exercise for a 74 year old. I'm in very good physical condition, though.

The front yard gets cut by the HOA lawn service.

 

[pb4uski]

Maybe instead of income, you just take investment portfolio times long term expected annual growth rate. ....

Not a bad idea... then add in any pensions and SS. With that definition, definitely upper.

 

[audreyh1]

I went by my taxable income as declared on my 1040. I consider this my official "income" and this is where the statistics on income come from anyway.

This is independent of my annual withdrawal which I use to pay taxes and then spending money.

 

[RobbieB]

solid middle, part of the 52%

 

[GravitySucks]

The interesting thing is that it doesn't take into account your net worth, only your yearly income. It clearly shows me as middle income but once my net worth is added it would greatly change things not to mention no longer having a mortgage.

You could be a retired millionaire and still be middle class according to this calculator.

I too find these miss leading.
I'm a bit proud that even though out earnings were never 80th percentile, my net worth is much closer to the 90th percentile.
I used maximum estimated safe income from Fido RIP worse case markets dieing at 92 and end up right in the middle class.

 

[Fedup]

I can be low and I can be high, it depends on my Roth conversion rate.

 

[Sunset]

While I see your point, I think for many of us that spending is more relevant than income... income can have oddities.... do we include capital gains? Roth conversions that are totally discretionary and simply moving money from one pocket to another? Non-taxable SS? How about interest and dividends from tax-deferred accounts... these are technically income and add to wealth but are not taxed and not typically included in household income as defined by the government and pollsters. Similarly, for those still working but that are super-savers do you count gross, take-home or take-home less taxable savings?

IOW to me, low, middle and upper are a reflection of lifestyle rather than income. How would one classify someone earns $500,000 a year but spends $100,000 a year.... an upper class income with a middle class lifestyle I suppose.... and it migh be vice versa for people who continually incur credit in excess and/or refinance and live above their means.

That said, just by conicidence, our income per our tax return is about what we spend annually, but that includes Roth conversions that are really just moving money from the tax-deferred pock to the tax-free pocket.

True, for income we are UPPER, but for spending we are MIDDLE to LOW

 

[Huston55]

I used spending & the result was ‘Upper’ but, I can definitely say that is not the case when compared to the houses & cars owned by our neighbors. Despite the Pew result, living among multi-million dollar houses & 6-figure automobiles makes us feel quite ‘poor’ by comparison

But, we’re very comfortable there.

 

[haha]

You could be a retired millionaire and still be middle class according to this calculator.

Oh, this is terrible!

 

[NW-Bound]

I played with the income #'s. For the Sacramento region, 2 people in the household, the middle income is from $38,000 to $112,000. Below and above those incomes it deems as lower or upper incomes.

I can't see how that's useful info. If I were to be forced to live on $38,000 a year, I doubt I'd consider myself and DW as middle income. We'd be pinching pennies, cutting coupons and generally not enjoying the freedom of retirement...

I just played the same way for my area, and saw that the middle bracket is $36K to $108K. That's a huge range!

For $36K before tax for two people, it's tough living.

 

[frayne]

Oh, this is terrible!

Not really and nothing like flying under the radar.

 

[NW-Bound]

I played with the income #'s. For the Sacramento region, 2 people in the household, the middle income is from $38,000 to $112,000. Below and above those incomes it deems as lower or upper incomes.

I can't see how that's useful info. If I were to be forced to live on $38,000 a year, I doubt I'd consider myself and DW as middle income. We'd be pinching pennies, cutting coupons and generally not enjoying the freedom of retirement...

I just played the same way for my area, and saw that the middle bracket is $36K to $108K. That's a huge range!

For $36K before tax for two people, it's tough living.

I just looked at the Quicken screen, and thought "what if I cut out this, and this, and this, can I make it on $36K?".

And the answer is yes. I would have ACA all subsidized, and if the essentials simply consist of food, electric, and water bills, and fuel for the car, etc..., then $36K is surely enough, with no travel, no major purchase, no gifts and donations, etc...

However, if I get sick and have to pay the high deductible, roof needs repair, car needs replacement, etc..., then I would be sweating bullets.

I don't know how that could be called middle class, but perhaps this is how many people live and I didn't know better. Yikes!

 

[dtbach]

Couldn't really do it as it didn't have my city as an option. Mind you, I selected Wisconsin as the state and it included Chicago-Naperville, and Minneapolis-St Paul as options (huh? They aren't in Wisconsin!!) but not Madison which is the Capital and has the University of Wisconsin. So had to select "other" which was odd.

 

[bingybear]

so what does one use for income? If I use taxable income .. . it could be greatly distorted by roth conversions. If spending it may be distorted since DW won't let me spend. If investment returns... who knows? could be way up or down depending on the year

 

[ncbill]

Yeah, like Warren Buffet! He is really frugal, and doesn't spend much on his house or car IIRC.

Not this myth again.

Buffet's home is usually shown from the front, so it doesn't "look" big.

But when you view an aerial shot its size (~6,600 sqft.) is obvious.