It's a Trap! The Keep W*rking Plan

[timo2]

If not for blatant ageism discrimination in the workforce, I would be happy to agree with you. The only place I see 60 year old plus workers anymore is fast food restaurants, servers at Denny's and HD/Lowes.

+1

Yep, the employers (and many coworkers) generally do not want older folks around the office.

 

[bada bing]

Curiously, I work in an industry that would seem to have valid reasons to push older workers out, but certainly does not. I work as a blue collar technician in upstream production for big oil. I currently work remote in Prudhoe bay, Alaska. Most of the postings for my job classification are remote, either offshore, or ex-pat, or places like arctic Alaska. There has been a significant greying of the workforce in the last 10-15 years with the average age approaching 50 now. These are jobs that have pretty strenuous physical requirements, in areas far from logistic support and in pretty adverse environments. They also pay very well, probably the highest paid blue collar jobs in the USA on average. There is no ageism in big oil. Quite the contrary, there seems to be an underlying assumption that younger, inexperienced workers are more of a gamble to hire because they may not stay around to pay off on the training investment required to onboard them. In the past few years, the retiring work peers I've known have averaged around 65, with a few staying on as late as 72. Working at a production oil facility . From what I know of their finances, not a one of them stayed primarily for money reasons. We have a generous pension, 401K match, retiree medical and an average $175K annual income. They stayed because they weren't ready to go, all of them with >20 years company time were at least 401K millionaires, if not multi-millionaires.

I have 30 years experience as a "company man" myself, but have only worked for my current master for 10 years. They hired me at age 50 away from a stable job at a competing major..

Part of the reason I enjoy lurking here is reading about other's experiences in job environments that seem unique and a bit alien to me. There is plenty of big corporation stupidity in big oil, but a lot of the office politics and empires I read about in other worlds don't really exist where I've worked.

 

[revhappy]

Curiously, I work in an industry that would seem to have valid reasons to push older workers out, but certainly does not. I work as a blue collar technician in upstream production for big oil. I currently work remote in Prudhoe bay, Alaska. Most of the postings for my job classification are remote, either offshore, or ex-pat, or places like arctic Alaska. There has been a significant greying of the workforce in the last 10-15 years with the average age approaching 50 now. These are jobs that have pretty strenuous physical requirements, in areas far from logistic support and in pretty adverse environments. They also pay very well, probably the highest paid blue collar jobs in the USA on average. There is no ageism in big oil. Quite the contrary, there seems to be an underlying assumption that younger, inexperienced workers are more of a gamble to hire because they may not stay around to pay off on the training investment required to onboard them. In the past few years, the retiring work peers I've known have averaged around 65, with a few staying on as late as 72. Working at a production oil facility . From what I know of their finances, not a one of them stayed primarily for money reasons. We have a generous pension, 401K match, retiree medical and an average $175K annual income. They stayed because they weren't ready to go, all of them with >20 years company time were at least 401K millionaires, if not multi-millionaires.

I have 30 years experience as a "company man" myself, but have only worked for my current master for 10 years. They hired me at age 50 away from a stable job at a competing major..

Part of the reason I enjoy lurking here is reading about other's experiences in job environments that seem unique and a bit alien to me. There is plenty of big corporation stupidity in big oil, but a lot of the office politics and empires I read about in other worlds don't really exist where I've worked.

Nice to read your story. Thanks for sharing.

 

[jollystomper]

I like my job but if it weren't for health insurance I'd retire tomorrow.

I have many former co-workers who expressed the exact same sentiment. They cannot or do not desire to manipulate their income to qualify for ACA subsidiaries, and are also waiting to reach (or be very close to) Medicare age.

 

[Caskem]

In reality people shouldn't be saving for retirement at 65, they should be saving in case they can't find work again at 50.

That is probably one of the most profound things I've ever read about financial planning. I'm going to quote it extensively.

 

[BOSE]

Love my Job

I consider myself fortunate as I have been in the same industry for 44 years. Had my own company in this industry for 10 of those years. Closed down 20 years ago took a position at age 51 with a private company and still here at 72. Advanced engineering is my forte. Took SS at 70 and now receiving RMD from company pension. Still full time and in excellent health. DW and I have paid off all debt, house in 3 years, and savings still growing. DW had major health issues past 4 years, heart valve, one bypass, whipple, and pacemaker. DW is tough and fully recovered and leading a normal life today. We will retire on SS and company pension. Life is good be happy always and don't let the circumstances take you down. Thanks for sharing your experiences. I also lurk around here and thanks to all for sharing and our company has no time for politics.

 

[Red Badger]

I just watched a 30-something guy unloading 161-pound kegs of beer from a delivery truck. No lift gate. He struggled to get the keg down from the bed, which was about 5 feet off the ground, and onto a hand truck. I don't think he'll be able to handle this when he's 50, much less 65.

I had a similar joy in my mid-30's. Temping at a cabinet factory. A truck shows up with pallets of 3/4" veneered particle board. 60 sheets per pallet. A half dozen pallets. Each sheet weighed approx 75 lbs. No forklift. I was the hand truck. One sheet at a time. The assigned warehouse location was about 50 feet from the dock door. Made for a long day.

 

[broadway]

If not for blatant ageism discrimination in the workforce, I would be happy to agree with you. The only place I see 60 year old plus workers anymore is fast food restaurants, servers at Denny's and HD/Lowes.

And yet, this ageism discrimination is practiced by those who should know better as in they'd be on the opposite side if it happened to them.


The hiring manager for the job I interviewed for earlier this year was about my age but with a PhD. I guess he feels that makes him immune to being me!


That entire division mainly hires "youngsters".




Another place for seniors --- retail. I was at Dollar Tree today. The cashier must have been in her 60s.
I am also working part-time in retail.



.

 

[HMMY]

Age discrimination is rampant in finance. During the Great Recession, I saw so many lose their jobs. Many of those in their 40s and 50s in senior positions were never able to get back on the treadmill. That was when I realized that I may not have a choice to continue working and started supersaving, allowing me to retire at 52 rather than wait to be retired. Once I was FI, I offered to be laid off, but I had to pull the trigger myself after my offers were ignored.

 

[Ivan_Yackenov]

I turned 61 this past June and have 2 retirements that will kick in at 65 (Boeing Aerospace and SC State Gov). They will not mature past that point.
I'm an IT Director and my wife is an RN (Oncology). We are both in great health, mostly due to genetics.
I plan to retire at age 66 1/2 (FQSSB).

Our primary home will be paid off next year and we both have 401k's, totaling in the low to mid $600k range.

A few years ago I purchased a wheeled skid steer, back hoe and trencher to improve our property at our 2nd home in the North GA mountains.
This home is 2 hours away from our primary home in upstate SC.

The reason I've mentioned the locations is this; there are a lot of cheap properties here in SC where the textile mills closed down years ago.
They are semi-small lots and most of the houses are pretty run down from age and the fact that "Mill Hill" houses were never really built to last.

The closest Mill Hill is about 5 miles from us and it's easy enough for me to transport my equipment to and from.
However our 2nd (vacation) home requires maintenance and yard care from late April through early November.
I'd like to convince my wife that we should sell it (about $150k in equity) and purchase 2 Mill Hill houses with enough extra cash to update both of those homes and turn them into revenue generators.
She bought our vacation home with some inherited money so it is her call.
I've casually mentioned the prospect to her and she seems to be coming around, however she isn't the clown that has to drive up there every other weekend to do yard maintenance, which is 2 acres on a heavily sloped front yard (rear acreage is mostly trees).

So my question is this: How do I convince her to sell the N. GA house and buy rental properties closer to home?

 

[Milton]

65 today isn't the 65 of 30 years ago. There's no reason some people couldn't work past 65, if they want or need to.

"Some" people, sure. But as Marko, mystang52 and brucethebroker have noted, the great majority will find that age discrimination poses a serious problem after they pass the 50 year mark, if indeed not earlier. It's wrong; it's illegal; it's extremely common.

Most employers view 65 as past well over-the-hill. This attitude has not improved since 1988 (if anything, 'youth culture' and 'tech' have made it much worse).

the janitor at mediumCorp is pushing 90. Works PT 4hrs in the AM everyday. Even in the blizzards. I've been meaning to ask why, but don't feel it's appropriate.

You're right, that would certainly be inappropriate and disrespectful. But it wouldn't be wrong to strike up the odd conversation and show sincere interest in him/her as a person. That may, or may not, lead to information being volunteered.

A long time friend of the family ran out of short-term disability after being on it for 18 years.

18 years: long-term disability, surely?

 

[googily]

Once I was FI, I offered to be laid off, but I had to pull the trigger myself after my offers were ignored.

This is me! Please, fire me! Make this decision for me!

I've decided it would make a good comedy--what do you have to do to get fired if you've told Megacorp to lay you off but all the bosses think you are just grief-stricken and not thinking clearly?

Okay, fine, keep paying me, then.

 

[RunningBum]

Originally Posted by marko
In reality people shouldn't be saving for retirement at 65, they should be saving in case they can't find work again at 50.

That is probably one of the most profound things I've ever read about financial planning. I'm going to quote it extensively.

I agree, and it has changed my perception. I had been thinking that if people wanted to choose to work to 65 and beyond, there's no problem with not putting away money for early retirement like almost all of us did. But marko is right, you may not actually have that choice, so it's in your best interests to be prepared for forced early retirement, or at least limited income.

 

[corn18]

Is it really agism or I cost too muchism?

 

[UnrealizedPotential]

There are a lot of good comments in this thread. Part of my drive to save as much money as I could, especially after I turned 40 was because of the possibility, even if remote, that my position in the company could change for the worst. It was a rough business and it wasn't unheard of that one suddenly found himself in a tough position.


I think that fear of the unknown played a bigger factor towards motivation as to the desire to save money and invest it than I realized when I was working. It was one of the prime motivators for me. The others of course were that I disliked the people I worked with, and the hours I worked, etc.

 

[HI Bill]

Is it really agism or I cost too muchism?

It can be both! When Lowes bought out Eagle Harware and Garden, they fired a large percentage of senior staff, replacing them with much cheaper entry level staff. I'm sure it hurt customer service intially, but helped their bottom line.

In my consulting industry, many staff work through their late 60s as senior project managers, but this is probably an anomaly. I'm fearful for a programmer friend who works for a great company, but at around 50, I perceive him as an antiquated dinosaur...he can't keep up with the current skill set, but is more of a thought leader, which, IMHO, the younger staff need.

 

[Amethyst]

I've worked with a few over-50's who are both. Ironically, they either get lured away by Megas who offer multiple times their gov't salary, or they start their own companies and bring some of the younger employees along with them.

.he can't keep up with the current skill set, but is more of a thought leader,

 

[marko]

That is probably one of the most profound things I've ever read about financial planning. I'm going to quote it extensively.

Originally Posted by marko
In reality people shouldn't be saving for retirement at 65, they should be saving in case they can't find work again at 50.

I agree, and it has changed my perception. I had been thinking that if people wanted to choose to work to 65 and beyond, there's no problem with not putting away money for early retirement like almost all of us did. But marko is right, you may not actually have that choice, so it's in your best interests to be prepared for forced early retirement, or at least limited income.

Why, thank you both!

The flip side is that if you plan on an involuntary retirement at 50 and you don't, you're likely 15 years ahead of where you'd be if you were saving for 65.

As noted, I was unable to find work at age 53 after an involuntary (but obscenely lucrative) departure from my old job.

 

[Dtail]

Why, thank you both!

The flip side is that if you plan on an involuntary retirement at 50 and you don't, you're likely 15 years ahead of where you'd be if you were saving for 65.

As noted, I was unable to find work at age 53 after an involuntary (but obscenely lucrative) departure from my old job.

Couldn't find work at 56 from a voluntary (beat them to the punch) separation, but 1 year salary and medical coverage then led to discovery of FIRE.

 

[timo2]

There's always Uber!

Seriously, most of us here were able to stop working with some level of certainty.

The harsh reality, as I found out personally, is that once you're over 55-60, your chances of getting a 'real' job are pretty slim; that's how you end up at Chick Fila.

If for some reason you lose that $100K management job at 58 and you have nothing financially to back you up, you're in deep doo doo friend.

Another thread talks about a percentage of folk who are bankrupted by health issues. I suspect there's a larger group out there who got blindsided by having to suddenly find a new job at 55.

In reality people shouldn't be saving for retirement at 65, they should be saving in case they can't find work again at 50.

I had a stellar resume, a huge name in the industry and thousands of contacts. At 53, I never even got a chance for an interview outside of two courtesy meets. When the recruiter you hire tells you to leave the year you graduated college off your resume, you know it's real.

Not every ER is voluntary. Mine wasn't, not by any stretch but I was [-]lucky[/-] smart enough to have planned ahead.

+1
absolutely. DW and I realized this when My FIL was laid off at 50 something from an aerospace vendor in the 1980's and never regained full employment. He bagged groceries for a while, but that was it. But he had never LBYM and he and his spouse had a difficult time the next 20 years.

That was when DW and I were in our 30's , and we decided then we would not be broke when we were old.

 

[Milton]

My father was laid off when he was 49, and I remember him worrying endlessly about what to do. He and my stay-at-home mother had practiced LBYM so the family was not destitute; but it was a very stressful time for all of us, especially him.

This experience seared itself on my 18-year-old subconscious. Thereafter, I was always well aware that 'bad things can happen to good people'; that no employee has job security; and that it was necessary to prepare for possible job loss by saving, investing and building a nest egg. It was a major factor in reaching FIRE by my mid-40s.

 

[cyber888]

I was forced out of work at 52.5 years old with a $130K pay, but knew it was coming 10 months in advance. I applied and interviewed - some never interviewed me or I never heard back from them. I guess I'm too old. Glad I was able to start a new job at 53 yrs old paying $120k, a small paycut but they want my expertise. Now turning 55, and getting a 2nd salary increase .. back to a $130K pay. I realize that I feel very luck getting this job, and I didn't have to move, because this new job is just a 20 minute drive from my house. My old job was 15 minutes away. In 1.5 - 2.5 years, I'm ready to FIRE. But if I'm out of a job in a year, FIRECALC says I'm 98%-99% fine for a retirement to my mid-90s. I really understand and feel bad for people who are forced out of work between 50-58 and could not find a job. It's always good to be financially independent once you hit your 50s. Age discrimination and work discrimination is real, no matter how good you are at your job. LBYM and Aggressively Saving for Retirement is a a Life Saver.

 

[Oz investor]

18 years: long-term disability, surely?

if things go to plan ... i will be assessed for a rehab program in 2022 .

if they don't , the obvious options are ...1. a replacement stent ( the current one will be re-absorbed in 2020 [ ish ] ) 2. bypass surgery ( best of luck guessing what type ) 3 a heart transplant ( with or without lung/lungs is a sub-issue ), 4. a funeral for which i have made some plans for ( and not the usual types of plans ).

the BIG question is what sort of work would they train me for ?

professional patient for disaster training scenarios ? ( at least medical help will be close by )

entertainment critic ?

 

[ER Eddie]

It's a bummer to hear all the stories of being unable to find work after 50 or 60. I'll be retiring at 58, and I'd like the option of returning to some form of work (not McDonalds or Lowe's), if that's what I want to do in the future. It doesn't sound good. Otoh, I believe this may vary somewhat by profession, and perhaps I'm in a field (mental health) that is a little less prone to age discrimination than tech, finance, or management (which is where most of the people here seem to come from, unless I miss my guess).


Also, I wanted to point something out about the OP, which I didn't see anyone comment on. From the OP:

"Consider this: 53% of workers expect to work beyond age 65 to make ends meet, according to the Transamerica Center for Retirement Studies. Yet, you can't count on being able to bring in a paycheck if you need it. While more than half of today's workers plan to continue working in retirement, just 1 in 5 Americans age 65 and over are actually employed, according to U.S. Department of Labor statistics."


They say that 1 in 5 people over 65 work, and the implication is that many others want to work (to "make ends meet") but cannot find employment. I don't think that follows. They'd have to survey what people over 65 want, but they didn't do that. They're only talking about what people under 65 expect to want, when they turn 65. Many of those people are in their 20s or 30s and have no idea what they'll want when they're over 65. Maybe the 4 out of 5 people over 65 who are not working simply don't want to work. At least not at the jobs that are available.

 

[candidman]

It's a bummer to hear all the stories of being unable to find work after 50 or 60. I'll be retiring at 58, and I'd like the option of returning to some form of work (not McDonalds or Lowe's), if that's what I want to do in the future. It doesn't sound good. Otoh, I believe this may vary somewhat by profession, and perhaps I'm in a field (mental health) that is a little less prone to age discrimination than tech, finance, or management (which is where most of the people here seem to come from, unless I miss my guess).


Also, I wanted to point something out about the OP, which I didn't see anyone comment on. From the OP:

"Consider this: 53% of workers expect to work beyond age 65 to make ends meet, according to the Transamerica Center for Retirement Studies. Yet, you can't count on being able to bring in a paycheck if you need it. While more than half of today's workers plan to continue working in retirement, just 1 in 5 Americans age 65 and over are actually employed, according to U.S. Department of Labor statistics."


They say that 1 in 5 people over 65 work, and the implication is that many others want to work (to "make ends meet") but cannot find employment. I don't think that follows. They'd have to survey what people over 65 want, but they didn't do that. They're only talking about what people under 65 expect to want, when they turn 65. Many of those people are in their 20s or 30s and have no idea what they'll want when they're over 65. Maybe the 4 out of 5 people over 65 who are not working simply don't want to work. At least not at the jobs that are available.

I can't see too many people really wanting to work pass 65, when you have so much discrimination, harassment (bullying), back stabbing, firing, and you can't do anything but watch, or be a victim, or be retaliated against as a whistleblower, or even worst, be one of the perpetrators of this nonsense. I've held blue collar and white collar jobs, and none of those jobs ever been free of this. Since I've been retired, I understand the difference between working, and having to go to work on a job. They can have the job. I'd rather work, which could mean getting paid or volunteering, as long as I do what I want, when I want. If I go back to a job, it would only be because I need the money, especially if I go back on the clock. This is just my opinion.

I forgot to mention people going back to work on their feet past 65, especially if they've been doing sedentary jobs. There should be 0% willing to do that, unless they have to, which is sad, even if they're pass 55 or 60. And people who do last working on their feet past 65, stand a good chance needing hip or knee replacement sooner or later, if they haven't had health issues already. Then you have studies highlighting negative health affects coming from too many years of sedentary work. Like you were saying, a person in their 20's and 30's probably won't see it the same way in their 50's and 60's.